#2241 - Engine rebuild

Wow - Those pics are BIG - I'll resize'em a Little more to the Next post !

Wow, Hein. You are certainly NOT in a position to envy anyone's garage. Yours looks awesome.

It looks like you and your friends made quick work of pulling the engine. Are you going to remove all the engine bay undercoating while in there? It's an awful job, but once done, cleaning the dirt and dust is so much easier when the surface is paint or other hard surface. I did my white Pantera in paint and regretted it when I saw how tough the epoxy bed-liner coatings are. They keep the look of the factory undercoat but not the soft gooeyness of it. While at it, consider re-routing the A/C lines under the fender. Oh, and it's a good time to pull the fuel tank and have it inspected/cleaned and maybe sealed since it is an engine-out job too. And then add a stainless firewall cover… and… How long are your winters again?

Good luck and have fun!

Mark

I agree with Mark here: you should address the fuel tank. There are several points of weakness with the stock tank: rust corrosion, the old fuel sock sloshing around, the banjo fitting ...

I addressed mine a few years back and was very happy with the end result. The project is chronicled (with pictures) at this link.

Best of luck with the engine rebuild! Just remember to make sure she goes FASTER with the new powerplant!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Charlton:
Wow, Hein. You are certainly NOT in a position to envy anyone's garage. Yours looks awesome.

It looks like you and your friends made quick work of pulling the engine. Are you going to remove all the engine bay undercoating while in there? It's an awful job, but once done, cleaning the dirt and dust is so much easier when the surface is paint or other hard surface. I did my white Pantera in paint and regretted it when I saw how tough the epoxy bed-liner coatings are. They keep the look of the factory undercoat but not the soft gooeyness of it. While at it, consider re-routing the A/C lines under the fender. Oh, and it's a good time to pull the fuel tank and have it inspected/cleaned and maybe sealed since it is an engine-out job too. And then add a stainless firewall cover… and… How long are your winters again?

Good luck and have fun!

Mark

Mark, I will have the gastank removed and cleaned out. I had major problem all summer with all kinds of things floating around Down there !!
The A/C will not be installed Again, as it never get's that hot here in DK anyway. So it will be put away on a shelf.
I will for sure get the undercoating removed, and have it all painted. But You're right...... It's a pain in the bu** to remove !!!!! Think it's a job for my oldest son *LOL*

quote:

Originally posted by EA #3528:
I agree with Mark here: you should address the fuel tank. There are several points of weakness with the stock tank: rust corrosion, the old fuel sock sloshing around, the banjo fitting ...

I addressed mine a few years back and was very happy with the end result. The project is chronicled (with pictures) at this link.

Best of luck with the engine rebuild! Just remember to make sure she goes FASTER with the new powerplant!!!

Yeah, it WILL go faster with the new powerplant, what ever I decide to do with it. Still don't know if I will go for a new crateengine or rebuild my own.
Thank You for the link to Your project

So, got the engine pulled apart. Not good news... Think I have to buy a crate engine, or at least a better block to start with, and then do it all by my self.
The block is allready bored .040, so think I will use it for 8 bottles of good wine......


Installed i the enginestand, and with fresh coffee made by my wife, I'm ready to pull it apart !


So far so good - Not looking that bad. Those are good parts.


Everything will be put in plasticbags and marked, so I can put it back together Again


With the heads off the block, it's now exciting to see how the cylinders are looking. The heads are nice D0AE N (Close Chamber), so they are not bad. And they are even installed with stelite seats, stailess valves and bronze silicon guides.


There's alot of things in an engine, huh' ?


No good !!!!!! And my crankshaft is ofcause no good either ! Did anyone say "Stroker Kit" ??? ;-)

So now I have to find me a better block, so I can get started rebuilding a new better POWERFULL engine for next season.

Hi Heine,
sorry to hear about your block, and the crank. I am following the developments with interest,

Cheers, Tim.

Still don't know what to do:
Build my own when I find a better block to start with or buy a brandnew crateengine in the US.

I have my eyes on two engines

1. http://www.proformanceunlimite...pecs/351c_420hp.html

2. http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-3...&hash=item2585d7de9b

Your pictures are very interesting. So it looks like yoiu have some bearing and crank issues, possibly caused by oil starvation?

Due to the overbore, and the scorpion lifters, obviously someone reworked your engine in the not too distant past?

How many miles were on the engine since the rebuild?

What oiling mods were done? The Moroso restrictors in the lifter oil feeds and the cam bearings? Were the lifter bores bushed?

Both of your crate engines talk about "oiling updates", but they don't really say what they were.. You might want to be sure in that area.

Just a comment - buying a crate engine will definately put you way ahead (schedule-wise) on your project - remember, you only have until late June - mid-July until the snow melts!

Rocky

@Rocky

The engine where rebuild back in 1990, according til PIM where I bought the car.
It's only driven 2000 miles since, where I have driven the 1200 of them since I got it in april this year.

Beside the oilconsumption, I had a ticking when I rev. the engine over some time. Driving 100 mph for a couple of minutes, left me with that ticking. Sounded like it was from the lifters.

No oil mods is done to the engine. And the lifterbores are not bushed.

The crate engine is the way to go, I think. Talked to Kristian yesterday about it (Push1267). He have a stroked Windsor in his, and I like the idea of a Windsor in mine too, as they are much easier to get parts for etc. - But I still don't know for sure.

I'd recommend staying with the Cleveland. They make them pretty good these days, and all parts like headers fit your Pantera. No need to use the weaker Windsor IMHO. And you can reuse more parts...

A couple of suggestions, Heine: first, cut the under-engine crossmember and e-brake bracket off the frame, and make them removeable. This will then allow oil pan access on your new engine while its still installed, and its simple to do with the engine out. DeTomaso did this as-stock in later cars.

Next, buy an Aviaid full-baffled oil pan. Aviaid makes them for both 351-C and 351W blocks (as well as Mangusta small-blocks). This will keep your replacement bearings and crank looking like new for years. A street Pantera can corner hard enough to slosh oil away from the oil pump pickup and starve the bearings, resulting in exactly what you found with your OEM crank.

Now, you've got a good foundation for whatever other engine mods you like, and your wife can keep her hands clean!

I'd stay with the Cleveland architecture also.

CHI is a better way to go than Edelbrock on heads. Anything Edelbrock is always suspect to me.

Make sure if you use a Ford block to do the oiling modifications. Both links are vague on that.

If you go for a stroker, may as well use a forged crank rather than just a cast one.

You NEED the Aviad pan BUT considering the low mileage on the engine, that damage could be caused by LACK OF USE.

When the engine sits for long periods, make sure it is super primed before it starts. You will develope surface rust on the internal components and cylinder bores and unfortunately the oil will be needed to wash away as much as possible.

The main bearings show signs of rust contamination into them and that is because the engine sat maybe for years without running it.

Change the oil as much as you can to reduce the issue.

If you go with a Ford block, might want to consider a block from AusFordParts.

You could also have your block sleeved to bring it to standard bore. Many of the FE builders are now doing that with those blocks since even a .030 over bore makes them overheat terribly and difficult to start hot.

The Cleveland really has those tendencies also more so than the Windsor engines do, although my 302 does show signs of that when it is very hot here and it is .030 over with a 3.40 crank.

Thank You all for all the comments, suggestions and ideas - That really helps me alot !

Sounds like I have to be sure that the Cleveland have oil mods done to it. I will try'n figure out what exactly it requires.
And ofcause upgrade to the oilbaffle tray, to keep the oil where it belongs ;-)

As PanteraDoug mention, it's probably because it's haven't been driven much the past 25 years, that the bearings etc. are gone.

I have found a block here in Denmark, that have 50000 miles to it, and have never been bored. That's a good block for me to start with. I will go and see it this weekend.

What are the CHI heads You're talking about Doug ?? Are those the "3V" aluminum heads ?

Sounds like I have to cut that crossmember too - Any Pictures of how it was done by the factory ? Would like to make it factory correct, if possible.

Thank You, Guys ! I appreciate Your answers !!

quote:

Originally posted by danishcarnut:
Thank You all for all the comments, suggestions and ideas - That really helps me alot !

Sounds like I have to be sure that the Cleveland have oil mods done to it. I will try'n figure out what exactly it requires.
And ofcause upgrade to the oilbaffle tray, to keep the oil where it belongs ;-)

As PanteraDoug mention, it's probably because it's haven't been driven much the past 25 years, that the bearings etc. are gone.

I have found a block here in Denmark, that have 50000 miles to it, and have never been bored. That's a good block for me to start with. I will go and see it this weekend.

What are the CHI heads You're talking about Doug ?? Are those the "3V" aluminum heads ?
Are they better than the stock Closed Chamber heads ?

Sounds like I have to cut that crossmember too - Any Pictures of how it was done by the factory ? Would like to make it factory correct, if possible.

Thank You, Guys ! I appreciate Your answers !!

Now that the engine and trans is out of the car, it would be pretty dumb not to freshen up the enginecompartment. So I started removing the factory "undercoating" - What a job......







Also have to remove the gastank etc.
There is still alot of Work left, before I can paint it. But the Winter is looooong here in Denmark, so I'm sure that I can make it in time for spring.

The pickup truck spray on liner is a good idea. It wasn't around when I did mine so I just scrapped off (like you are) the factory undercoat and used 3m "rocker shoots".

As far as heads go, I personally swear by my A3 Ford Motorsport heads. They are kind of a favorite of Dan Jones as well.

You might want to read George's Sticky #3, in the Engines section about heads.

The CHI 3v heads are liked by many.

I personally do not believe in Edelbrock products at all. I do know a lot of people are using the RPM Edelbrock version of their heads right out of the box and like them.

I think it is more a thing of convenience more than anything with them though.

A 50,000 mile standard bore D2AE-CA 4 bolt block would be nice to work with.

You need to restrict the oil to the lifter gallery, left side and the cam bearings. You really should do the valve lifter restrictor bushings too.

A stroker is nice but you really don't need to go crazy. Even a 377 is nice. It will make the heads work better. Sharper quicker response to the throttle.

I'm an old timer I suppose and I like the "rev-ability" of the stock 3.50" stroke. To me that's what a small block is all about.

Others like the big hump of a 400 something cubic inch engine.

I personally would have to be judicious about applying the throttle to one of those because I would likely break the ZF.

It really is at it's limit at 550foot-pounds of torque. Not to mention the clutch.

With my little 357, I can womp on it all I want and the ZF is like a Timex. "It takes a licking and keeps on ticking!" Google John Cameron Swazey. It will explain that comment to you younger guys.

Heine, in the photos I noticed your chassis has the early single-point ZF mount in back. If you're going to upgrade to more power & torque, I suggest adding aftermarket-conversion ZF frame mounts that attach- not to the back of the ZF but to a pair of arms at the sides of the transmission case. These steel frame extensions were welded in place in later models and attached via a pair of cast-aluminum arms with rubber isolators built in. I've also seen some frame extensions that were locally fabricated, as well as a few that used salvaged extensions from wrecks or burned-out cars. The later system gives a 4-point mount (with the stock engine mounts) and better braces the powertrain. Plus original single-point rear mounts are getting harder to find in good useable condition after 43 years!

Nice progress! Still quite a journey ahead.

@Doug:

Keep the input comming. This is exactly what I was hoping for.
I too like when the engine revs like a racecar, so keepeing the stock 3,5" crank in it, might be the best ?


@Bosswrench:
I've rerad about those transmounts before. I know a place here in Denmark, where there is 5 Pantera's parked side by side. Sounds like I will have to go there and look at how I can upgrade it.

Looks like I will be pretty busy this Winter !!!

quote:

Originally posted by danishcarnut:
@Doug:

Keep the input comming. This is exactly what I was hoping for.
I too like when the engine revs like a racecar, so keepeing the stock 3,5" crank in it, might be the best ?


!

That is my preference. The longer the stroke the less it is going to accelerate the rpm's.

With a 3.5" stroke or LESS there is less reciprocating mass to accelerate.

The same goes for hydraulic lifters or roller lifter cam shafts.

You can get 500hp and 500 ft-lbs of torque out of a 357 without much problem.

It all depends on how you want the engine to be.

You certainly will get other opinions on this but to me a healthy pumped up 351 is what the original concept of the car was all about.

The car breaks traction and goes sideways now. A stroker will just make the circle complete. It's not going to go any faster because you cannot get the additional torque down onto the pavement.

quote:

I've rerad about those transmounts before. I know a place here in Denmark, where there is 5 Pantera's parked side by side. Sounds like I will have to go there and look at how I can upgrade it.

Jep - just let us know when you turn up. We have all evolutions of the early pantera chassis represented :-) - including my car which has IPSCOs aftermarket version of the ZF sidemount kit.

quote:

Originally posted by Push1267:
Jep - just let us know when you turn up. We have all evolutions of the early pantera chassis represented :-) - including my car which has IPSCOs aftermarket version of the ZF sidemount kit.

Haha - Yeah, we will have to find a date, so I can swing by and have some coffee and kick some tires. I'll get in touch with You, Kristian

Wow Heine, You guys are rockin. Beautiful car!

Heine,

Here's a picture of my engine bay right after I shot it with the POR-15 truck bed liner kit. It approximates the original appearance and looks great! Has more sheen/gloss than the undercoating and smaller pebbling. I love it, and it's not another surface that needs to be polished.


http://www.banzairunnerpantera.com/adventures.htm

I like it! Does this get hard? One of the spray on liners I saw on a new Dodge ram has a sprayed on liner that is very hard.

I tried some in a rattle can and it was very soft and scratched easily.

I like what you did. It has a nice clean utilitarian look to it.

Just as I was sure that I wanted a smooth, shiny surface, this pops up. Now I don't know what to do. It looks great !!!!

Glad I'm not shooting tomorrow - Still have some time to think it over.

Thank You for the input (I think....)

here was what my blue car looked like.

VERY nice and clean. Is it truck bedliner too ?
I like the Black engine too. Never liked the blue engine in my red car.
Like that You also did hide the wires for the taillights. I have to do that too.

Noticed that You plugged the hole for the oilpressure switch ? Any special reason for doing that ?

Update on my Enginebay project and Engine rebuild

Still scraping, grinding etc. - That Black stuff is a real pain in the butt !!!

Also removed the crossmember, and will replace it with a removeable ditto



Started to remove all the Black stuff in the rear wheelwells to, as it allready was started to scale.




Not pretty, but keeps the rust away...


And here we go.....


Unbelieveable... Hard to see that the car is over 40 years old !




My "new" block. A 4 bolt main D2AE-CA in Std. bore. It will recieve a 393 or 393 Stroker kit, when I firgure out what exactly I wanna use. I'm in contact with Mike Drew about this.


Funny thing is that the casting date is dec. 22 - 1972
The day of my 2 years birthday....

More Pantera update

Got my engine boiled and cleaned - Looks like it is right out of the castingcore now





While the engine is at the machineshop, I continued scraping the undercoating off the car. Figured out that the more than 40 year factory undercoating is a rust trap !! Many Places it doesn't even stick to the frame. Some Places it is beginning to scale, so the Water can be trapped underneith it. So it's a good thing to remove it, and start all over before it's to late.


It doesn't stick to the frame at all.


Meet my two new friends. We have spend MANY hours together now, and we're not quite done with eachother yet.


Absolutely no rust, but I'm sure that it was only a matter of time, before it would have started.

keep posting and enjoy your 2 friends !

thanks for posting.
If I recall, I needed a third friend when those two had a heated aurgument! some how I tried to roast the back of my hand so a welding glove for the scraper hand

quote:

I needed a third friend when those two had a heated aurgument! some how I tried to roast the back of my hand so a welding glove for the scraper hand

That happened to me more times than I care to recall when I was scraping the undercoating out of my engine compartment. Be careful here you swing/point that heat gun while scraping!

Looking good Heine. Looks like some tedious work, but the finished product will be worth it.

Looks good, both engine and rust free body. Happy you didn't find a rust trap underneath...

Yeah, I have burned my fingers several times allready. But it's worth it. It will be great when I'm done. Now I just have to find a place to buy POR-15 cheap here in Europe. I have to spend some time on the internet tonight.

Heine,

one POR 15 source in germany:

http://www.korrosionsschutz-de...f1358c3cca64b67081ae

Wolfgang

Perfect - Thanks Wolfgang. There is one dealer in Denmark, but he is outta stock of most of the products. Typical.......

Anyone that has experience with the smiliar product "KBS Coatings" from Australia ?

http://www.kbs-coatings.com.au/

Nice work. I was just catching up and notice this remark:

quote:

Originally posted by danishcarnut:
Noticed that You plugged the hole for the oilpressure switch ? Any special reason for doing that ?

I think he relocated the oil pressure sending unit to the port next to the fuel pump. I did the same thing to mine for a cleaner look.