What do you guys think of...

Josh, if you add twin blowers to your car, you'll end up with something that's obnoxiously wild.

(you WERE looking for validation, weren't you?)

Fred Terry supercharged his GT5S and it was a beautiful, compact job (as I recall, he can still use the trunk insert and has stock engine covers). He's quite an engineer, and would be good to discuss the options with.

Good luck!

Thank you Mark!! I didn't consider supercharching.

Is Fred Terry on this board? Fred?

Josh

quote:

Originally posted by JK:
Thank you Mark!! I didn't consider supercharching.

Is Fred Terry on this board? Fred?

Josh

Josh,

Fred removed his system.

Mike

Correction: September 14, 2005

Fred is still running his duel superchargers and they are running well. After a recent cam change, he will be back to the chassis dyno next week looking for 500hp at rear wheels. The most recent POCA Profiles features his car and the magazine's rear cover to show the engine.

I may have confused this with Forest Goodhart that took out his blower engine and went with a big block.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by http://www.PanteraPlace.com:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JK:
Thank you Mark!! I didn't consider supercharching.

Is Fred Terry on this board? Fred?

Josh

Mike,

Oh wise one....
Why do you think Fred abandoned SC'ing?

thanks, Mike.
Josh

I think it would be easier to pull off a twin turbo than it would a supercharger. You don't have room in the fron of the engine to add the pulleys and in the back you would have to drive it at the flywheel somehow. If you have Turbos they use heat energy that would normaly just be wasted anyway. You would have to do a lot of fabrication of ducting, but it might be easier than fabricating a drive system. Both systems need to be plumbed for lubrication oil from the pan somehow. I am thinking of eventualy, in three years or so, doing a twin turbo thing on my low compresion moter. Of course if you run any serious boost at all it pretty well dictats an injection system. I always thought that where the screen on the engine bay is now would be a dandy location for a water to air intercooler. It would follow the air flow of the compartment. I also thought a couple of K&N filter for like the 5.0 mustangs would work well at the end of scoops for the window/rear gill areae. Of course you would have to have some reinforcement where the gills were as that is a load bearing structure. Either way it sounds like a really big job. But if done correctly, with the right engine and supporting parts, you should be able to get 1000 to 1200 reliable horsepower. That is if you belive the articles in 5.0 and hot ford magazine.

I believe!! I think I can. I think I can.

Sounds like a lot of hot air with twin turbos. but it would look cool.

It seems like guys use Turbo's or superchargers to cure small engine syndrome. When they get done they have a small engine that will produce HP but will grenade itself if used. I see guys claiming 500hp with twin turbo's and exotic setups. You can get that kind of HP in a reliable package with displacement. I like turbos/sc but I don't see them as the ideal solution when there are better solutions for the Pantera.
Gary

Josh,

the limit is your bank account and your imagination. If you decide to do a turbo set-up, you'll be in good company. I've thrown together some pictures for you. The top pic is a Doug Cook installation from the '70s. Next is a "demonstrator" system developed by Kirk Evans in the '80s. Then following in order are the Panteras of Ron Anzalone, Euclydes Aranha, Joe Curley and Dick Koch, all taken from the pages of PI Magazine, the last 2 from the current issue.

your friendly neighborhood "blow hard", George

quote:

Originally posted by JK:

quote:

Originally posted by http://www.PanteraPlace.com:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JK:
Thank you Mark!! I didn't consider supercharching.

Is Fred Terry on this board? Fred?

Josh

Mike,

Oh wise one....
Why do you think Fred abandoned SC'ing?

thanks, Mike.
Josh

I happen to know for a fact that Fred Terry did NOT abandon supercharging!
He recently switched to a roller camshaft but his car was at my house VERY recently and was in fact very much twin supercharged!
Fred's car is an amazing piece !
Later,
Ron

Is Fred Terry on this board? Fred?

Josh


Check out the latest Profiles Mag where his car is described in great detail.

Jeff
6559

Thanks for the pictures George. It is like I thought, lots and lots of plumbing. Tubes running everywhere. As long as they are all chromed it looks awesome and space age like.

...For what it's worth, Those Turbo systems with Very Long tubes can expect emmense 'Turbo Lag'. Keep the tubes as Short as Possible. And You Must Have an 'Intercooler' or Two. If you do Not cool the 'super heated' air charge, You will be into 'Detonation' Very Quickly! That is why when 'They' run at Bonneville; they have good sized tanks for ICE, which HElPS the Intercoolers and then, quickly melts into Hot water. Good-Luck with it!!...

quote:

Originally posted by comp2:
It seems like guys use Turbo's or superchargers to cure small engine syndrome. When they get done they have a small engine that will produce HP but will grenade itself if used. I see guys claiming 500hp with twin turbo's and exotic setups. You can get that kind of HP in a reliable package with displacement. I like turbos/sc but I don't see them as the ideal solution when there are better solutions for the Pantera.
Gary

True to a point. I would agree that a Honda 1.7L engine is a little ridiculous to be pushing 700hp (Grenade). A small block ford is a great place for a power adder like a Turbo/Supercharger. Displacement will certainly give you a good high torque motor but you can get only so many cubes out of a small block. Mind you it can still be built to produce obscene amounts of torque but to build one near what you could get out of a blown motor you would end up with something no more reliable or less expensive (Well maybe a little less expensive ). A turbo motor has its merits. You can have a nasty beast under the decklid that idles and runs like a mild build under part throttle yet screams like a raped ape when so desired. Its all personal preference.

Don't get me wrong, I like the turbos, but I have seen guys boasting 500hp from turbos, and I have seen much more simple non-turbo setups with 500+ hp.

I have an example of an application I think would be good for a turbo. I am building a V6 MGB:
http://www.rc-tech.net/MGB/engine/en5.jpg
I really thought about puting a turbo on it for a couple reasons. First to go to a bigger engine would offset the weight of the car. Second, there are no good heads for the basic 3.4L. If I can get the air to go through why not blow it through.

But on a Pantera, there are so many big CI strokers which won't really effect the weight of the car that much. I think the turbos are cool and I love to see people like yourself experiment with it; especially when we can all read about that which is learned. It is just when I see a 500hp turbo set up next to a 500hp stroked Windser or something like that, I would not go turbo myself. If I was racing salt flats or something like that it would be good to get the HP up to 1000-1500hp but then your not looking at engine reliability.

I do have one question though. You require a lower compression with turbos. I would suspect it made it very streatable?

Gary

quote:

Originally posted by comp2:
It is just when I see a 500hp turbo set up next to a 500hp stroked Windser or something like that, I would not go turbo myself.
Gary

It all depends what you're after.. If you want a monster HP engine that's streetable, runs great on 93 octane, and still gets good mileage .. then a turbo/supercharger is the way to go.

Plus turbos are cooooool...but certainly not for the faint of heart.

Josh

Josh,

I will offer this suggestion because of your comment about building an engine that has good cruising gas mileage as a goal; investigate the Kenne Bell supercharger.

http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/featuresofthekb.pdf

Build your motor around the smaller displacement fuel injected 5.0 Windsor (for fuel economy and more room in the engine compartment), and build the engine with enough durability for 18 psi boost. The Kenne Bell autorotor supercharger doesn't require an inter-cooler and doesn't produce boost at cruise, regardless of the cruise rpm. It provides boost instantaniously when you "get on it".

There is plenty of info, parts & support on this system to make it easy to build. Kenne Bell would be there to assist & size things for you. I'm sure this system (on a 5.0 motor) would fit in the engine bay & below the engine screen, but I don't think any Pantera owner has done a Kenne Bell system yet, which may appeal to you.

You could have a compact, lightweight 5.0 liter, 300 bhp, fuel injected windsor motor under the engine screen that would turn into a 600 bhp monster when you mashed the gas pedal.

your friend on the PIBB, George

I have to agree with George Pence on the Kennebell blower. That supercharger has gained a lot of respect in the drag racing world especially with Mustangs.

I drove a buddy's '03 Cobra with a Kennebell blower swap, smaller pulley's, exhaust, and computer chip- That car was mean to say the least, putting 540hp to the rear wheels and over 600hp at the flywheel. The only problem was that he broke driveshafts and had quite a bit of wheel hop forcing a change to a solid rear axle.

That leads me to the question- As pantera owners, how much power is too much with respect to busting half-shafts, zf problems, etc? There has to be some side effects of throwing on that beast, right?

quote:

That leads me to the question- As pantera owners, how much power is too much with respect to busting half-shafts, zf problems, etc? There has to be some side effects of throwing on that beast, right?

That was kind of my point. 500hp in a streatable config is easy without a blower or turbo. A turbo would be great if you wanted to make 1000-1500hp in 350-450cu engines. To do so would make it great for the drag strip but terrible for reliability and longevity. So if 500hp is easy otherwise, why go through all through all the trouble to make a 500hp turbo/sc engine with all the complication and hassle...Other then of course it's cool (which it is). If this set up has consumed the engine bay, what use is it?

I don't mean to be negative here.

My brother pulls up at the drag strip with a 600+hp stock looking Cobra Replica. He blows the doors off guys with blowers all the time (sure not every time). It is funny to see him pull up next to a car with a huge blower sticking out, monster tires, traction bars, lumping along, they get him in the start and he passes them before the end.

When I started looking at some well built engines, a 500hp engine with a huge blower on it or twin turbos just didn't seem right. Sure they are toned down so the engines will last. They should be 1000-1500 set ups or more but they would be re-building the engines after a couple runs.

Gary