Anyone ever put a Ford 400 engine in a Pantera? Anyone know of a source for bellhousings?
Gary
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
its the same as 351 c
From what I have read, the 400 has a different bellhousing than a Cleveland.
G
G
the 400 with the small block bell housing are hard to find, but some where made, 1 year only. The 400 deck height is 10.2", a full inch taller than the Cleveland. If an induction system poking through the engine screen would bother you, forget the 400. The 400 is a thinwall casting and has all the structural problems the Cleveland does, plus there are fewer aftermarket choices with that engine.
With a stroker kit (377 cu.in.), aluminum heads from Australia (CHI or AFD) and a roller cam, your Cleveland can make 500 sreetable horsepower. This is too easy. No need for an engine swap.
george
#6018
With a stroker kit (377 cu.in.), aluminum heads from Australia (CHI or AFD) and a roller cam, your Cleveland can make 500 sreetable horsepower. This is too easy. No need for an engine swap.
george
#6018
Take note that the motor mounts are different too.
Comp. You don't want a 400. its a modified like the 351m, and in my opinion not good for anything but a light truck or a grocery getter. P.j.
Well it's a grocery getter because I believe it's not been explored. I have one and Jon Kaase just won the popular hotrodding master engine builders with one using off the shelf components; almost 700hp. The advantage is bigger cubes which means hp without having to stress the engine so much. So many people are taking smaller engines and winding them up. My brother has abused a 460 and it produces hp and torque at a reletively low rpm. It has been a bullit proof engine in the Cobra. After 35,000 hard miles including much of it on a track or drag strip he did a tear down. Minor bearing wear and almost no cylinder wear. So often people simply repeat what has been said and don't think outside the box. The cleveland was always touted as a great engine and the 400 was always touted as a grocery getter. I don't get it. With 3v heads, a good intake, cam and a few other things it should be a strong engine too.The biggest draw back is the shortcoming of performance parts but people are starting to look at it more. Weighs more, yea, but not like the big blocks.
Wasn't there a bell housing for the big block to the ZF?
Gary
Wasn't there a bell housing for the big block to the ZF?
Gary
Gary,
I'm hearing you.
cubic inches are your cup of tea.
Folks have bolted the ZF to the 385 series motor(429, 460). Requires mounting the ZF further back in the chassis, the engine is longer. Puts a greater angle on the half shafts. I don't know the details. The common 385 series stroker is 514 cubes!
The easiest way to equip the Pantera with cubic inches will be a 351W based stroker, common displacements being 393, 408, 427 & 454. This block has the same trans bolt pattern, same engine mounts as the 351C. PI motorsports sells conversion kits. Gives you the option of using the less expensive & abundantly available aftermarket Windsor heads, or using Cleveland heads and building a Clevor.
I haven't seen the technical details about Kaase's Engine Masters motor, but since he chose to run canted valve heads he was constrained by rules to use a block that was originally equipped with canted valve heads. The displacement limit for that contest was 410 cu.in. & its easier to achieve 410 cu.in. with the 400 than the 351C. But those motors do not equate to the same world where you & I are operating our Panteras. My advice is don't let Kaase's choice influence your selection.
regards,
george
#6018
I'm hearing you.
cubic inches are your cup of tea.
Folks have bolted the ZF to the 385 series motor(429, 460). Requires mounting the ZF further back in the chassis, the engine is longer. Puts a greater angle on the half shafts. I don't know the details. The common 385 series stroker is 514 cubes!
The easiest way to equip the Pantera with cubic inches will be a 351W based stroker, common displacements being 393, 408, 427 & 454. This block has the same trans bolt pattern, same engine mounts as the 351C. PI motorsports sells conversion kits. Gives you the option of using the less expensive & abundantly available aftermarket Windsor heads, or using Cleveland heads and building a Clevor.
I haven't seen the technical details about Kaase's Engine Masters motor, but since he chose to run canted valve heads he was constrained by rules to use a block that was originally equipped with canted valve heads. The displacement limit for that contest was 410 cu.in. & its easier to achieve 410 cu.in. with the 400 than the 351C. But those motors do not equate to the same world where you & I are operating our Panteras. My advice is don't let Kaase's choice influence your selection.
regards,
george
#6018
quote:
Originally posted by george pence:
Gary,
I'm hearing you.
cubic inches are your cup of tea.
Folks have bolted the ZF to the 385 series motor(429, 460). Requires mounting the ZF further back in the chassis, the engine is longer. Puts a greater angle on the half shafts. I don't know the details. The common 385 series stroker is 514 cubes!
regards,
george
#6018
Even though the 385 serries puts the tansaxle back further, wouldn't the 400 be in the same spot as the cleveland? It has the same external dymentions of a Cleveland except for the increase in deck height. It's basically a stroked cleveland.
Gary,
Correct, the 400 is the same length as the 351C, snout to tail.
George
#6018
Correct, the 400 is the same length as the 351C, snout to tail.
George
#6018
> You don't want a 400. its a modified like the 351m, and in my opinion not
> good for anything but a light truck or a grocery getter.
They had very low compression, a wimpy cam, 2 barrel carb, single exhaust
and were total dogs in stock early emissions-era form but there's no
reason they have to stay that way. The potential is there since they are
essentially just 351 Clevelands with (usually) thicker walls, a half inch
longer stroke (for the 400), an inch taller deck (10.297" vs 9.206") and
nice long rods (6.580" vs 5.778"). Slap a set of 4V heads, aluminum
high ports or CHI heads on top with a matching intake (use the spacers),
a decent cam and compression and it'll be a completely different engine.
I know a guy who drag raced a 400 like that for several seasons, turning
7000 RPM through the traps.
> Jon Kaase just won the popular hotrodding master engine builders with one
> using off the shelf components; almost 700hp.
No. John Kaase used an XE 4-bolt main Australian 351C block for his winning
entry. It was stroked with a Sonny Bryant 4" stroke 351C crank. Kaase
originally wanted to use a 351M/400 block to take advantage of the 1" taller
deck height but the rules makers at PHR wouldn't allow it. Nor would they
allow the use of an aftermarket block for 351C so I sold Jon my XE block.
> Weighs more, yea, but not like the big blocks.
The 351M/400 blocks are around 196 lbs. Aluminum heads will easily offset
the weight of the block. I have one of the small-block pattern 400 blocks
that I was going to use before I got the XE block which in turn has been
replaced by a Fontana aluminum block. The nice thing about the 351M/400
blocks is can offset grind the cranks and take the displacement to 430+
cubes and still have good wall thickness. One cheap combo is to use a
set of late 240/6 cylinder Ford rods.
> Wasn't there a bell housing for the big block to the ZF?
Yes, most 351M/400 blocks have the 429/460 bellhosuing pattern.
> Take note that the motor mounts are different too.
400's have unique (3 bolt holes in a triangular pattern) motor mounts but
the ones with the small block pattern also have additional undrilled bosses
in the small block motor mount location. Oddly enough, it seems to be hit
or miss wether a particular block will have all 4 or just 3 of the required
bosses. As it turns out, it doesn't really matter for a Pantera since it
should be quite easy to make a custom upper mount.
Panteras use a three piece motor mount set up with one aluminum casting
bolted to the block with two vertical bolts, another bolted to the frame,
and a rubber donut bolted in between at a 45 degree angle. Since the 400's
motor mounts bosses are already at 45 degrees (351C's are vertical), the
upper mount can be quite simple. A triangular flat plate with 3 bolts holes,
a circular cut out for the donut and through bolt, and maybe a cut out for
wrench clearance should do the trick.
> The easiest way to equip the Pantera with cubic inches will be a 351W based
> stroker, common displacements being 393, 408, 427 & 454. This block has the
> same trans bolt pattern, same engine mounts as the 351C.
You can stroke 351C blocks to 408 (and 393, 377, etc) without drama.
That would be the easiest way to get extra cubes.
> I haven't seen the technical details about Kaase's Engine Masters motor, but
> since he chose to run canted valve heads he was constrained by rules to use a
> block that was originally equipped with canted valve heads. The displacement
> limit for that contest was 410 cu.in. & its easier to achieve 410 cu.in. with
> the 400 than the 351C.
Yes but none of the entries used 351M/400 blocks as they were deemed an
unfair advantage (longer rods, more stable ring pack). There were five or
six Cleveland-based EMC entries. All but one used a 351C block.
Jon Kaase - CHI head, 351C XE block, Sonny Bryant crank
Dave Mclain, Scott Johnson, Brian Adams - CHI heads, SCAT crank, stock block
Tony Bischoff - 351C with Blue Thunder heads, 4.06" bore x 3.95" stroke
Jeff Lawrence - iron 4V heads and 351C block, 4.035" bore x 4.0" stroke
Scott Main and Bob Moore - CHI "Boss 302" heads on big-bore Dart 302 block
Note that Scott Main got around the rule by running a Boss 302. He used a
Dart block bored to 4.25" and 3.6" stroke crank to get 408.5 cubes. Way
out there on the ragged edge but good enough to make the finals. Also note
that the CHI heads were among the best legal for the EMC competition heads
but that doesn't mean they are the best of the best. High port heads like
the Ford Motorsport C302, B351, A3 and Brodix C302B clones were not legal
and can flow as well as or better than the CHI heads. My A3's and C302's
outflow CHI's claimed numbers due primarily to the raised ports. Since
off-the-shelf headers are available for high ports, they are a good choice
for Panteras. Still the CHI heads are good pieces. Just wait until you see
how much better Kaase's heads flow than the Windsor or SBC competition.
> But those motors do not equate to the same world where you & I are operating
> our Panteras. My advice is don't let Kaase's choice influence your selection.
True but there will good lessons to learn. You'll see it's cylinder
head/intake flow, compression ratio, camshaft (RPM), and cubes that make
power.
> Even though the 385 serries puts the tansaxle back further, wouldn't the 400
> be in the same spot as the cleveland? It has the same external dymentions of
> a Cleveland except for the increase in deck height. It's basically a stroked
> cleveland.
Yes.
400's make sense for a Pantera where they minimize the
swap hassles and make maximum re-use of existing engine parts. They also
make sense for trucks or cars already equipped with a 351M (or stock 400),
since there is no swap cost involved. For most other applications, the
tendency is to jump to a 460 if you can stand the weight or go to a stroked
351W if you can't.
As far as 400 potential goes, here's a dyno test from a guy I know that
built one for a Pantera:
"Well, here's the info most of you have been waiting for....I took the Pantera
motor to Cobra Restorers, in Kennesaw, GA, after getting fed up w/not being
able to tune the carbs up properly, and then had it dynoed by my engine
builder, when he got up above 4000 rpms I left the room b/c I was afraid
what might happen. Here are the results:
RPM HP TQ
2000 158 415
2500 212 445
3000 274 480
3500 352 527
4000 431 566
4500 500 583
5000 543 571
5500 567 541
6000 577 505
6500 567 458
Here are the engine parts:
Ford 400 FMX block, bored .030", 4-bolt main
Stock rods/crank
Arias forged pistons
351C 4V heads, ported, 2.19/1.76 SS valves, 11:1 CR
Comp Pro Magnum 1.73 intake/1.8 exhaust roller rockers
Hall Pantera manifold
PME intake spacers
Weber 48 IDA's, 45mm chokes, Inglese needle/seats/circuits
Comp 32-771-8 Magnum roller cam
GTS Equal-length 2" headers"
----------------------------------------------
Part Number 32-771-8
Engine 1970-1982 Ford
351ci-400ci
351C, 351M-400M,
8cyl.
Grind Number FC 288R-10
Description
----------------------------------------------
Intake Exhaust
Valve Adjustment 0.02 0.02
Gross Valve Lift 0.623 0.623
Duration At 0.015 288 288
Tappet Lift
Valve Timing At 0.015:
Open Close
Intake 38 70
Exhaust 78 30
Specs For the Cam Installed at 106 Intake CL:
Intake Exhaust
Duration At 0.05 244 244
Lobe Lift 0.3666 0.3666
Lobe Separation 110
Recommended Valve Springs 929-16
150 lbs @ 1.90"
434 lbs @ 1.23"
437 lb/in
Dan Jones
> good for anything but a light truck or a grocery getter.
They had very low compression, a wimpy cam, 2 barrel carb, single exhaust
and were total dogs in stock early emissions-era form but there's no
reason they have to stay that way. The potential is there since they are
essentially just 351 Clevelands with (usually) thicker walls, a half inch
longer stroke (for the 400), an inch taller deck (10.297" vs 9.206") and
nice long rods (6.580" vs 5.778"). Slap a set of 4V heads, aluminum
high ports or CHI heads on top with a matching intake (use the spacers),
a decent cam and compression and it'll be a completely different engine.
I know a guy who drag raced a 400 like that for several seasons, turning
7000 RPM through the traps.
> Jon Kaase just won the popular hotrodding master engine builders with one
> using off the shelf components; almost 700hp.
No. John Kaase used an XE 4-bolt main Australian 351C block for his winning
entry. It was stroked with a Sonny Bryant 4" stroke 351C crank. Kaase
originally wanted to use a 351M/400 block to take advantage of the 1" taller
deck height but the rules makers at PHR wouldn't allow it. Nor would they
allow the use of an aftermarket block for 351C so I sold Jon my XE block.
> Weighs more, yea, but not like the big blocks.
The 351M/400 blocks are around 196 lbs. Aluminum heads will easily offset
the weight of the block. I have one of the small-block pattern 400 blocks
that I was going to use before I got the XE block which in turn has been
replaced by a Fontana aluminum block. The nice thing about the 351M/400
blocks is can offset grind the cranks and take the displacement to 430+
cubes and still have good wall thickness. One cheap combo is to use a
set of late 240/6 cylinder Ford rods.
> Wasn't there a bell housing for the big block to the ZF?
Yes, most 351M/400 blocks have the 429/460 bellhosuing pattern.
> Take note that the motor mounts are different too.
400's have unique (3 bolt holes in a triangular pattern) motor mounts but
the ones with the small block pattern also have additional undrilled bosses
in the small block motor mount location. Oddly enough, it seems to be hit
or miss wether a particular block will have all 4 or just 3 of the required
bosses. As it turns out, it doesn't really matter for a Pantera since it
should be quite easy to make a custom upper mount.
Panteras use a three piece motor mount set up with one aluminum casting
bolted to the block with two vertical bolts, another bolted to the frame,
and a rubber donut bolted in between at a 45 degree angle. Since the 400's
motor mounts bosses are already at 45 degrees (351C's are vertical), the
upper mount can be quite simple. A triangular flat plate with 3 bolts holes,
a circular cut out for the donut and through bolt, and maybe a cut out for
wrench clearance should do the trick.
> The easiest way to equip the Pantera with cubic inches will be a 351W based
> stroker, common displacements being 393, 408, 427 & 454. This block has the
> same trans bolt pattern, same engine mounts as the 351C.
You can stroke 351C blocks to 408 (and 393, 377, etc) without drama.
That would be the easiest way to get extra cubes.
> I haven't seen the technical details about Kaase's Engine Masters motor, but
> since he chose to run canted valve heads he was constrained by rules to use a
> block that was originally equipped with canted valve heads. The displacement
> limit for that contest was 410 cu.in. & its easier to achieve 410 cu.in. with
> the 400 than the 351C.
Yes but none of the entries used 351M/400 blocks as they were deemed an
unfair advantage (longer rods, more stable ring pack). There were five or
six Cleveland-based EMC entries. All but one used a 351C block.
Jon Kaase - CHI head, 351C XE block, Sonny Bryant crank
Dave Mclain, Scott Johnson, Brian Adams - CHI heads, SCAT crank, stock block
Tony Bischoff - 351C with Blue Thunder heads, 4.06" bore x 3.95" stroke
Jeff Lawrence - iron 4V heads and 351C block, 4.035" bore x 4.0" stroke
Scott Main and Bob Moore - CHI "Boss 302" heads on big-bore Dart 302 block
Note that Scott Main got around the rule by running a Boss 302. He used a
Dart block bored to 4.25" and 3.6" stroke crank to get 408.5 cubes. Way
out there on the ragged edge but good enough to make the finals. Also note
that the CHI heads were among the best legal for the EMC competition heads
but that doesn't mean they are the best of the best. High port heads like
the Ford Motorsport C302, B351, A3 and Brodix C302B clones were not legal
and can flow as well as or better than the CHI heads. My A3's and C302's
outflow CHI's claimed numbers due primarily to the raised ports. Since
off-the-shelf headers are available for high ports, they are a good choice
for Panteras. Still the CHI heads are good pieces. Just wait until you see
how much better Kaase's heads flow than the Windsor or SBC competition.
> But those motors do not equate to the same world where you & I are operating
> our Panteras. My advice is don't let Kaase's choice influence your selection.
True but there will good lessons to learn. You'll see it's cylinder
head/intake flow, compression ratio, camshaft (RPM), and cubes that make
power.
> Even though the 385 serries puts the tansaxle back further, wouldn't the 400
> be in the same spot as the cleveland? It has the same external dymentions of
> a Cleveland except for the increase in deck height. It's basically a stroked
> cleveland.
Yes.
400's make sense for a Pantera where they minimize the
swap hassles and make maximum re-use of existing engine parts. They also
make sense for trucks or cars already equipped with a 351M (or stock 400),
since there is no swap cost involved. For most other applications, the
tendency is to jump to a 460 if you can stand the weight or go to a stroked
351W if you can't.
As far as 400 potential goes, here's a dyno test from a guy I know that
built one for a Pantera:
"Well, here's the info most of you have been waiting for....I took the Pantera
motor to Cobra Restorers, in Kennesaw, GA, after getting fed up w/not being
able to tune the carbs up properly, and then had it dynoed by my engine
builder, when he got up above 4000 rpms I left the room b/c I was afraid
what might happen. Here are the results:
RPM HP TQ
2000 158 415
2500 212 445
3000 274 480
3500 352 527
4000 431 566
4500 500 583
5000 543 571
5500 567 541
6000 577 505
6500 567 458
Here are the engine parts:
Ford 400 FMX block, bored .030", 4-bolt main
Stock rods/crank
Arias forged pistons
351C 4V heads, ported, 2.19/1.76 SS valves, 11:1 CR
Comp Pro Magnum 1.73 intake/1.8 exhaust roller rockers
Hall Pantera manifold
PME intake spacers
Weber 48 IDA's, 45mm chokes, Inglese needle/seats/circuits
Comp 32-771-8 Magnum roller cam
GTS Equal-length 2" headers"
----------------------------------------------
Part Number 32-771-8
Engine 1970-1982 Ford
351ci-400ci
351C, 351M-400M,
8cyl.
Grind Number FC 288R-10
Description
----------------------------------------------
Intake Exhaust
Valve Adjustment 0.02 0.02
Gross Valve Lift 0.623 0.623
Duration At 0.015 288 288
Tappet Lift
Valve Timing At 0.015:
Open Close
Intake 38 70
Exhaust 78 30
Specs For the Cam Installed at 106 Intake CL:
Intake Exhaust
Duration At 0.05 244 244
Lobe Lift 0.3666 0.3666
Lobe Separation 110
Recommended Valve Springs 929-16
150 lbs @ 1.90"
434 lbs @ 1.23"
437 lb/in
Dan Jones
Dan,
Thanks for the info. That was very helpfull! I have a 400 my brother got at an auction and it just seemed to us a worthy replacement with a lot of potential.
Gary
Evansville, IN
Thanks for the info. That was very helpfull! I have a 400 my brother got at an auction and it just seemed to us a worthy replacement with a lot of potential.
Gary
Evansville, IN
Gary,
What hadn't sunken into my mind until after my last post was that you already had the 400 engine. Cutting through all the other c**p I wrote about 460s & Windsors, I agree the 400 makes sense, since you already have the engine & you want more cu. inches.
Its clear to you now that you'll need to adapt the ZF & motor mounts (which are do-able) & there is a vertical clearance issue (personally I don't like induction systems poking through the engine screen). Keep this one company in mind, Price Motorsports, the PME Dan listed, they have a very extensive line of intake manifold adapters (spacers). This will allow you to use your 4V heads & intake on the 400 block, if you decide to use them.
Dan, thanks, again.
Personally, my mantra is a 377 cu.in. stroker, AFD heads (2V) & a roller cam. A very powerful "street" engine can be achieved with these parts. You'll read me over and again promoting this package.
George
What hadn't sunken into my mind until after my last post was that you already had the 400 engine. Cutting through all the other c**p I wrote about 460s & Windsors, I agree the 400 makes sense, since you already have the engine & you want more cu. inches.
Its clear to you now that you'll need to adapt the ZF & motor mounts (which are do-able) & there is a vertical clearance issue (personally I don't like induction systems poking through the engine screen). Keep this one company in mind, Price Motorsports, the PME Dan listed, they have a very extensive line of intake manifold adapters (spacers). This will allow you to use your 4V heads & intake on the 400 block, if you decide to use them.
Dan, thanks, again.
Personally, my mantra is a 377 cu.in. stroker, AFD heads (2V) & a roller cam. A very powerful "street" engine can be achieved with these parts. You'll read me over and again promoting this package.
George
George,
I already have a 1971 with a group 4 steal body but we have another Pantera in the family that has been sitting in a warehouse for almost 20 years. It is pretty rough. I have another project I am working on this winter but when I can get on top of it I would like to take the other Pantera and do a total tear down. I have a good place to do it. With that kind of tear down, modifications to engine mounts and these sort of things don't bother me. I don't however want to push the transaxle back any further so it seems I am ok with the 400 there. It seems to me the 400 has been ignored or gotten a bad rep from the configration it was sold in. With 3v heads and some other stuff becoming available it intruiges me as an engine. My brother happened to be at an estate auction and picked up a 400 and tranie for $70. After the auction, one of the family members said it was a good engine that he was getting ready top put it in truck. Hopefully should have something good to work from.
Right now I am restoring a 64 MGB and putting in a Chevy V6:
Probably not many Pantera owners cup of tea but I am having fun and it has been a good car to cut my teeth on.
Gary
I already have a 1971 with a group 4 steal body but we have another Pantera in the family that has been sitting in a warehouse for almost 20 years. It is pretty rough. I have another project I am working on this winter but when I can get on top of it I would like to take the other Pantera and do a total tear down. I have a good place to do it. With that kind of tear down, modifications to engine mounts and these sort of things don't bother me. I don't however want to push the transaxle back any further so it seems I am ok with the 400 there. It seems to me the 400 has been ignored or gotten a bad rep from the configration it was sold in. With 3v heads and some other stuff becoming available it intruiges me as an engine. My brother happened to be at an estate auction and picked up a 400 and tranie for $70. After the auction, one of the family members said it was a good engine that he was getting ready top put it in truck. Hopefully should have something good to work from.
Right now I am restoring a 64 MGB and putting in a Chevy V6:
Probably not many Pantera owners cup of tea but I am having fun and it has been a good car to cut my teeth on.
Gary
Gary,
Very pretty Panther you got.
Good luck with the MGB. Enjoying what you're doing is what's important.
Purchasing the 400 for $70 was like purchasing a stroker kit for the 351C for $70, not a bad deal I say. Good luck with that project too. Keep us posted as it progresses.
regards,
George
#6018
Very pretty Panther you got.
Good luck with the MGB. Enjoying what you're doing is what's important.
Purchasing the 400 for $70 was like purchasing a stroker kit for the 351C for $70, not a bad deal I say. Good luck with that project too. Keep us posted as it progresses.
regards,
George
#6018
Thanks George!
Gary
Gary
There has just recently been a discussion on this block in the DeTomaso Forum. Somewhat sketchy details suggest there may be a sturdy 400 block without the thin wall problems common to the 351C. The 400 block came with dual purpose bosses cast into it so it could handle the big block C6 case and the small block FMX case. Same apparently with the motor mount bosses. The correct block is rumored to be found only in 1973 400 equipped LTD's and wagons that came with the FMX. Rancheros came with the C6. To see this thread at the Forum, go to
http://realbig.com/pipermail/detomaso/2004-October/date.html
and view the "clevor motor" thread. Lots of info there.
To answer your question, it HAS been done, but....
Larry
http://realbig.com/pipermail/detomaso/2004-October/date.html
and view the "clevor motor" thread. Lots of info there.
To answer your question, it HAS been done, but....
Larry
> I have a 400 my brother got at an auction and it just seemed to us a worthy
> replacement with a lot of potential.
351M/400 blocks were cast at two different facilites, the Michigan Casting
Center and the Cleveland Foundry. One of the centers produced a batch of
defective blocks during a short period which are prone to cracking. Pick up
a copy of "How to Rebuild Your 351C/351M/400/429/460 Ford V8". It'll have
the details.
> Cutting through all the other c**p I wrote about 460s & Windsors, I agree
> the 400 makes sense, since you already have the engine & you want more cu.
> inches.
400's make sense for a Pantera where they minimize the swap hassles and make
maximum re-use of existing engine parts. They also make sense for trucks or
cars already equipped with a 351M (or stock 400), since there is no swap cost
involved. For most other applications, the tendency is to jump to a 460 if
you can stand the weight or go to a stroked 351W if you can't.
> Its clear to you now that you'll need to adapt the ZF & motor mounts (which
> are do-able)
Mounts are easy and whatever the Byars Brothers are doing for the 460 swaps
will work for the bellhousing.
> there is a vertical clearance issue (personally I don't like induction
> systems poking through the engine screen).
Marino has raised engine screens and Kirk Evans is back in the business.
I think he made the raised engine screens. The other issue is headers.
You'll need at least an inch of vertical clearance. Bill with Weber
equipped 400 used GTS headers but I don't recall if he modified them.
My Hedmans would not clear. Another option would be headers meant for
raised port heads. You might have to redrill the bolt pattern or weld
a new flange on (or just an adpater plate) but the height should be close.
> Keep this one company in mind, Price Motorsports, the PME Dan listed, they
> have a very extensive line of intake manifold adapters (spacers). This will
> allow you to use your 4V heads & intake on the 400 block, if you decide to
> use them.
Weiand also makes a less expensive set of adapters for 2V heads that can
easily be opened up to 4V or other port size heads.
> Dan, thanks, again.
You're welcome.
> Personally, my mantra is a 377 cu.in. stroker, AFD heads (2V) & a roller
> cam. A very powerful "street" engine can be achieved with these parts.
> You'll read me over and again promoting this package.
I've not had any experience with AFD heads. Have you had a set on the
flow bench to see what they do? I've had A3, B351, and C302 on the bench
and several friends have had 2V and 4V on the bench. I like the high port
family of heads. A nice thing is the headers are available off-the-shelf
for Panteras.
> It seems to me the 400 has been ignored or gotten a bad rep from the
> configration it was sold in. With 3v heads and some other stuff becoming
> available it intruiges me as an engine.
On 400 or more cubes, even the 4V would be plenty torquey and make lots
of power. Aluminum heads are nice for the weight savings if the budget
allows.
> Right now I am restoring a 64 MGB and putting in a Chevy V6:
> Probably not many Pantera owners cup of tea but I am having fun and it has
> been a good car to cut my teeth on.
Looks like fun. I've got a couple of Triumphs, myself. TR7V8 coupe
project and a TR8 convertible. Good cheap fun.
> Purchasing the 400 for $70 was like purchasing a stroker kit for the 351C for
> $70, not a bad deal I say. Good luck with that project too. Keep us posted as
> it progresses.
Weigh the costs and hassles of the finding an FMX block or 429/460 bellhousing,
intake adapater plates, raised engine screen, headers etc against the stroker
kit. The nice thing about the stroker kit is you can get thick cylinder walls
and 430+ cubes are possible.
> view the "clevor motor" thread. Lots of info there.
Some of it is even accurate.
Dan Jones
> replacement with a lot of potential.
351M/400 blocks were cast at two different facilites, the Michigan Casting
Center and the Cleveland Foundry. One of the centers produced a batch of
defective blocks during a short period which are prone to cracking. Pick up
a copy of "How to Rebuild Your 351C/351M/400/429/460 Ford V8". It'll have
the details.
> Cutting through all the other c**p I wrote about 460s & Windsors, I agree
> the 400 makes sense, since you already have the engine & you want more cu.
> inches.
400's make sense for a Pantera where they minimize the swap hassles and make
maximum re-use of existing engine parts. They also make sense for trucks or
cars already equipped with a 351M (or stock 400), since there is no swap cost
involved. For most other applications, the tendency is to jump to a 460 if
you can stand the weight or go to a stroked 351W if you can't.
> Its clear to you now that you'll need to adapt the ZF & motor mounts (which
> are do-able)
Mounts are easy and whatever the Byars Brothers are doing for the 460 swaps
will work for the bellhousing.
> there is a vertical clearance issue (personally I don't like induction
> systems poking through the engine screen).
Marino has raised engine screens and Kirk Evans is back in the business.
I think he made the raised engine screens. The other issue is headers.
You'll need at least an inch of vertical clearance. Bill with Weber
equipped 400 used GTS headers but I don't recall if he modified them.
My Hedmans would not clear. Another option would be headers meant for
raised port heads. You might have to redrill the bolt pattern or weld
a new flange on (or just an adpater plate) but the height should be close.
> Keep this one company in mind, Price Motorsports, the PME Dan listed, they
> have a very extensive line of intake manifold adapters (spacers). This will
> allow you to use your 4V heads & intake on the 400 block, if you decide to
> use them.
Weiand also makes a less expensive set of adapters for 2V heads that can
easily be opened up to 4V or other port size heads.
> Dan, thanks, again.
You're welcome.
> Personally, my mantra is a 377 cu.in. stroker, AFD heads (2V) & a roller
> cam. A very powerful "street" engine can be achieved with these parts.
> You'll read me over and again promoting this package.
I've not had any experience with AFD heads. Have you had a set on the
flow bench to see what they do? I've had A3, B351, and C302 on the bench
and several friends have had 2V and 4V on the bench. I like the high port
family of heads. A nice thing is the headers are available off-the-shelf
for Panteras.
> It seems to me the 400 has been ignored or gotten a bad rep from the
> configration it was sold in. With 3v heads and some other stuff becoming
> available it intruiges me as an engine.
On 400 or more cubes, even the 4V would be plenty torquey and make lots
of power. Aluminum heads are nice for the weight savings if the budget
allows.
> Right now I am restoring a 64 MGB and putting in a Chevy V6:
> Probably not many Pantera owners cup of tea but I am having fun and it has
> been a good car to cut my teeth on.
Looks like fun. I've got a couple of Triumphs, myself. TR7V8 coupe
project and a TR8 convertible. Good cheap fun.
> Purchasing the 400 for $70 was like purchasing a stroker kit for the 351C for
> $70, not a bad deal I say. Good luck with that project too. Keep us posted as
> it progresses.
Weigh the costs and hassles of the finding an FMX block or 429/460 bellhousing,
intake adapater plates, raised engine screen, headers etc against the stroker
kit. The nice thing about the stroker kit is you can get thick cylinder walls
and 430+ cubes are possible.
> view the "clevor motor" thread. Lots of info there.
Some of it is even accurate.
Dan Jones
Dan,
I glossed completely over the header issue of the 400 swap, glad you brought it up. Something else for Gary to think about. You're sharp, and very gracious about sharing your knoweledge.
I haven't flowed the AFD heads. I have read good feedback on the Cleveland engine forum re the AFD heads. I perceive them as an improved aussie 2V head, without the intake port limitations, cast in aluminum, and without the aparent intake/exhaust manifolding hassles of the CHI heads.
I admit it is a personal taste issue, but I wouldn't want an induction system poking through, or a hump in my engine screen. An AFD 2V head & Weiand 2V Xcelerator are a low profile combination that are ideal for the rpm range of the "street" motor I would build for myself or recommend for someone else. They replace the A3 heads & A331 manifold (Edelbrock version) I recommended in the past. Admittedly the Ford Motorsports high port heads have greater flow potential. But the Cleveland engine scene has reached a point where folks are building 500 bhp at 6000 rpm with Aussie heads on 377 cu.in. strokers. Thats about 80 bhp per liter. That should keep the Pantera competitive on the street.
at my age, do I need that much car? .............no.........yes.....no........yes
Would I build another motor with A3 heads & an A331 manifold, if I had them? ..........Yes
regards,
George
#6018
I glossed completely over the header issue of the 400 swap, glad you brought it up. Something else for Gary to think about. You're sharp, and very gracious about sharing your knoweledge.
I haven't flowed the AFD heads. I have read good feedback on the Cleveland engine forum re the AFD heads. I perceive them as an improved aussie 2V head, without the intake port limitations, cast in aluminum, and without the aparent intake/exhaust manifolding hassles of the CHI heads.
I admit it is a personal taste issue, but I wouldn't want an induction system poking through, or a hump in my engine screen. An AFD 2V head & Weiand 2V Xcelerator are a low profile combination that are ideal for the rpm range of the "street" motor I would build for myself or recommend for someone else. They replace the A3 heads & A331 manifold (Edelbrock version) I recommended in the past. Admittedly the Ford Motorsports high port heads have greater flow potential. But the Cleveland engine scene has reached a point where folks are building 500 bhp at 6000 rpm with Aussie heads on 377 cu.in. strokers. Thats about 80 bhp per liter. That should keep the Pantera competitive on the street.
at my age, do I need that much car? .............no.........yes.....no........yes
Would I build another motor with A3 heads & an A331 manifold, if I had them? ..........Yes
regards,
George
#6018
I don't mind making headers. I love to weld. I don't mind the engine mounts or making new brackets for the front of the engine. What I don't know is if they make a bell housing for the big block bolt pattern.To sum it up the main issues are:
Engine mounts.
Bellhousing
Headers
Accesorie brackets
Intake manafold height (due to larger deck)
Some issue for intake manafold availability (some good 2V manafolds and adapters for 4V manafolds.
If I can get a bell housing I feel pretty comfortable with the other issues.
Gary
Engine mounts.
Bellhousing
Headers
Accesorie brackets
Intake manafold height (due to larger deck)
Some issue for intake manafold availability (some good 2V manafolds and adapters for 4V manafolds.
If I can get a bell housing I feel pretty comfortable with the other issues.
Gary
> I admit it is a personal taste issue, but I wouldn't want an induction system
> poking through, or a hump in my engine screen. An AFD 2V head & Weiand 2V
> Xcelerator are a low profile combination that are ideal for the rpm range of
> the "street" motor I would build for myself or recommend for someone else.
Should work fine.
> They replace the A3 heads & A331 manifold (Edelbrock version) I recommended
> in the past.
I have a set of those here. With only a bit of bowl clean-up (no porting),
they flowed near 330 CFM which is better than either the CHI or AFD heads
(unported). My C302B's outflow the A3's a bit but they've been ported.
I'm looking forward to seeing Kaase's CHI head flow numbers.
> Admittedly the Ford Motorsports high port heads have greater flow potential.
Yes.
> But the Cleveland engine scene has reached a point where folks are
> building 500 bhp at 6000 rpm with Aussie heads on 377 cu.in. strokers. Thats
> about 80 bhp per liter. That should keep the Pantera competitive on the
> street.
I'm shooting for 550+ HP for my engine. Cubes are 407, the C302 heads flow
332 CFM @ 0.600" lift with good low lift flow so should be realizable. Could
make lots more power but I want to keep it street friendly.
> I don't mind making headers. I love to weld. I don't mind the engine mounts
> or making new brackets for the front of the engine. What I don't know is if
> they make a bell housing for the big block bolt pattern. If I can get a bell
> housing I feel pretty comfortable with the other issues.
Call the Byars Brothers. They do a 460 swap and the 460 shares it's
bellhousing with the standard 351M/400 so whatever they use should work
for you. Whereabouts in Indiana are you? My FMX block is near Cincinnati
(in my dad's storage building) if you want to look it over.
> Some issue for intake manifold availability (some good 2V manifolds and
> adapters for 4V manifolds.
See my intake manifold list below. The Holley Street Dominator 351M-400
is likely the best intake for a strong 400. Think of it as a Weiand Xcelerator
2V for a 351M/400 block. Unlike the 351C Street Dominator which has tiny
ports, the 351M/400 Street Dominator has 2V-sized ports. The best dual plane
is likely the Weiand (which has been advertised as a Stealth but don't be
fooled it's still a low rise dual plane.
Dan Jones
351M/400 Aftermarket 4 Barrel Aluminum Intake Manifold List
-----------------------------------------------------------
Edelbrock S.P.2.P. 400 (P/N 3370)
- low rise (A=3.5", B=4.9") dual plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-4000 rpm
- no longer in production
- low rpm type economy manifold with smaller than stock runners
Edelbrock S.P.2.P. 400-2V (P/N 5171)
- low rise (A=3.7", B=4.95") dual plane with Holley 2BBL carb bolt pattern
- CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-4000 rpm
- low rpm type economy manifold with smaller than stock runners
Edelbrock Streetmaster (P/N 3190)
- low rise single plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- no longer in production
- small port, small plenum, economy type intake
Edelbrock Performer 400 Non-EGR (P/N 2171)
- low rise (A=3.6", B=4.75") dual plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- not CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-5500
- installation notes from Edelbrock catalog : choke block-off plate #8971
incl. recommended intake gasket: Fel-Pro #MS96020.
Edelbrock Performer 400 EGR (P/N 3771)
- low rise (A=3.6", B=4.75") dual plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-5500
- completely different casting from 400 non-EGR
- can be used in three configurations:
1. OEM 2V carb and EGR system with supplied 2V EGR spacer
2. 4V EGR system with either an Edelbrock #8053 4V EGR spacer,
or an Edelbrock #8017 and Ford #E4ZZ9A-589E 4V EGR spacer
3. Non-EGR 4V system with an Edelbrock #8714 adapter.
- installation notes from Edelbrock catalog: recommended intake gasket:
Fel-Pro #MS96020.
Holley Street Dominator 351M-400 (P/N 300-20 or is it 301-14?)
- low rise, open plenum, single plane
- Holley/Carter standard 4 BBL and *Motorcraft* spreadbore carb bolt pattern
- advertised rpm range: idle-5500
- CARB emissions approved
Offenhauser Dual Port 400 (P/N 6033-DP)
- low rise dual port with Holley carb bolt pattern
- not CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-???
- '71 later 400
Offenhauser Dual Port 400 (6034-DP)
- low rise dual port with spread bore carb bolt pattern
- not CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-???
Offenhauser Dual Port 351M (P/N 6141-DP)
- low rise dual port with Holley carb bolt pattern
- not CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-???
- '75 and later 351M
Weiand Action Plus 351M/400 Series (P/N 8010)
- low rise (A=3.75", B=4.75") dual plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- not CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-6000
Notes:
1. The above intakes are for 2V style heads (U.S. and Aussie).
2. For 4V (or 2V) heads you can use spacers and 351C intakes. Weiand makes
spacers (P/N 8205) that mate 351C-2V intake manifolds to 351M/400 blocks.
PME makes spacers for 351C-4V heads on 351M/400 heads.
> poking through, or a hump in my engine screen. An AFD 2V head & Weiand 2V
> Xcelerator are a low profile combination that are ideal for the rpm range of
> the "street" motor I would build for myself or recommend for someone else.
Should work fine.
> They replace the A3 heads & A331 manifold (Edelbrock version) I recommended
> in the past.
I have a set of those here. With only a bit of bowl clean-up (no porting),
they flowed near 330 CFM which is better than either the CHI or AFD heads
(unported). My C302B's outflow the A3's a bit but they've been ported.
I'm looking forward to seeing Kaase's CHI head flow numbers.
> Admittedly the Ford Motorsports high port heads have greater flow potential.
Yes.
> But the Cleveland engine scene has reached a point where folks are
> building 500 bhp at 6000 rpm with Aussie heads on 377 cu.in. strokers. Thats
> about 80 bhp per liter. That should keep the Pantera competitive on the
> street.
I'm shooting for 550+ HP for my engine. Cubes are 407, the C302 heads flow
332 CFM @ 0.600" lift with good low lift flow so should be realizable. Could
make lots more power but I want to keep it street friendly.
> I don't mind making headers. I love to weld. I don't mind the engine mounts
> or making new brackets for the front of the engine. What I don't know is if
> they make a bell housing for the big block bolt pattern. If I can get a bell
> housing I feel pretty comfortable with the other issues.
Call the Byars Brothers. They do a 460 swap and the 460 shares it's
bellhousing with the standard 351M/400 so whatever they use should work
for you. Whereabouts in Indiana are you? My FMX block is near Cincinnati
(in my dad's storage building) if you want to look it over.
> Some issue for intake manifold availability (some good 2V manifolds and
> adapters for 4V manifolds.
See my intake manifold list below. The Holley Street Dominator 351M-400
is likely the best intake for a strong 400. Think of it as a Weiand Xcelerator
2V for a 351M/400 block. Unlike the 351C Street Dominator which has tiny
ports, the 351M/400 Street Dominator has 2V-sized ports. The best dual plane
is likely the Weiand (which has been advertised as a Stealth but don't be
fooled it's still a low rise dual plane.
Dan Jones
351M/400 Aftermarket 4 Barrel Aluminum Intake Manifold List
-----------------------------------------------------------
Edelbrock S.P.2.P. 400 (P/N 3370)
- low rise (A=3.5", B=4.9") dual plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-4000 rpm
- no longer in production
- low rpm type economy manifold with smaller than stock runners
Edelbrock S.P.2.P. 400-2V (P/N 5171)
- low rise (A=3.7", B=4.95") dual plane with Holley 2BBL carb bolt pattern
- CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-4000 rpm
- low rpm type economy manifold with smaller than stock runners
Edelbrock Streetmaster (P/N 3190)
- low rise single plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- no longer in production
- small port, small plenum, economy type intake
Edelbrock Performer 400 Non-EGR (P/N 2171)
- low rise (A=3.6", B=4.75") dual plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- not CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-5500
- installation notes from Edelbrock catalog : choke block-off plate #8971
incl. recommended intake gasket: Fel-Pro #MS96020.
Edelbrock Performer 400 EGR (P/N 3771)
- low rise (A=3.6", B=4.75") dual plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-5500
- completely different casting from 400 non-EGR
- can be used in three configurations:
1. OEM 2V carb and EGR system with supplied 2V EGR spacer
2. 4V EGR system with either an Edelbrock #8053 4V EGR spacer,
or an Edelbrock #8017 and Ford #E4ZZ9A-589E 4V EGR spacer
3. Non-EGR 4V system with an Edelbrock #8714 adapter.
- installation notes from Edelbrock catalog: recommended intake gasket:
Fel-Pro #MS96020.
Holley Street Dominator 351M-400 (P/N 300-20 or is it 301-14?)
- low rise, open plenum, single plane
- Holley/Carter standard 4 BBL and *Motorcraft* spreadbore carb bolt pattern
- advertised rpm range: idle-5500
- CARB emissions approved
Offenhauser Dual Port 400 (P/N 6033-DP)
- low rise dual port with Holley carb bolt pattern
- not CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-???
- '71 later 400
Offenhauser Dual Port 400 (6034-DP)
- low rise dual port with spread bore carb bolt pattern
- not CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-???
Offenhauser Dual Port 351M (P/N 6141-DP)
- low rise dual port with Holley carb bolt pattern
- not CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-???
- '75 and later 351M
Weiand Action Plus 351M/400 Series (P/N 8010)
- low rise (A=3.75", B=4.75") dual plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- not CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-6000
Notes:
1. The above intakes are for 2V style heads (U.S. and Aussie).
2. For 4V (or 2V) heads you can use spacers and 351C intakes. Weiand makes
spacers (P/N 8205) that mate 351C-2V intake manifolds to 351M/400 blocks.
PME makes spacers for 351C-4V heads on 351M/400 heads.
Dan, I'm in Evansville. If I do the 400 it will be for another Pantera; a total teardown. This is why the motor mount issues, brackets etc are not a big issue. I have to finish another project first. I have a 71' but it is running well and I am not making any changes in it right now. In fact, I just had the transaxil rebuilt.
Gary
#1905
Gary
#1905