351c EFI Kit

Doug,

Those are just converted carb intake manifolds. They drill a single plane intake and weld on injector bungs. Lots of places do that.

Dan Jones

Maybe so but 1) it saves me from doing it and 2) I don't need to cut up a Trickflow R manifold.

Doug,
Have you seen my modified intake?

Link

I like the "stealth" aspect of the Mass Flo EFI system, and I touted it for a long time here. Last year I heard a story of a Pantera owner receiving very poor customer service from the organization, and so I've kept quiet about them since then.

Mass Flo evolved from the Quality Roadsters business, an east coast Cobra Replica company. They had developed the efi system because so many of their Cobra customers were requesting EFI for their cars. The demand became so big for their system, from people outside their Cobra customers, that they split the EFI manufacturing business off onto its own & called it Mass Flo. Quality Roadsters has a good rep, so my guess is that the folks running the MassFlo side of the business aren't associated with the Quality Roadsters organization. Or they've gotten so big that customer service has suffered.

Fredrik, did you ever install the EFI system in your car? If so, it would make a good story for the magazine, I'm sure other owners would love to read of your experience.

George

There is a signifigant advantage to a MAF EFI.
You can run a Ford CPU out of whatever vehicle yo like and it already has a funtioning program.

If you go with an aftermarket you need to program then entire map.

I don't know if I'm up to that. I'll find out I suppose.

Nice find Doug ... I happen to agree with you 100% .. I think a programmed CPU has many advantages .. theres too much heresay out there to get a straight answer with IR EFI. But I will find out soon.

Fredrick ..real nice job .. and I too some times feel its easier to make then buy. But I also wiegh the amount of time and effort compared to a tried and proven set up.

Dont believe that you can just run a stock EFI computer. You cant. I put one on the engine it came off of(Mark VIII). I used matching injectors and MAF from another engine(Lightning). I still had to spend some time tuning the system to drive right. I was able to tune the Ford ECM because I bought the tuning software from SCT. The way the software is setup, it has little chance of running IR without a special ECM.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik Gustavsson:
Doug,
Have you seen my modified intake?

Link

Yes I saw it. You did a great job on it. Is it installed and running yet?

Ron, if you use a Haltecg E6X CPU, you don't need a crank trigger. You can use your Motorcrafte electronic distributor.

If anyone finds a VSS (vehicle speed sensor) that will work with the Pantera THAT I CAN GET, please let me know what and where, Thanks.

quote:

Last year I heard a story of a Pantera owner receiving very poor customer service from the organization,

Heck, I've talked to enough Pantera owners to hear a terrible story about every vendor we have available to us. I've only written off the ones that have dropped the ball with me personally, not the ones that someone else had problems with.

No one bats 1000 every day, every year. MassFlo may have been having a bad day, the owner may have had a bad day, the stars may not have been in alignment.

One bad feedback isn't enough to write them off.

my 2¢

Larry

quote:

If anyone finds a VSS (vehicle speed sensor) that will work with the Pantera THAT I CAN GET, please let me know what and where, Thanks.

Doug, check out this thread.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9550045562/m/7780038783/p/1

I did purchase one of these units, out of the UK. See this link

http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9550045562...110011314#5110011314

These still show up on eBay UK. Most will ship to USA and take Paypal. I still have just the one.

You're welcome

Larry

Larry that is the part I need but I can't find it new in the US. It's a euro Festiva part.

I looked in Standard (aftermarket)listings also and haven't found it yet.

If anyone finds a US source it is a critical part for anyone who is going to any kind of EFI on the Pantera whatever system you go to.

Your friends here would appreciate the info.

If you don't use one, the car will stall when it decellerates.

It comes up on a Google search of Ford 7151113 but it is in German. I barely speak English.

And yes, Roland Jackle has it if you want the easy way out.

I would like to point out that I think it would be better to find a local universal source, rather then just one. Particularly one accross the pond.

If that one source "dries up" then there could be a problem.

I hope that his feelings aren't hurt by me. I certainly don't mean to do that.
It isn't an expensive part and I think that for the couple of Euros he's making on them he doesn't really care where you buy it. I think he is just trying to help us out.

Doug and George,
I'm installing the system on the car right now. It takes long time because I have to make several custom parts such as brackets, air intake tube, wiring harness and a lot of other things. My goal is to have a running system in the end of April.

PD,

You can probably walk in to any Ford dealer in the UK and get it off the shelf! If it becomes an issue I have family in the UK

I broke down the part # and it appears the 9E731 is a generic Ford reference to a VSS (vehicle speed sensor), 94BB (and 94BZ) brings up Ford Probe, Contour & Mercury Mystique 95 model year and the DA may be reference to manual transmission.

On that basis and a little web research Kragen's (Parts America) show this;

VSS Mystique

The close up photo actually shows part # 94BB-9E731-A? Gotta be worth a trip to your local Kragen's and $53 to find out if it fits. If not you can just return it.

Julian

Julian, that's a great find thanks.

A lot of applications will look the same on the outside.
The problem is going to be the calibration. The one that we need is for 8 pulses per revolution.

Some are for 6 pulses. How can you tell them appart? They aren't listed by that.

They all look like they will bolt up.

quote:

If anyone finds a VSS (vehicle speed sensor) that will work with the Pantera THAT I CAN GET, please let me know what and where, Thanks.

Doug, I just recently installed an electronic speedometer in my Pantera. I used a speed sensor from Speedometer Service Company in Milwaukee. It mounts to the ZF where the 90 degree adapter is. You do not need the adapter. The part number is HE22CS. Talk to Roger. His number is 414-463-6660. Scott

Thanks Scott, that certainly is an alternative that wasn't considered.
If I may, how expensive is it?

It was $115.00.

quote:

Originally posted by Joules5:
PD,

You can probably walk in to any Ford dealer in the UK and get it off the shelf! If it becomes an issue I have family in the UK

I broke down the part # and it appears the 9E731 is a generic Ford reference to a VSS (vehicle speed sensor), 94BB (and 94BZ) brings up Ford Probe, Contour & Mercury Mystique 95 model year and the DA may be reference to manual transmission.

On that basis and a little web research Kragen's (Parts America) show this;

VSS Mystique

The close up photo actually shows part # 94BB-9E731-A? Gotta be worth a trip to your local Kragen's and $53 to find out if it fits. If not you can just return it.

Julian

Julian, what model year Mystique is this part from?

Doug, Year model Mystique was 1995, I think this is the first year they came out.

Julian

Julian, the search isn't working for me. You searched 95 Mercury Mystique GS.
What engine, what trans? I come up with a different picture and part number.

quote:

A lot of applications will look the same on the outside. The problem is going to be the calibration. The one that we need is for 8 pulses per revolution.

Doug,

EFI is a BIG unknown to me, but it seems a CPU for EFI should/could adapt to various VSS input criteria.

How sure are you that only the 8 pulse units will work? And, in layman terms for this old guy, why?

Thanks,

Larry

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:

quote:

A lot of applications will look the same on the outside. The problem is going to be the calibration. The one that we need is for 8 pulses per revolution.

Doug,

EFI is a BIG unknown to me, but it seems a CPU for EFI should/could adapt to various VSS input criteria.

How sure are you that only the 8 pulse units will work? And, in layman terms for this old guy, why?

Thanks,

Larry

I don't know where it comes from. It's just what I read. I hate it when I read.

Larry, are you being pulled to the dark, I mean towards EFI?

quote:

Larry, are you being pulled to the dark, I mean towards EFI?

Well, I'd certainly be willing to entertain EFI on a future engine, but not until Ed Mc Mahon appears at my front door or I sell of LOT of tail lights

Larry

Doug,

95 Mystique LS (it didn't prompt for engine or transmission type) and then VSS in the search box. Alternatively the easy way...the Kragen part # is 7799714, search using that.

Julian

Why do you need the VSS. I have not used one before with EFI. You dont have an automatic trannie or Cruise, do you?

CD, my answer (which implies that it may be controverial or wrong) is that I am running an IR EFI.
There really are only two choices as how to run that.
N-Alpha or Speed Density.
N-Alpha is pretty close in attributes to a mechanical fuel injection system in run characteristics, i.e., idles just enough to know the engine is running, and runs great at wot, but not much in between.

In order to tame the beast, the more maps that the computer can read from the more accurate it will be on telling the engine what to do.

Speed density is really just the addition of engine vacuum to a N-Alpha system. So it only has the oxygen sensor, the tps and the engine vacuum to determine what to do.
In the case of the Haltech E6x, it would also have an internal (inside the processor) barometric pressure adjustment. This would be the adjustment for altitude and humidity.

In order for that to be accurate, the cpu would also need to know the engine coolant temperature, the incoming air temperature. You could also add a knock sensor and the VSS. So it is really a speed density plus system.

The vehicle speed sensor tells the computer if the car is moving. If it didn't when you took your foot off of the accellerator to brake for a turn, the throttle would return to closed, the vacuum would be high and the cpu would think the car was idling.

If there were other loads on the engine such as high alternator or a/c compressor, the engine rpm might drop to maybe 500 rpm. Now depending on the nature of the engine, hot cam, port velocity due to big ports-small ports, it might not want to idle there at the momentary 500rpm.

On some carburetored engines there is a throttle solinoid. Remember those?

Well just think of the VSS as a throttle solinoid, but better. Depending on the vehicle speed, it will hold the idle rpm at a certain level. If you are say at 100mph breaking into a turn and downshifting it might hold it at 1,600rpm?

Also the idle air valve/motor, is going to adjust the air coming into the engine, mostly at idle for idle quality, to keep the engine at an rpm level to keep it from stalling, like the choke cam does when it's working right.

These added maps that the cpu can read and combine will digitally replace all of the old inaccurate carb mechanical devices to put the engine at the proper positions at a rate of 200 to 300 times per second, depending on the CPU.

So yes you can run without the VSS and idle air valve/motor, but why would you want to?

Oh, and also, it is my understanding that the Ford CPU's are made for MAF applications. Again I may be wrong. I so often am you know?

If I was going to do a 5.0 Mustang type MAF EFI system on the Pantera, I would start with a CPU application that is closer to what I want my finished product to be such as a 351 Mustang Cobra with a manual transmission.

The tables are already going to be closer from the factory to what I want. I would copy the sensor arrangement that the vehicle used. Hopefully I could get the entire car harness.

That's as adventuresome as I want to be. I don't need to change the parameters of the car.
In my case, which certainly is not everyone elses, I want the appearance of yestertech. That is the attration of the car to me.

If I can make the car appear to be period vintage correct with it's Webbers (but they're not, they're FI) then I'm pretty happy.

If I was just out for an ultimate brute then why would I even mess with a Hemi? Just plug in a big old ugly orange crate motor.
To me that is sac-religious. Detomaso wouldn't do it so neither will I. But this is all just me and I'm obviously very screwed up.

An example that comes to mind as a illustrative comparison would be what I call a '67 Shelby GT500 and what the Nicholas Cage version of "Gone in 60 Seconds" calls it.

I don't agree with that movies concept of the car. It should be in "Star Wars" instead. But maybe I'm just predjudiced because I have a real one?

I gotta go talk to my shrink again I see.

A couple of quick info points.

aplha n uses throttle position as the main determiner of fuel. Speed density substitutes Manifold pressure. The same ecm can be used but the maps look very much different. A map system can run with each RPM setting the same for the corresponding MAP values. Alpha n must have a map that is based on curves.

Alpha N can be made to run very well, but it requires multi dimentional maps. You need to have a 3 dimentional map based on Speed, TPS and Inlet air temp. You dont need inlet air temp in Mass air flow because the air density changes are reflected in a change in vacuum.

Coolant temp really only needs to be used for warmup since you need extra fuel when the combustion chamber is cold.

Yes, Ford ECUs are designed for MAF. Except for late 80s models.

One difficult thing to remember about alpha n is that it is very sensative to engine changes. Map will tollerate moderate changes with no adjustmente needed. MAF will tollerate a wide range of changes. Alpha N can make the engine run like crap as the rings and valves wear. Race cars dont have to worry about this since they are rebuild all the time and are often only tuned to run at high throttle settings and really dont run well at what you would call street driving. A little better than mechanical, but not much.

quote:

The one that we need is for 8 pulses per revolution.

Found a source that listed the Contour VSS as:

pulse-8000

Other source talked of 2000, 4000 and 8,000 pulses per mile VSS signals

Not sure what this means...

Larry

Larry, the Haltech tech man says it doesn't matter how many pulses there are.
You have to adjust the speedometer on the computer software graph to match the speed on the cars speedometer.
Synchronize I suppose the term would be.

He said put it on a dyno. I say just put it on jack stands and run it in gear.

Hum gear? He didn't say what gear. Yeah, I don't think it matters.