180 Deg Headers

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Originally posted by Alan B:
I just got my hands on a used set of 180 Deg. headers that should exit at the stock location. To make these work it looks like I would have to cut holes in the engine bay at the rear above the stock muffler location. Does this sound right? Has anyone done this? Do yo have pictures? Is it worth it or am I better of with aftermarket "stock style" exhuast system?
Alan

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I see from the Spring 1995 POCA mag, Michael Harper's 1972 Group 4 has them exiting the stock location (& looks cut through the inside engine bay). Looks real kool to me from the outside of the car. Looks to be loud as hell with those huge pipes...I sure would like to hear that car. Anyone know where this car is now? It looks like a real nice Group 4.

Correct- the u-bends drop down through 4" dia holes you cut. Be aware that after you get the things mounted but before you drive, you MUST fabricate a heat-shield to got between the headers and the rear decklid. 060-thick aluminum is fine. A good shield will be maybe 4' by 2' and will be attached to the decklid bracing with multiple stand-offs so theres a big air-gap above & below. Not running a shields will quickly destroy the paint on your rear deck; on the car I raced, paint boiled and charred on the deck after 20 miles of wide-open running.
You'll also find that the sound from the headers is addictive, possibly to the detriment of your drivers license! And working around the engine is impossible. All spark plugs must now be R & R-ed from below, and God help you if you need to tune the carb or adjust valves....

Yes Alan. Jack is absolutely correct agin.
I can only say; YES its worth all the hassles. Just from the sound point of view even. Absolutely addictive and totally diferent. To anything. And YES, I have pictures. YES u have to cut two small holes only in the inner panel. Easy. This is how the factory did it.
Do not be persauded to exit your mufflers out the central rear A/C outlet. This will cheat you of the sound as it should be heard. Like on the track at Valleluga when I heard my first Grp. 4.- (anyhow, how could you deprive the viewer of the sight of the cars-innards by running mufflers thru the outlet - A/C has been removed.)
I too have run my 'skinny-body' 76 Grp.4 Replica for many years like this. I have not found it nessesary to go to the lenthens Jack went regarding the 180 degree exhaust heat output, however I am running a very thin walled, Ceramic coated system (Hall P.)with the engine cover removed to accomodate the Webbers & 6inch. velocity stacks,(-Let the hot air out), aided by a pair of Hall's big 'Bunny-Eared' side - scoops replacing the rear qrt. windows. Will run 4x big K & N chrome-top airfilters soon now with the new motor coming.- Cant see past the Webbers anyhow as it is, so what the .......
Seems Gary Hall was right. Thye motor suffered very little appreciate valve or ring wear running the velocity stacks sans air-cleaners over the years. His big side- scoops did indeed change the air flow downwards and help the Webbers induct 'cleaner' air.
The combination of the Webbers howling and the 180 degree exh. wailling is to be heard. And NO,its not very loud at all. My system anyhow. ( one can of course just whip off the big mufflers and bolt on stingers or whatever for Track Day and really reach aural delights around the entire Track.) My system has the Hall 'swirled-core' mufflers, which are straight-thru but baffled........a bit heavy, but for street use, sound great.....I wont say it again. When all the bits are together again I'll make a sound clip & post it. Enjoy , tai.

Everyone,
Thanks for all the advice.

Tai Krige,
Would you mind sending me some of those pictures or posting them?

Thanks,
Alan




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Sorry Alan. I have been away overseas & have just got back.
Will post 3x pics of the old set-up on my Grp.4 replica today.(You might have to'lighten-up'or decrease contrast to see the detail of the exhausts at the under body.) On my pics the exh.is in full view & looks good.
Will post new pics again later when the new motor goes in with the exh.system now Ceramic-coated & massive 4x K & N air-filters, plus new new Accusump press. oiling setup from Canton plus Hall's 10qt., baffled sump. Hope this will take care of oil/lack of,- problem.
Anyone had experience of the Accusump set-up ????? Must be a good idea for very little money outlay, why does'nt anyone I have seen use it? Regards , tai

To my ears one has to stand in the middle of behind the car to get the best sound. In some angles standing at the sidewalk listening to the car passing by, it may sound as a 4-cylinder car. With the outlets together at the place of the AC radiator, we got the same sound independent from listening location point. Angling the last part of the pipes to straight backward can have some correction.
Well, I almost newer hear anyone else to express this opinion, so It might be only me that
Is a little disturbed by this slight illsound.
Regards
Goran Malmberg

FWIW, I found the sound of the 180s is addictive from inside the car- the std mufflers are simple glasspaks with much smaller internal inlets & outlets than one might think from the 4" OD pipes. Also keep in mind that due to the length of the pipes, one gets a positive torque-bump at around 3500 rpms, and due to the small internal muffler inlets & maybe gas friction from the very long pipes, a drop in high-rpm power. One owner said he lost 500 rpms at the top of 5th gear with 180s, so he sold them. But they worked well for autocross.

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Also keep in mind that due to the length of the pipes, one gets a positive torque-bump at around 3500 rpms, and due to the small internal muffler inlets & maybe gas friction from the very long pipes, a drop in high-rpm power. One owner said he lost 500 rpms at the top of 5th gear with 180s, so he sold them. But they worked well for autocross.[/B]

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Sounds logical
Goran Malmberg

Hi Alan. Sorry for delay. Here are the pics promised (x3)Will post more later with all the new bits.
By the way regarding the possible loss of revs at top end useing 180 degree system: I did not notice a drop changing over to the exhaust and Webbers on my old motor.But then it was pretty std. and also my 180 degree as u can see,is the old design of Hall's,( Not yet ceramic coated...) not the newer system available these days, which is different,- with what appears to be shorter header pipes ending much closer to the back of the motor itself. What system are u using and how far are u at present? Please post pics if poss.

To view first picure IMG)http://www.counterculture.co.za/car1.jpg(IMG)
Next pic : (IMG)http://www.counterculture.co.za/car2.jpg(IMG)
Next pic.: (IMG)http://www.counterculture.co.za/car3.jpg(IMG)

P.S.No sound with this posting.
Regards,tai.

Sorry Alan, ( I can't read my last posting to u since,- because of the time delays between us,it is not up on the PI. Web - Site yet.) I am but a mere fledgling at surfing the Electronic Ether and have probably given u an incorrect Access Code to view pics of my GRP.4 Replica with 180 degree Hall 'bunch of snakes'.
The right address is:


same for car3.

I have thanked Jack de Rich's tireless input & advise many times but not HEMIHEAD......
Many thanks Goran. Your input has not only been very prolific and incredibly insightful, especially for us many laymen out there. Your eng. background and experience has offered to so many of us all over the World. Do we all, realize this? Thank you all & of course PI. for the previledge of being able to share your views and endless helpful advise thru the years.....
Regards ,tai.

Hi Alan again.
To view pic.3 of engine bay to see 180 degree system use this code :

P.S. Any one interested in seeing the pics of suspension,chassis,brakes etc. of our new Pantera, space-framed'modern'hi-tech. Replica? The suspn.has spherical rod-ends & is designed for adustment without having to remove a single component and is ideal for setting up for road or track conditions. It has coil-over Bilstein shocks, frt.& rear adjustable torsion bars & has zero bump steer & zero scrub radius,frt. & rear. (All the suspn. adjm. is done using one Alan Key.)
#34 examples of this design have been built & are performing spectacularly on the road & tracks.........
The rolling chassis, plus suspn., discs, caliphers,coil-over shocks,rack & pinion steeering,brake,clutch & accelerator pedals with all tubing weighs a mere 404 lbs. Complete car in at 2090 lbs. dry.

We decided to build this Replica after years of trying to get Panteras to handle correctely.(and keep the suspn. settings 'True' after set-up)
Try this experiment: HYd.jack under rear of car. Jack up & watch the rear tyres & whls. scrub-in like a VW Bettle swing-axel. Not Good. Ours do not move at all on rising up. And the front! - Try and keep the frt.end set up.- Not poss.-unless u modify /clamp huge pieces of metal to the frt.upper suspn. A arm.etc. Wrong.
Cheers. tai.

Thanks Tai.
It would be very interesting to see the geometry of your supension. You seem to put time and effort in to this.
Did you look at the specification for my car?
I made a quite big, should we say "analysis table" that show the balance properties of of the car. http://hem.passagen.se/hemipanter/
Look under "performance". This gives a good idea about how to measure what the car is up to.
Keep on working on your car.
Cheers
Goran Malmberg

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Originally posted by hemip:
Thanks Tai.
It would be very interesting to see the geometry of your supension. You seem to put time and effort in to this.
Did you look at the specification for my car?
I made a quite big, should we say "analysis table" that show the balance properties of of the car. http://hem.passagen.se/hemipanter/
Look under "performance". This gives a good idea about how to measure what the car is up to.
Keep on working on your car.
Cheers
Goran Malmberg

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Hey Goran

How did you do the non-pop-up headlights?

Tai,

Thanks for the pics. I've decided to pull the engine and rebuild it so the 180 deg headers are still sitting in my basement. My mufflers look like yours. They are also a straight through design. You said yours weren't too loud for the street?

How did you get your pics to show up on the forum? Let me know and I will post a picture of my headers out of the car.

Alan


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Hi Alan.
Finally got it together.
P.I. kindly posted the actual pics of car directely. Great. Thank you P.I.
Awesome Website, i have to say again.
Anyhow,here are the promised futher pics.
I've added a few for Goran to see re. the chassis / suspn. design of the Replica I am building. The funny looking wooden 'thing' is a scale test model we built way back.
Fun & games.
Here are the entry codes to have a look :







Lets hear how you are doing with your project. Regards tai.

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Originally posted by Tai Krige:
Hi Alan.
Anyhow,here are the promised futher pics.
I've added a few for Goran to see re. the chassis / suspn. design of the Replica I am building. The funny looking wooden 'thing' is a scale test model we built way back.
Fun & games.

Lets hear how you are doing with your project. Regards tai.

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As I guessed, you really put some time into this. Great work! I could not tell anything about geometry by looking at the image, but I take your word for your statement. Would be nice to see the build progress.
Cheers
Goran

I got my engine out of the car and stripped down to the block. The internals didn't look that bad and appeared to be Ford stock components. I'm starting to think my odometer (36K) may be correct. It is off to the engine builder this week. I am planning on stroking the engine and going with Aussie heads.

Has anyone tried to install the 180 Deg. headers while the engine is out of the car and drop them in with the motor?

Alan


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I have installed the engine in my car with Hall 180 deg headers all in one peice.You have to leave the two rear tubes off until the assembly (headers,engine and trans)is installed.

Ron

I have some good pictures of this ste installed on my friend's car if someone can host them for me.

Hi there ALAN.
Yes indeed,- as JACK & the BOYS have said many times before; .....the 351C 4V closed- chamber "Quench" heads with its ample ports and valve size make it ideal for a big block sized motor application & that's what your into ALAN. great.. I sincerly hope you do pursue this route... Its one i tried. I havent heared of a "good- strokeing" going on recently, .around here..if you'all know what i mean.
I had a 3.85inch stroker SCAT Rotateing Assebly (392cuin... ordered up but couldn't end up getting it in time....for the above motor. Which is in now by the way,along with the "Accusump" Pressureixed oiling system,- & plumbed in Halon Diest, fire-supression system ....
Keep us posted as to your progress..tai

Ron, I'd really like to see your photos of the 180 headers. Can anyone host these?

Danno

Just an update to my project. Sent 180 Deg headers out to JetHot. Headers came back looking great. Engine is still at engine builder waiting for stroker kit.

Alan

What Stroker Kit are you going to use Alan? I had a problem with one I ordered long ago from Scat. -a 393cuin.-They said they had one, then they didnt. "We're waiting for steel.." is what they said. Anyhow, i am glad u have perservered, it really is worth it, as Jack said the big valve heads are really perfect for a big, or bigger block - I just could not wait any longer.
What camshaft/spec are you going with ? Flat tappet/ Hyd.? And compresion ?
Lets hear. Regards, tai.