What does a basic refreshening for a ZF cost? If a synchro is needed, what does it add to the cost? What actually does a basic refreshening entail? Thanks.
Michael
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Cybo, I had mine out when I broke a stud off in it. I called and spoke to Roy himself, very nice guy who said he would open it up and go through it for 12 to 15 hundred, plus parts. I think you would be lucky to get a syc installed for 2 g. I could use a third gear syc myself.
Thanks, lpb.
I've already started the fattening proccess of my piggy bank!
Michael
I've already started the fattening proccess of my piggy bank!
Michael
Michael,
Depends on what your going to do and what's needed once inside.
I just replaced 1st & 2nd gear synchro's with undersized bronze one's. Replaced 3rd, 4th & 5th with normal size bronze one's. They were $150.00 each, = 750.00. You can also add about 30.00 for ring gear bolts and saftey wire, another 130.00 for a gasket and seal kit. If you do the Friction disc's, that's 90.00 for both, and then there's the 4 ear plates, that's another 26.00 for both. ( I didn't need them but cracked open the differenial to make sure)
Then last but not least, gear oil, I used Royal Purple, 4.5 quarts used at 9.00 a quart.
I just did mine for a cost right at $1000.00 by the time it was all said and done. I did it myself with guidence and help from a few so I didn't have the labor cost involved since I turn my own wrenches 99% of the time. The learning was well worth the effort & time it took.
Mine is shifting fine now.
If there is to much coning on a gear cluster, a synchro is not going to fix the problem. Then your talking 800.00 for each entire gear cluster that has a problem to fix the problem. If it's a ring and pinion, anywhere from 1200.00 used to 3000.00 new. Then there's various bearing's.....The list goes on and on brother.....
Just depends on what you find once inside......You just never know until you get there.
Depends on what your going to do and what's needed once inside.
I just replaced 1st & 2nd gear synchro's with undersized bronze one's. Replaced 3rd, 4th & 5th with normal size bronze one's. They were $150.00 each, = 750.00. You can also add about 30.00 for ring gear bolts and saftey wire, another 130.00 for a gasket and seal kit. If you do the Friction disc's, that's 90.00 for both, and then there's the 4 ear plates, that's another 26.00 for both. ( I didn't need them but cracked open the differenial to make sure)
Then last but not least, gear oil, I used Royal Purple, 4.5 quarts used at 9.00 a quart.
I just did mine for a cost right at $1000.00 by the time it was all said and done. I did it myself with guidence and help from a few so I didn't have the labor cost involved since I turn my own wrenches 99% of the time. The learning was well worth the effort & time it took.
Mine is shifting fine now.
If there is to much coning on a gear cluster, a synchro is not going to fix the problem. Then your talking 800.00 for each entire gear cluster that has a problem to fix the problem. If it's a ring and pinion, anywhere from 1200.00 used to 3000.00 new. Then there's various bearing's.....The list goes on and on brother.....
Just depends on what you find once inside......You just never know until you get there.
quote:Originally posted by Cyboman:
Thanks, lpb.
I've already started the fattening proccess of my piggy bank!
Michael
I was having 2nd gear grinding problems. I did the pull and re-install myself. 2nd gear cluster and all syncros were replaced along with a box full of small parts, shafts, bearings and seals. Case was bead blasted. Ring gear was safety wired. Final cost was $4500. About a thousand more than I was expecting.
Another thing I wasn't expecting is the 8 months it took to do it. After 6 months, I showed up unannounced to take it back and ship it elsewhere. After assurances that they'd get right on it, it only took two more months to get it back.
I won't tell you who this was, but I will tell you it was NOT RBT. If I had it to do over again, I would ship it to RBT in the first place.
I put in a new clutch, shift rod, tri-union bearing, and long throw slave cylinder. About another $650 worth. Shifts like it should now.
Wish I lived closer to my friend COZ!!
Mooso.
Another thing I wasn't expecting is the 8 months it took to do it. After 6 months, I showed up unannounced to take it back and ship it elsewhere. After assurances that they'd get right on it, it only took two more months to get it back.
I won't tell you who this was, but I will tell you it was NOT RBT. If I had it to do over again, I would ship it to RBT in the first place.
I put in a new clutch, shift rod, tri-union bearing, and long throw slave cylinder. About another $650 worth. Shifts like it should now.
Wish I lived closer to my friend COZ!!
Mooso.
Thanks for the input guys. I'm scared.
Michael
Michael
Cyboman,
I had Lloyd do my trans last year. A couple synchros, bearings for the diff. (the car was driven 5 times in 15 yrs. the original bearings had seated themselves into the races)gasket set, safety wire. Basically cleaned it up. One month down time and $2400. As I left the shop he said "Your good for another 30 yrs". The trans works great. It shifts very postive, but I think my linkage / trunion bearing might need some fine adjustment.
I had Lloyd do my trans last year. A couple synchros, bearings for the diff. (the car was driven 5 times in 15 yrs. the original bearings had seated themselves into the races)gasket set, safety wire. Basically cleaned it up. One month down time and $2400. As I left the shop he said "Your good for another 30 yrs". The trans works great. It shifts very postive, but I think my linkage / trunion bearing might need some fine adjustment.
Mooso,
I know what you mean brother.
You just never know until you open it up.
Which is why I did mine myself and didn't send it to anyone. First, wanted to learn the only thing I hadn't been into.... and Second, wanted it done in somewhat a timly manner.
And then there's the money I saved by doing it myself....
BTW, wish we lived closer to each other as well !
I know what you mean brother.
You just never know until you open it up.
Which is why I did mine myself and didn't send it to anyone. First, wanted to learn the only thing I hadn't been into.... and Second, wanted it done in somewhat a timly manner.
And then there's the money I saved by doing it myself....
BTW, wish we lived closer to each other as well !
Nothing to be scared of Michael, it's only money...Heck, if I had your money, I'd throw mine away.....
quote:Originally posted by Cyboman:
Thanks for the input guys. I'm scared.
Michael
That sounds about right for what you had done with steel synchro's and labor.
quote:Originally posted by Dougo:
Cyboman,
I had Lloyd do my trans last year. A couple synchros, bearings for the diff. (the car was driven 5 times in 15 yrs. the original bearings had seated themselves into the races)gasket set, safety wire. Basically cleaned it up. One month down time and $2400. As I left the shop he said "Your good for another 30 yrs". The trans works great. It shifts very postive, but I think my linkage / trunion bearing might need some fine adjustment.
quote:Originally posted by Dougo:
(the car was driven 5 times in 15 yrs. the original bearings had seated themselves into the races)gasket set, safety wire. Basically cleaned it up. One month down time and $2400.
Excellent input Dougo!! And enough reason for me to DRIVE my Pantera!!
Michael - Does your GT5S use a dash-2 ZF? Is it the same as the earlier models?
Kevin
I hear ya, Jim. I have no one over here to walk through it with me. That's never stopped me before, and may not this time, but this isn't just any manual trans. The ZF is a very expensive box to be blindly learning on!
It would be nice to live closer. I like to get out and help others with their Panteras as well as work on my own. The nearest Pantera 'enthusiast' to me is hours away!
Michael
It would be nice to live closer. I like to get out and help others with their Panteras as well as work on my own. The nearest Pantera 'enthusiast' to me is hours away!
Michael
quote:Originally posted by Coz:
...Heck, if I had your money, I'd throw mine away.....
I'm afraid Coz that would make you broke, and dumb!
(Just a joke, you know you're the best Coz!)
Michael
Wish we were closer Michael. We could do it together. It really isn't brain surgery as some people seem to think it is. It's only a gearbox, and as I've just learned, absolutely nothing to be affraid of.
quote:Originally posted by Cyboman:
I hear ya, Jim. I have no one over here to walk through it with me. That's never stopped me before, and may not this time, but this isn't just any manual trans. The ZF is a very expensive box to be blindly learning on!
It would be nice to live closer. I like to get out and help others with their Panteras as well as work on my own. The nearest Pantera 'enthusiast' to me is hours away!
Michael
Kevin,
It's a dash-2 ZF.
Some of the last GT5-S's and Si's came with the M-1 ZF box.
Michael
It's a dash-2 ZF.
Some of the last GT5-S's and Si's came with the M-1 ZF box.
Michael
i'm calling you (coz) next year when i pull out my tranny.
I'll be here Dean.
quote:Originally posted by dean:
i'm calling you (coz) next year when i pull out my tranny.
Hey Coz! You sing a different song now that your's is done! As I remember, you were fretting like the rest of us when it was broke! 
BTW, what clutch and flywheel did you use?
BTW, what clutch and flywheel did you use?
Fretting only because of the cost of sending it out and having someone else do it for me. Now that I've done it, no big deal. Any of us can do it if your willing to take your time, learn and pay attention to the details. Like I said, it's not brain surgery.
I used the Mcleod 3 finger pressure plate, disc and alumium flywheel.
Aloha back at ya bro....
Are you coming to Sema in Vegas ?
I used the Mcleod 3 finger pressure plate, disc and alumium flywheel.
Aloha back at ya bro....
Are you coming to Sema in Vegas ?
quote:Originally posted by 4NFORD:
Hey Coz! You sing a different song now that your's is done! As I remember, you were fretting like the rest of us when it was broke!
BTW, what clutch and flywheel did you use?
Coz,
You said you overhauled the ZF yourself. I was considering doing the same thing.
I have the ZF overhaul manual and it calls out for some special tools to do the job. What specific tools did you use?
B. Goyaniuk alias "andriyko"
You said you overhauled the ZF yourself. I was considering doing the same thing.
I have the ZF overhaul manual and it calls out for some special tools to do the job. What specific tools did you use?
B. Goyaniuk alias "andriyko"
Made and used a holding jig to place the impute & output shafts in so the large nuts could be taken off with splitting the case. Assorted gear and bearing pullers, a hydraulic press and gauges that measure depth, thickness and clearances.
That was about it really.
That was about it really.
quote:Originally posted by andriyko:
Coz,
You said you overhauled the ZF yourself. I was considering doing the same thing.
I have the ZF overhaul manual and it calls out for some special tools to do the job. What specific tools did you use?
B. Goyaniuk alias "andriyko"
Coz,
If you still have the holding jig, and it's easily accessible, can you take and post a picture of it so we can get an idea of what to build? Thanks.
Michael
If you still have the holding jig, and it's easily accessible, can you take and post a picture of it so we can get an idea of what to build? Thanks.
Michael
Here it is.
2 round cups the size of the gears on the end of the shafts, welded together so they don't come a part and will hold the impute and output shafts together.
It's over at a buddys house, i will get it later this week and post a full picture of it.
2 round cups the size of the gears on the end of the shafts, welded together so they don't come a part and will hold the impute and output shafts together.
It's over at a buddys house, i will get it later this week and post a full picture of it.
quote:Originally posted by Cyboman:
Coz,
If you still have the holding jig, and it's easily accessible, can you take and post a picture of it so we can get an idea of what to build? Thanks.
Michael
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Don't go too crazy, Coz. Those are pretty good pictures. They give us a very good idea of what those attempting this would need to fabricate. Thanks!
Michael
Michael
Coz, Any chance you have play-by-play pictures of the disassembly and assemby for future reference and repair? All it takes is a little insight to build up the courage to dive in to a project like that.
Ron
Ron
quote:Originally posted by rlee63a4:
Coz, Any chance you have play-by-play pictures of the disassembly and assemby for future reference and repair? All it takes is a little insight to build up the courage to dive in to a project like that.
Ron
That would be pretty cool, Coz.
Yes, will sort through the pictures I took as we went along and post them under another topic so I can do them as a slide show.
If you want you can also e-mail me at cozland@cox.net and I will send you a power point slide show of them.
Will put it all together tomorrow.....
There are a few tricks to it, but if you attempt it, I'll will help you all I can through it.
You guys can do it, I know you can. If I can do it, so can you. Have faith ! You can also call me anytime.
I'll send you guys the holding jig when your ready. But I want it back when your done.
If you want you can also e-mail me at cozland@cox.net and I will send you a power point slide show of them.
Will put it all together tomorrow.....
There are a few tricks to it, but if you attempt it, I'll will help you all I can through it.
You guys can do it, I know you can. If I can do it, so can you. Have faith ! You can also call me anytime.
I'll send you guys the holding jig when your ready. But I want it back when your done.
Can you post a parts and cost list and source so we can get an idea of what the cost replacement is for certain parts
Depends on what your going to do and what's needed once inside.
I just replaced 1st & 2nd gear synchro's with undersized bronze one's. Replaced 3rd, 4th & 5th with normal size bronze one's. They were $150.00 each, = 750.00. You can also add about 30.00 for ring gear bolts and saftey wire, another 130.00 for a gasket and seal kit. If you do the Friction disc's, that's 90.00 for both, and then there's the 4 ear plates, that's another 26.00 for both. ( I didn't need them but cracked open the differenial to make sure)
Then last but not least, gear oil, I used Royal Purple, 4.5 quarts used at 9.00 a quart.
I just did mine for a cost right at $1000.00 by the time it was all said and done.
I just replaced 1st & 2nd gear synchro's with undersized bronze one's. Replaced 3rd, 4th & 5th with normal size bronze one's. They were $150.00 each, = 750.00. You can also add about 30.00 for ring gear bolts and saftey wire, another 130.00 for a gasket and seal kit. If you do the Friction disc's, that's 90.00 for both, and then there's the 4 ear plates, that's another 26.00 for both. ( I didn't need them but cracked open the differenial to make sure)
Then last but not least, gear oil, I used Royal Purple, 4.5 quarts used at 9.00 a quart.
I just did mine for a cost right at $1000.00 by the time it was all said and done.
quote:Originally posted by 4NFORD:
Can you post a parts and cost list and source so we can get an idea of what the cost replacement is for certain parts
Coz,
It's very generous of you to offer to lend your jig out. If I ever attempt to rebuild my ZF, I'll take you up on it!
Michael
It's very generous of you to offer to lend your jig out. If I ever attempt to rebuild my ZF, I'll take you up on it!
Michael
What is the difference between using undersized synchros vs. normal sized ones? Is it to compensate for other worn components?
Undersize takes up the slack for coning of the gear and dog teeth. Meaning the gear has worn down to the point that a normal size synchro sinks down to low and is no longer binding to slow the dog teeth down enough timing wise to mesh the changing of gears correctly. Your looking for .40+ clearance.
The only undersize ones I know of are bronze and are $150.00 each. It's an alternative if you have coning and don't want to spend $800.00 for the entire gear cluster if you can get the clearance you need.
In this picture you see the Bronze synchro on the top, followed by the dog teeth and then the gear. I am checking clearance.
You want the .40+ clearance between the synchro ring and the dog teeth.
The only options to fix a coning gear other than a undersize synchro, is sending the gear and dog teeth out for re-surfacing, I know someone that does it, or buying a total gear cluster for around $800.00.
If the coning is to bad, the undersize synchro won't fix the problem.
I ended up with a little to much coning on second gear after all said and done. I ended up with maybe .32 clearance hoping this was going to be enough. Now that it's back in the car, the ZF shifts way better than it did before, but I can still feel timing isn't quite right when going into 2nd too fast, up or down, specially down shifting.
Next summer I'll pull it again, disassemble it and send 2nd gear out for resurfacing or buy the complete cluster.
Had enough this year with it.
The only undersize ones I know of are bronze and are $150.00 each. It's an alternative if you have coning and don't want to spend $800.00 for the entire gear cluster if you can get the clearance you need.
In this picture you see the Bronze synchro on the top, followed by the dog teeth and then the gear. I am checking clearance.
You want the .40+ clearance between the synchro ring and the dog teeth.
The only options to fix a coning gear other than a undersize synchro, is sending the gear and dog teeth out for re-surfacing, I know someone that does it, or buying a total gear cluster for around $800.00.
If the coning is to bad, the undersize synchro won't fix the problem.
I ended up with a little to much coning on second gear after all said and done. I ended up with maybe .32 clearance hoping this was going to be enough. Now that it's back in the car, the ZF shifts way better than it did before, but I can still feel timing isn't quite right when going into 2nd too fast, up or down, specially down shifting.
Next summer I'll pull it again, disassemble it and send 2nd gear out for resurfacing or buy the complete cluster.
Had enough this year with it.
quote:Originally posted by 4NFORD:
What is the difference between using undersized synchros vs. normal sized ones? Is it to compensate for other worn components?
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