A cable running down the valley, will require you to reroute the throttle cable, originally running via the driver side of the bulkhead. Rerouting is for sure doable, but something to keep in mind...
Cory, love the write up on the Webers and the manifold. Wish you lived closer....I'd love to do the IDF also. That maifold is very nice. Whats the costs? The VW crowd uses the 48IDA's a lot. I have a few friends that have a VW Bug and Carmen Ghia that do 12.20'S and 11.25 in the quarter both using two IDA on 2300cc motors. They've figured out how to make them work.
I'm trying to visualize the routing for the throttle cable to IDA's or IDF's on a Pantera. I had a set of 48 IDA's on a small block chevy that was a right hand drive mid engine CanAm car. The linkage is definitely the the #1 or #2 issue. You can get the IDA's to work on a V8, and they can be made to transition from the low to high circuit pretty well even without the additional transition hole. I will say that I have had no experience with the IDF's but would think that that would be a better way to go based on some of my experience with IDA's..
The linkage on my car came back from the driver (right hand drive) along the right side of the drivers seat, then once past the firewall started to to make a gradual up turn to the outside of the car, then back toward the center of the car and then connected in middle of the front and back IDA on the right side. It was attached with a tripod like mount that connected at the top and bottom of the two IDA's...the cable angle worked well and because of it's location didn't take any fancy bell cranks or other mechanisms....the arms on the IDA's throttle shafts were all the same length and the way the linkage was set up pulled identically on all four carbs. Even with that the linkage was finicky...it tended to need a frequent adjustment to keep all the carbs in sync at idle...once they were there it ran great, but seemed to get out of adjustment often, possibly because there was a decent sized spring to keep eight throttle butterfly's closed and could have been too strong therefore pulling too hard on the linkage which could pull it out of adjustment. It was a stiff pedal, but there is no way around that. I remember distinctly saying to myself I'd love to have a nice four barrel carb to eliminate the constant adjustments. Not sure if there is a way to stop an individual runner carb like this from the need for constant adjustment. By nature with four separate mechanism working on two cylinders each, they all must be spot on to work well at idle and just off idle. Visualize four two cylinder engines working together with the same crankshaft, but separately when they are out of adjustment. Possibly the Pantara throttle cable is a light enough cable that you don't need to have such a strong spring to close the throttles. Mine was a solid cable that was about 3/8" diameter on the outside and required a fair bit of oomph when bent to make it actuate. I've seen these cables used a lot in marine usage for engines and transmissions. A heavy pedal is also not the best thing for gentle throttle modulation in a road car during cornering.
I'm trying to visualize the routing for the throttle cable to IDA's or IDF's on a Pantera. I had a set of 48 IDA's on a small block chevy that was a right hand drive mid engine CanAm car. The linkage is definitely the the #1 or #2 issue. You can get the IDA's to work on a V8, and they can be made to transition from the low to high circuit pretty well even without the additional transition hole. I will say that I have had no experience with the IDF's but would think that that would be a better way to go based on some of my experience with IDA's..
The linkage on my car came back from the driver (right hand drive) along the right side of the drivers seat, then once past the firewall started to to make a gradual up turn to the outside of the car, then back toward the center of the car and then connected in middle of the front and back IDA on the right side. It was attached with a tripod like mount that connected at the top and bottom of the two IDA's...the cable angle worked well and because of it's location didn't take any fancy bell cranks or other mechanisms....the arms on the IDA's throttle shafts were all the same length and the way the linkage was set up pulled identically on all four carbs. Even with that the linkage was finicky...it tended to need a frequent adjustment to keep all the carbs in sync at idle...once they were there it ran great, but seemed to get out of adjustment often, possibly because there was a decent sized spring to keep eight throttle butterfly's closed and could have been too strong therefore pulling too hard on the linkage which could pull it out of adjustment. It was a stiff pedal, but there is no way around that. I remember distinctly saying to myself I'd love to have a nice four barrel carb to eliminate the constant adjustments. Not sure if there is a way to stop an individual runner carb like this from the need for constant adjustment. By nature with four separate mechanism working on two cylinders each, they all must be spot on to work well at idle and just off idle. Visualize four two cylinder engines working together with the same crankshaft, but separately when they are out of adjustment. Possibly the Pantara throttle cable is a light enough cable that you don't need to have such a strong spring to close the throttles. Mine was a solid cable that was about 3/8" diameter on the outside and required a fair bit of oomph when bent to make it actuate. I've seen these cables used a lot in marine usage for engines and transmissions. A heavy pedal is also not the best thing for gentle throttle modulation in a road car during cornering.
Kid, if I recall correctly, the throttle cable links up to the driver side of the stock autolite carb. About maybe 3-4 inches from the center point of the 351. I would think one would not run into any issues running a cable down the valley.
More to come- stay tuned as I'm working on Part II presently. I have more pictures of a carb I have now and pics of the bare manifold from Brian (72pantera).
Tom, the manifold is a bit steep- $925 AUD. The IDF's are cheaper than IDA's, expect to pay around $400 or a little less per carb. Then you have other parts. I'll go over a lot of this in my blog.
I plan to buy a manifold from Aussiespeed this year and stash it while I finish bodywork.
Tom, the manifold is a bit steep- $925 AUD. The IDF's are cheaper than IDA's, expect to pay around $400 or a little less per carb. Then you have other parts. I'll go over a lot of this in my blog.
I plan to buy a manifold from Aussiespeed this year and stash it while I finish bodywork.
We should resurrect the group buy, I'm still in and we needed Mark at AussieSpeed said 5 to get a discount, and we may be able to save on shipping, especially if most of the group are going to be at the fun rally?
I'd be interested in the group buy.
I posted another part to my Weber IDF series.
Even more to come. I want to share what I've learned since there's so little good info in one place on the internet on this subject.
I posted another part to my Weber IDF series.
Even more to come. I want to share what I've learned since there's so little good info in one place on the internet on this subject.
I don't remember the exact price, but I know I got a little bit of a deal from Mark. I think after converting to USD it was about $930USD and he tossed in shipping. Not to bad I guess, 950AUD is just shy of 1000USD currently.
Also, as I'm sure these are not a hot commodity, mine needed to be cast before hand. This took about 4 weeks or so including the machining after. I didn't really mind as I wasn't rushing to drop however many thousand at once on the setup.
Also, as I'm sure these are not a hot commodity, mine needed to be cast before hand. This took about 4 weeks or so including the machining after. I didn't really mind as I wasn't rushing to drop however many thousand at once on the setup.
Interesting to look at the different complete kits out there...with most there's almost a $2000 markup for 351c setups with IDA or IDF compared to small block chevy setup....can it really cost $1500-2000 more for the manifold for a 351C? This Ausie manifold at $950-1000 seems like a deal, with carbs...I saw new IDF's on ebay for $375. A few of the kits mentioned that the carbs had been modified for low to mid range response.
quote:Originally posted by 72pantera:
Kid, if I recall correctly, the throttle cable links up to the driver side of the stock autolite carb. About maybe 3-4 inches from the center point of the 351. I would think one would not run into any issues running a cable down the valley.
Don't forget the distributor, cooling pipe, advance hose etc... Sure doable, but the more bends in the throttle cable, the less smooth it will work. After all, the engine was designed with a front engined car in mind...
quote:Originally posted by Kid:quote:Originally posted by 72pantera:
Kid, if I recall correctly, the throttle cable links up to the driver side of the stock autolite carb. About maybe 3-4 inches from the center point of the 351. I would think one would not run into any issues running a cable down the valley.
Don't forget the distributor, cooling pipe, advance hose etc... Sure doable, but the more bends in the throttle cable, the less smooth it will work. After all, the engine was designed with a front engined car in mind...
With IDA's you need to modify the stock throttle cable so it is flexible to run down the center valley since it is not possible to get to the center linkage tower in a straight line.
You also need to add travel to the cable also.
Stock it is only 1-3/8". You will need a minimum of 1-5/8" if not 1-3/4" of cable throttle.
For that, you have to modify the carb end of the cable by disassembling it and removing the 7/16 od hard tube inside it.
I would think the IDF's will have the same issue.
As promised.
The ignition advice you refer to in this blog is correct.
Simplest way is to go to a Ford solid state distributor and the Pantera Electronics ignition controller. Put a small cap on it so it fits. Your choice of coils. It will give you everything that is recommended and more.
Simplest combination of fuel pumps is just to add a Holley mechanical, plus a Holley electric with the Holley fuel pressure regulator and either 3/8" hard lines or -6 Aeroquip.
The P-E ignition controller has a special ramping and carb priming feature just for the electric pump.
You will have to run the engine to adjust the regulator to give you a maximum of 3 psi while running. No more then that.
You also need to change the stock Weber inlet fuel valves to the Jay Cee high pressure glass ball valves otherwise you will flood the first time you shut the hot engine off. AND, you will flood BIG TIME! Just like Niagara Falls, but with gasoline shooting EVERYWHERE!
So mount the regulator where you can easily reach it while the engine is running and away from the headers and even the potential of leaking liquid fuel down on any hot surface. Flash fires can be lethal.
If you are lucky, just your hair and eyebrows will instantly get singed off. If you aren't, you could wind up looking like Nikki Lauda...if you live that is?
The RX7 people have always had issues with the Webers containing enough volume in the fuel bowls and regularly modify them for greater volume.
In my experience this has never been a problem with running 8 stack Webers on an American V8.
IF this was going to be a regular problem, then you are using the wrong carburetor.
Run the new EMPI 51mm IDA's with the increased fuel bowl volumes. 11% more.
The only issue with that carb is going to be that the supplied chokes, 45mm, are really too large for the street and need to be throated down to about 42mm (which is still big for the street)
You have to work out which is the best combination of variables both with the type of carb and the tuning of them. Even with IDF's.
Nothing is going to be perfect and even if you buy a set of carbs "already set up" for you, you still need to "adjust" them to your tastes.
There is still a lot of work to do with a pre-built set up for you.
If you have never driven a car already set up with Webers, you will never understand the variables until you do. Most people will be mesmerized. It just isn't what they expect.
That's just the way it is.
I was fortunate in the first Weber set up I drove was in a yellow '71 Pantera.
It ran effortlessly, started instantaneously and pulled nose to nose with a 427 S/C. The only mistake is that I didn't buy the thing for $15,000. It had a the Australian "NASCAR" block in it too.
That definitely helped me understand what they did to the drive-ability of the car and infected me with a Weber virus that you can not cure.
Sometimes it's like Malaria and you just get a flare up and a fever. I'm definitely bent for life as a result.
Simplest way is to go to a Ford solid state distributor and the Pantera Electronics ignition controller. Put a small cap on it so it fits. Your choice of coils. It will give you everything that is recommended and more.
Simplest combination of fuel pumps is just to add a Holley mechanical, plus a Holley electric with the Holley fuel pressure regulator and either 3/8" hard lines or -6 Aeroquip.
The P-E ignition controller has a special ramping and carb priming feature just for the electric pump.
You will have to run the engine to adjust the regulator to give you a maximum of 3 psi while running. No more then that.
You also need to change the stock Weber inlet fuel valves to the Jay Cee high pressure glass ball valves otherwise you will flood the first time you shut the hot engine off. AND, you will flood BIG TIME! Just like Niagara Falls, but with gasoline shooting EVERYWHERE!
So mount the regulator where you can easily reach it while the engine is running and away from the headers and even the potential of leaking liquid fuel down on any hot surface. Flash fires can be lethal.
If you are lucky, just your hair and eyebrows will instantly get singed off. If you aren't, you could wind up looking like Nikki Lauda...if you live that is?
The RX7 people have always had issues with the Webers containing enough volume in the fuel bowls and regularly modify them for greater volume.
In my experience this has never been a problem with running 8 stack Webers on an American V8.
IF this was going to be a regular problem, then you are using the wrong carburetor.
Run the new EMPI 51mm IDA's with the increased fuel bowl volumes. 11% more.
The only issue with that carb is going to be that the supplied chokes, 45mm, are really too large for the street and need to be throated down to about 42mm (which is still big for the street)
You have to work out which is the best combination of variables both with the type of carb and the tuning of them. Even with IDF's.
Nothing is going to be perfect and even if you buy a set of carbs "already set up" for you, you still need to "adjust" them to your tastes.
There is still a lot of work to do with a pre-built set up for you.
If you have never driven a car already set up with Webers, you will never understand the variables until you do. Most people will be mesmerized. It just isn't what they expect.
That's just the way it is.
I was fortunate in the first Weber set up I drove was in a yellow '71 Pantera.
It ran effortlessly, started instantaneously and pulled nose to nose with a 427 S/C. The only mistake is that I didn't buy the thing for $15,000. It had a the Australian "NASCAR" block in it too.
That definitely helped me understand what they did to the drive-ability of the car and infected me with a Weber virus that you can not cure.
Sometimes it's like Malaria and you just get a flare up and a fever. I'm definitely bent for life as a result.
So I got my linkage today, what do you know, they sent me the wrong one! I requested center pull, and I got the side mount. Any thoughts on if I could make it work, or maybe if it's even better?
quote:Originally posted by 72pantera:
So I got my linkage today, what do you know, they sent me the wrong one! I requested center pull, and I got the side mount. Any thoughts on if I could make it work, or maybe if it's even better?
For the Pantera a side pull isn't better. The center mount is the best solution.
You can make it work, but the side mount is really for a front engined car.
Send me the whole set up. I'll make you a center pull throttle.
figured i would share...webers coming along nicely
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The Webers-on-a-Pantera subject comes up every few years. I have adapted various Webers to several cars, including V-8s. It is not simple to get both power and decent fuel mileage. One or the other is the norm.... First- in IDAs, there are five jets, two air bleeds and a replaceable emulsion tube & venturi- per cylinder- and they all affect each other during engine operation. The last time I checked, the cheapest jet was $6 USD. It is possible to tune them at home with primitive tools. It is also possible to go broke doing so. If you have never been involved with a set you already own and are impatent to use them, find and pay an expert. He will need the entire car or at least the whole engine on a dyno stand, for perhaps a month.
Second, Weber/Italy stopped making carbs in 1985, switching to EFI. There is a Spanish subsidiary that now remakes a few models, but most are Chinese/Taiwan/Indian copies that are known to leak thru poorly done castings. Be wary of E-Bay Webers! There are ways to ID genuine carbs but it's not real easy.
Finally, genuine NOS Webers have been on the shelf for 30+ years, so all o-rings, gaskets and the ball bearings in the throttles are bone dry & have shrunken. They will likely all need a rebuilding even if they're still in the OEM bags & boxes. On a 5.7-L V-8, 48s are about the smallest Webers you should try IMHO. 50s, 52s and even larger are second-mortgage territory for most of us. I know little about the giant "Webers" built entirely in CA and used on hotrod VW sand rails, some of which use 454 Chev-sized pistons.
As for IR- EFI, the neatest rig I know of uses 48IDA carbs with dummy fuel feeds & the venturis removed, as throttle bodies for hidden EFI systems. People that can build such things are even more 'special' than good carb tuners, and more pricy. Owners who want the vintage look and modern performance don't mind paying. One GT-40 owner has had a fabricator working on his 'real' Weber/EFI system for about 5 years.
Second, Weber/Italy stopped making carbs in 1985, switching to EFI. There is a Spanish subsidiary that now remakes a few models, but most are Chinese/Taiwan/Indian copies that are known to leak thru poorly done castings. Be wary of E-Bay Webers! There are ways to ID genuine carbs but it's not real easy.
Finally, genuine NOS Webers have been on the shelf for 30+ years, so all o-rings, gaskets and the ball bearings in the throttles are bone dry & have shrunken. They will likely all need a rebuilding even if they're still in the OEM bags & boxes. On a 5.7-L V-8, 48s are about the smallest Webers you should try IMHO. 50s, 52s and even larger are second-mortgage territory for most of us. I know little about the giant "Webers" built entirely in CA and used on hotrod VW sand rails, some of which use 454 Chev-sized pistons.
As for IR- EFI, the neatest rig I know of uses 48IDA carbs with dummy fuel feeds & the venturis removed, as throttle bodies for hidden EFI systems. People that can build such things are even more 'special' than good carb tuners, and more pricy. Owners who want the vintage look and modern performance don't mind paying. One GT-40 owner has had a fabricator working on his 'real' Weber/EFI system for about 5 years.
The simplest thing to do is call up Jim Inglese, tell what you have and buy a jetting package from him.
The tuning discussions all seems ironic to me. I set up my first set of Webers on a Boss 351 in 1980 with the help of Jim Inglese. He was a "head hunter" back then as a profession and an amateur tuner and had bought boxes of jets and was willing to help out.
He literally lent me every combination between 1.10 and 2.00 fuel and air correctors. Only a few immulsion tubes, F7 (which I already had), F5, F11, F15.
Chokes 37 (which I already had) 40, 42 AND 44!
The idles were limited then because there was only one jet holder, a 1.20.
Pump jet bypass valves, blank .40, .70, .80, .90, and 1.00.
It took me about 4 weeks working every day, weather permitting.
Who was I to argue or refuse such a deal?
I am going through the jetting on this setup again now simply for one reason.
So many people have gone to tuners who have put them on dynos and come up with set ups that are different enough from mine, share the tune specs, that I need to try those tunes.
How can I argue with a dyno tune right?
I can say one thing with reasonable certainty. The wheel is round. The sun still comes up in the morning and water is wet.
My setup is right, or that's as right as you can get them. IF the tunes given to me are for real, than SOME of these dyno geniuses are just plain full of s h i t.
The only thing I can not speak for is how the larger bore IDA's work. I'd like to try the 51mm EMPI but the Hall manifold needs to be ported for them and if it sucks, there is no going back. Manifolds have become very pricey lately.
Bosswrench is referring to remarks that have been made by the Shelby race team that 48ida's were showing that they were a little small for the 289's. Restrictive is the term they used.
THEORETICALLY the bore of the carb should match the size of the intake valve. With a 351 that's something like 53 mm. 48's are way too small for a 427. The 58IDA's were made for the 427 Fords. It is said only four sets were made.
There is no way you can run the idles as lean as some say they are. The exhausts will pop. Pop is an understatement. You will blow the baffles completely out of the mufflers.
I have some old Walker Turbo mufflers that got blown out that way.
You can't run as heavy on the street with main jets as some say. The ratio is correct but the volume of fuel is for running flat out at LeMans FOR 24 HOURS!
With the IDA's the third transition hole helps, but sometimes it is still there. Depends on the weather?
I think that most of the problem with IDA's in the past, now, and in the future is a very simple one. New Weber owners have no idea what this setup entails, and they just presume that it is going to make THEIR 289 (or substitute your CID here) like a full race boogie 427.
Know what? Bunk! It ain't going to happen.
You are going to have a heavy idle (like a 750dp Holley), you are going to have fuel reversion (even with a special cam), some days the transistion flat spot will still be there and they are going to change with the weather. One day nice, next day miserable.
8 stacks are racing setups, pure and simple, with all the rights and privledges. PERIOD. Guys like Inglese have made them streetable...sometimes only marginally.
I don't think it really matters much if they are IDF's or IDA's?
Simplify your life, buy the tune from Inglese. He knows what he's doing. If "you" don't like the Webers after that, simply put, they aren't for you, because that's how they are.
Incidentally 72Pantera, very nice set up. Setting them up from scratch for me is great fun. Hope you enjoy it too?
Best of luck and enjoyment with them.
The tuning discussions all seems ironic to me. I set up my first set of Webers on a Boss 351 in 1980 with the help of Jim Inglese. He was a "head hunter" back then as a profession and an amateur tuner and had bought boxes of jets and was willing to help out.
He literally lent me every combination between 1.10 and 2.00 fuel and air correctors. Only a few immulsion tubes, F7 (which I already had), F5, F11, F15.
Chokes 37 (which I already had) 40, 42 AND 44!
The idles were limited then because there was only one jet holder, a 1.20.
Pump jet bypass valves, blank .40, .70, .80, .90, and 1.00.
It took me about 4 weeks working every day, weather permitting.
Who was I to argue or refuse such a deal?
I am going through the jetting on this setup again now simply for one reason.
So many people have gone to tuners who have put them on dynos and come up with set ups that are different enough from mine, share the tune specs, that I need to try those tunes.
How can I argue with a dyno tune right?
I can say one thing with reasonable certainty. The wheel is round. The sun still comes up in the morning and water is wet.
My setup is right, or that's as right as you can get them. IF the tunes given to me are for real, than SOME of these dyno geniuses are just plain full of s h i t.
The only thing I can not speak for is how the larger bore IDA's work. I'd like to try the 51mm EMPI but the Hall manifold needs to be ported for them and if it sucks, there is no going back. Manifolds have become very pricey lately.
Bosswrench is referring to remarks that have been made by the Shelby race team that 48ida's were showing that they were a little small for the 289's. Restrictive is the term they used.
THEORETICALLY the bore of the carb should match the size of the intake valve. With a 351 that's something like 53 mm. 48's are way too small for a 427. The 58IDA's were made for the 427 Fords. It is said only four sets were made.
There is no way you can run the idles as lean as some say they are. The exhausts will pop. Pop is an understatement. You will blow the baffles completely out of the mufflers.
I have some old Walker Turbo mufflers that got blown out that way.
You can't run as heavy on the street with main jets as some say. The ratio is correct but the volume of fuel is for running flat out at LeMans FOR 24 HOURS!
With the IDA's the third transition hole helps, but sometimes it is still there. Depends on the weather?
I think that most of the problem with IDA's in the past, now, and in the future is a very simple one. New Weber owners have no idea what this setup entails, and they just presume that it is going to make THEIR 289 (or substitute your CID here) like a full race boogie 427.
Know what? Bunk! It ain't going to happen.
You are going to have a heavy idle (like a 750dp Holley), you are going to have fuel reversion (even with a special cam), some days the transistion flat spot will still be there and they are going to change with the weather. One day nice, next day miserable.
8 stacks are racing setups, pure and simple, with all the rights and privledges. PERIOD. Guys like Inglese have made them streetable...sometimes only marginally.
I don't think it really matters much if they are IDF's or IDA's?
Simplify your life, buy the tune from Inglese. He knows what he's doing. If "you" don't like the Webers after that, simply put, they aren't for you, because that's how they are.
Incidentally 72Pantera, very nice set up. Setting them up from scratch for me is great fun. Hope you enjoy it too?
Best of luck and enjoyment with them.
PanteraDoug, thanks for the compliment, they are 48IDF's if you are wondering. I must be honest, I'm not actually setting them up from scratch myself. I got most of the parts of the set up together and took it to my local shop, they do great work. It actually wasn't too hard to get most of the stuff. Linkage was kind of a pain to sort out, mainly just the waiting for some parts that are in small production batches. Talked to Jim; great guy, big help. Bosswrench, it is clear that you are just hating on webers, maybe they are not your thing, maybe you had a bad experience with them. That being said, if you wish to carry on with your unsolicited put down of webers,I suggest starting another thread. A majorly of individuals in this thread are excited to start/complete there own weber project.
quote:Originally posted by 72pantera:
PanteraDoug, thanks for the compliment, they are 48IDF's if you are wondering. I must be honest, I'm not actually setting them up from scratch myself. I got most of the parts of the set up together and took it to my local shop, they do great work. It actually wasn't too hard to get most of the stuff. Linkage was kind of a pain to sort out, mainly just the waiting for some parts that are in small production batches. Talked to Jim; great guy, big help. Bosswrench, it is clear that you are just hating on webers, maybe they are not your thing, maybe you had a bad experience with them. That being said, if you wish to carry on with your unsolicited put down of webers,I suggest starting another thread. A majorly of individuals in this thread are excited to start/complete there own weber project.
Hating them? No not at all. As I said, you can't understand until you have run them. Webers I suppose are a love/hate relationship?
I've been running them on my car for quite a while, since about 1980. IDA's though.
I'll take the hint and stay out of your discussions from now on. No problem.
Best of luck with them.