I'm looking for advice in installing an oil cooler for my ZF.
Mark
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I'm interested as well.
Sometimes (that's what I have seen and will consider doing for my car) an electric pump is used that pull oil from the speedo gear hole, though the pump and back through a pipe in the casing just over the ring and pinion, such that the rings gears are cooled directly (that must be the thinking). That of course, means drilling the case and welding a fitting to it.
Sometimes (that's what I have seen and will consider doing for my car) an electric pump is used that pull oil from the speedo gear hole, though the pump and back through a pipe in the casing just over the ring and pinion, such that the rings gears are cooled directly (that must be the thinking). That of course, means drilling the case and welding a fitting to it.
quote:Originally posted by Push1267:
I'm interested as well.
Sometimes (that's what I have seen and will consider doing for my car) an electric pump is used that pull oil from the speedo gear hole, though the pump and back through a pipe in the casing just over the ring and pinion, such that the rings gears are cooled directly (that must be the thinking). That of course, means drilling the case and welding a fitting to it.
I have seen before they use a Facet Red Top electric fuel pump.
Simon
Here is a original zf with original oil lines .
At the moment it is at the zf factory. You can have more pics in about 2 weeks.
At the moment it is at the zf factory. You can have more pics in about 2 weeks.
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There are 4 oil lines going out and in.
Some guys from zf say there is allready a "oilpump" inside the zf. When you know where to make the picups you do not need any pump.
Interesting, Peter. Looking fwd to seeing more photos. The only 'factory' oil cooler equipped ZF I've seen utilized cast-in-place bosses on the right side of the transmission section. Those connect to drillable passages inside, along with a funnel pickup that uses the ring gear to keep it full and gravity-feed an external cooler, thus no pump needed once the lube is hot. Some of the small-block GT-40s had this rig, but the pickup funnel only functions if the transmission section is upside-down as in the GT-40 or the Mangusta. And those only used 2 flex lines.
The rear cover casting looks a little different than ours, and not just because of the lower oil fitting. The top oil fitting is in the place of a lube dipstick used in early cars & the stock vent fitting over the ring gear is missing- maybe plugged?
Wonder who rigged this one, or if this ZF is indeed off a 'Fendt Roller' with it's large remote lube tank, as someone suggested. Fendts were an early ZF-equipped road-grader used in Europe. More info on the Web under Fendt Roller.
The rear cover casting looks a little different than ours, and not just because of the lower oil fitting. The top oil fitting is in the place of a lube dipstick used in early cars & the stock vent fitting over the ring gear is missing- maybe plugged?
Wonder who rigged this one, or if this ZF is indeed off a 'Fendt Roller' with it's large remote lube tank, as someone suggested. Fendts were an early ZF-equipped road-grader used in Europe. More info on the Web under Fendt Roller.
I can post some photos in a few weeks.
Right now, we look for the "correct" oil system.
Right now, we look for the "correct" oil system.
If you're looking for parts to do this, just a suggestion- My CTS-V has cooler on the rear diff, so maybe a junked CTS-V could provide both radiator, pump and fan.
On my Ultima I'm using a Tilton pump designed for the purpose, they are not overly expensive.
Virtually all the transaxle cooling/oiling systems I know of spray the oil back to the gears. I am not familiar enough with the intricacies of the ZF, but I'd want to be sure the ZF ring & pinion housing has enough free flow back to the gearbox that you cannot pump the gears dry. Oil flow may be compounded by the fact the ZF was not originally designed to run in our (Pantera) orientation.
Julian
Virtually all the transaxle cooling/oiling systems I know of spray the oil back to the gears. I am not familiar enough with the intricacies of the ZF, but I'd want to be sure the ZF ring & pinion housing has enough free flow back to the gearbox that you cannot pump the gears dry. Oil flow may be compounded by the fact the ZF was not originally designed to run in our (Pantera) orientation.
Julian
Mark, What temps do you see at the end of the Silver State????
The first year I ran BBORR @ 95mph my ZF temp was 170ish at the end.
David
The first year I ran BBORR @ 95mph my ZF temp was 170ish at the end.
David
quote:Originally posted by ehpantera:
I'm looking for advice in installing an oil cooler for my ZF.
Mark
I don't have a temp reading but you can't put your hand on it.
quote:Originally posted by ehpantera:
I don't have a temp reading but you can't put your hand on it.
I have found this method pretty acccurated. If I can monetarly touch twice and have no problem doing a third touch, the temp is under 160F.
(method used to determine if water is hot enough to scald a hog)
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I promise to get a specific reading in Sept. after SSCC.
A rule of thumb I was told is don't exceed the temperature where the oil viscosity is 15 cSt for a prolonged period.
I like Amsoil products their 75W90 severe gear oil is 15.9 cSt @ 100C (212F)
Julian
I like Amsoil products their 75W90 severe gear oil is 15.9 cSt @ 100C (212F)
Julian
When I built my car I made provisions for a trans cooler. I am not driving in a way I need it now but it would not take much to finish the setup.
First I removed the A/C. I don't use A/C even in summer....what can I say, skinny guy who loves the wind in his face. The A/C saved 100+ lbs. The cooler went in the A/C location. I have a Tilton pump on the shelf ready to install. I have relays for the fan and the pump installed on rear firewall.
Fan is hooked up and can be useful to evacuate air from rear engine area. I have a trans temp gauge installed on the dash.
If I am not going to use it right now I just need to plug the cooler so the mud dobbers don't block it.
First I removed the A/C. I don't use A/C even in summer....what can I say, skinny guy who loves the wind in his face. The A/C saved 100+ lbs. The cooler went in the A/C location. I have a Tilton pump on the shelf ready to install. I have relays for the fan and the pump installed on rear firewall.
Fan is hooked up and can be useful to evacuate air from rear engine area. I have a trans temp gauge installed on the dash.
If I am not going to use it right now I just need to plug the cooler so the mud dobbers don't block it.
quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:quote:Originally posted by ehpantera:
I don't have a temp reading but you can't put your hand on it.
I have found this method pretty acccurated. If I can monetarly touch twice and have no problem doing a third touch, the temp is under 160F.
(method used to determine if water is hot enough to scald a hog)
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Mark, I've seen endurance race Panteras (3-6 hr events) with belt-driven pumps, having the drive pulley bolted to the back of the right halfshaft's inner u-joint. Racers usually do not trust electric pumps if a mechanically driven pump can be used. The GT-40 cooler was only about 4"x 6". Corvair engine oil coolers can be used.
Keep in mind that with lube temps below 200F, that's barely enough to boil out condensation moisture. Things don't get serious until you see above 240F, just as with engine oil temps. Most of us never see more than 180F and it took the ZF ovr 3 hrs sitting quietly to cool back down to room temp. My ZF temp sensor is in the side of the case very near the ring gear. You must remove the ZF from the car to do any drilling/tapping.
Synthetics can provide some extra temp protection w/no cooler. Note also that pumping honey-like 75W90 when cold is VERY difficult & tends to blow seals and use lots of power, so either a gravity system which is self-regulating, or some sort of manual on/off or a thermostatic valve and BIG lines would be a good idea. Air ducting to/from the cooler is important. Of course, complication & quite a few more failure points are also added.
On a GT-40, one team drilled the ZF's iron rear cover and pressed a seal in along with a short drive shaft pressed into the hollow mainshaft for a rear-mounted pump. You don't need a large pump- a very small one will move enough fluid to keep diff lube flowing. I suggest a 2-gear pump that's tolerant of debris & wear particles. I found a small aluminum military aircraft hydraulic pump that's about 2-1/2" square & only has 3/8" thick gears. I really think you're worrying about a non-problem in a 30 minute event.
Keep in mind that with lube temps below 200F, that's barely enough to boil out condensation moisture. Things don't get serious until you see above 240F, just as with engine oil temps. Most of us never see more than 180F and it took the ZF ovr 3 hrs sitting quietly to cool back down to room temp. My ZF temp sensor is in the side of the case very near the ring gear. You must remove the ZF from the car to do any drilling/tapping.
Synthetics can provide some extra temp protection w/no cooler. Note also that pumping honey-like 75W90 when cold is VERY difficult & tends to blow seals and use lots of power, so either a gravity system which is self-regulating, or some sort of manual on/off or a thermostatic valve and BIG lines would be a good idea. Air ducting to/from the cooler is important. Of course, complication & quite a few more failure points are also added.
On a GT-40, one team drilled the ZF's iron rear cover and pressed a seal in along with a short drive shaft pressed into the hollow mainshaft for a rear-mounted pump. You don't need a large pump- a very small one will move enough fluid to keep diff lube flowing. I suggest a 2-gear pump that's tolerant of debris & wear particles. I found a small aluminum military aircraft hydraulic pump that's about 2-1/2" square & only has 3/8" thick gears. I really think you're worrying about a non-problem in a 30 minute event.
Thanks Mark!
quote:Originally posted by ehpantera:
I promise to get a specific reading in Sept. after SSCC.
quote:Originally posted by Bosswrench:
I really think you're worrying about a non-problem in a 30 minute event.
For those that don't know, Mark averages over 150mph at the Silver State. IMO, if anybody needs a cooler it would be Mark!
OK- fine. I based my comment on the fact that Larry Stock has the first trophy for a Pantera with a 150.00 average at the Silver State. He says the ZF in his red car gets too hot to touch at the finish line but he has no problem driving the car home from events with no ZF cooler or even a gauge- which he says is a distraction. I only put a sensor in our ZF to see what heat really builds up back there- the engine oil temp gauge was already mounted.
Haven't verified but I don't remember Jr Wilson running a ZF cooler on The Monster back in the day. And that steel body Pantera ran well over over 200 at the SS several times with no ZF troubles (but plenty of tire problems!) There are other Nor-Cal big-block owners that get along fine with no ZF cooler- Darryl Johnson's 545 inch Pantera ran well at several recent Standing Mile events.
Vintage enduros like Pat Hals runs (without a cooler) in Europe are another thing entirely. If I was going to run a ZF cooler on a dedicated enduro roadracer and it was legal, I think I'd investigate the water-to-oil Laminova take-apart type and avoid air ducting problems. I have a Laminova in our engine oil system- the same curiosity & equally unneeded- and it takes out 15 degrees F from 10 qts of 30-wt. Dennis Quella uses a Laminova on his Pantera roadracer's engine, but not- I don't think- on its ZF. Al Bloomberg's record holding C/Sports Bonneville pushbutton didn't use one, either. Stuff that's not there can't malfunction....
Haven't verified but I don't remember Jr Wilson running a ZF cooler on The Monster back in the day. And that steel body Pantera ran well over over 200 at the SS several times with no ZF troubles (but plenty of tire problems!) There are other Nor-Cal big-block owners that get along fine with no ZF cooler- Darryl Johnson's 545 inch Pantera ran well at several recent Standing Mile events.
Vintage enduros like Pat Hals runs (without a cooler) in Europe are another thing entirely. If I was going to run a ZF cooler on a dedicated enduro roadracer and it was legal, I think I'd investigate the water-to-oil Laminova take-apart type and avoid air ducting problems. I have a Laminova in our engine oil system- the same curiosity & equally unneeded- and it takes out 15 degrees F from 10 qts of 30-wt. Dennis Quella uses a Laminova on his Pantera roadracer's engine, but not- I don't think- on its ZF. Al Bloomberg's record holding C/Sports Bonneville pushbutton didn't use one, either. Stuff that's not there can't malfunction....
2 questions, 1.) your oil cooler is it pulling the air from the out side in? 2.) what is the Ford / Pantera tin for?
quote:Originally posted by comp2:
When I built my car I made provisions for a trans cooler. I am not driving in a way I need it now but it would not take much to finish the setup.
First I removed the A/C. I don't use A/C even in summer....what can I say, skinny guy who loves the wind in his face. The A/C saved 100+ lbs. The cooler went in the A/C location. I have a Tilton pump on the shelf ready to install. I have relays for the fan and the pump installed on rear firewall.
Fan is hooked up and can be useful to evacuate air from rear engine area. I have a trans temp gauge installed on the dash.
If I am not going to use it right now I just need to plug the cooler so the mud dobbers don't block it.
quote:Originally posted by pantera chris:
2 questions, 2.) What is the Ford/Pantera tin for?
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...971031066#6971031066
I presently have the fan blowing out which is hooked up. The oil cooler is not presently hooked up but i can use fan to move air through and out the back.
I also have the relay setup on the back firewall wired and ready to go if i do decide to finish the setup.
I've spoken with Lloyd at RBT and he suggested to have a bung welded to the top of the case above the R&P and pump the oil from the drain through the cooler and onto the R&P.
You want the fan to draw air in not push out.quote:Originally posted by comp2:
I presently have the fan blowing out which is hooked up. The oil cooler is not presently hooked up but i can use fan to move air through and out the back.
Expanding on my friend Chris's comment, the problem with using the screened area in the rear for oil cooling (or for an AC condenser as well) is, at low speeds (below 100 mph or so), tuft studies show there is a big swirl of air from over the roof and out the rear 'window' opening behind the car, that actually pushes against the rear bumper. So at low speeds the AC condenser or oil cooler fan should be set to suck air in, not blow it out from inside the rear trunk against positive pressure.
But at higher speeds yet (above 100 mph), the same swirl moves back away from the rear of the car; now there's a partial vacuum of variable size behind the bumper. Trying to suck air in when there's little available has been implicated in blowing AC lines. At those higher speeds where the engine is also highly loaded in 5th gear, you need oil cooler air flow to be from the inside to the outside. DC motors reverse easily but not fan blade orientation on the fan shaft.
Bottom line: unless you ALWAYS drive slow, or always drive fast, that's not a good place for either an AC condenser or an oil cooler. And note that without the trunk tub in place to help direct airflow thru the rear screen, air flows both stock & modified are all messed up both at low speed and at high speeds. Its not as convenient but oil coolers should be mounted in front, and AC condensers work better up there, too. Good luck.
But at higher speeds yet (above 100 mph), the same swirl moves back away from the rear of the car; now there's a partial vacuum of variable size behind the bumper. Trying to suck air in when there's little available has been implicated in blowing AC lines. At those higher speeds where the engine is also highly loaded in 5th gear, you need oil cooler air flow to be from the inside to the outside. DC motors reverse easily but not fan blade orientation on the fan shaft.
Bottom line: unless you ALWAYS drive slow, or always drive fast, that's not a good place for either an AC condenser or an oil cooler. And note that without the trunk tub in place to help direct airflow thru the rear screen, air flows both stock & modified are all messed up both at low speed and at high speeds. Its not as convenient but oil coolers should be mounted in front, and AC condensers work better up there, too. Good luck.
quote:Originally posted by Bosswrench:
...tuft studies show....
I was thinking the fan current could be measured at rest. If the motor current decreased with speed, then the natural aerodynmaics is in phase with the fan direction.
If the current increases, then the fan is fighting agaisnt the natural.
having a 2 pole toggle would allow the fan direction to be easily reversed at the transition speed
Which way flows is a gotcha question people like to state but for me, yes I can reverse the direction of the fan but I am not in present need of cooling at speed. Since the cooler is not hooked up if I am in traffic I do so to keep airflow through the engine area when stopped in traffic.
If I ever hook up the fan I had thought about experimenting with ducting air from the bottom of the car or other tricks to force air out the back. A certain type of deflector on the rear vent may block the reversal and siphon but that would take some thought.
Or I may just reverse the fan. Messing with stuff is the fun in it all.
If I ever hook up the fan I had thought about experimenting with ducting air from the bottom of the car or other tricks to force air out the back. A certain type of deflector on the rear vent may block the reversal and siphon but that would take some thought.
Or I may just reverse the fan. Messing with stuff is the fun in it all.