500 BHP 351 Cleveland

A 4" stroke??? Isn't that just a tad extreme????

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
A 4" stroke??? Isn't that just a tad extreme????

Its the longest stroke you should stuff in a Cleveland, but not extreme. The wrist pin hole in the pistons shall slightly intersect the oil ring groove, and therefore some oil burning shall result.

cowboy from hell

Would it be like when James Bond lets go his smoke screen???

Doesn't seem like a whole lot of info to me. Shouldn't there be some brand names, specifications, and build tips?
Lots of parts around. Which ones you choose seems to be kinda important...unless you're building a 500hp grenade.
Mooso

I only intend for the post to be a teaser. I've preached the stroker crank & hydraulic roller cam formula for 500 bhp. There's lots of posts where the details were laid out. Notice TL made the 500 bhp at or below 6000 rpm.

But I'll make it as easy as I can for you, just write these folks a check for $6K:

http://www.mmeracing.com/mmeracing/FeaturedPackages.aspx

I doesn't get any easier than that.

cowboy from hell

6K seems pretty darn reasonable for what you are getting. Now I have something more to save for.

That IS good. I've read every engine post by George and Daniel and the quirks and excentricities of a hypo Cleveland build have had me worried about doing one locally.
I've read that McKeoun has a good reputation. I'd sure feel better with one of their builds than a local hot-rod guy.
I assume, at that price, that they rebuild my engine...or do you think they provide the whole thing?
Mooso

Hi George, wanted to let you know I took your advice and went with 3.85 stroke for my Clevor build. (Just don't tell anyone it won't really displace 427, bore will be 4.125). I am also about 95% on the Hilborn EFI as Jeff with the GTS says his worked out really nicely. I will keep you posted. Dave Ferrato #5972

Great hearing from you Dave, keep us posted. I'd like to do a story on your Pantera when all is finished, you up for that? I'm sure others would like to read about your motor & car.

Are you still racing that Snortin' Norton?

George

Many of the Racing pistons (like drag racing pistons) have the wrist pin going through the oil ring. you see it alot on stroker motors. On my blue car I had the Ross racing pistons, and on the road courses you would see some smoke, in fact it might look like your valve stem seals were leaking, or something like that. Not so much on acceleration, but more when down shifting for a corner, etc..

I may be an old fuddy-duddy but IMO a Pantera shouldn't have a drag racing type engine. It should have an endurance racing type engine. Not that my opinion matters any, but there it is.

Here is a picture of a piston like we were talking about. You can see the ring groove is down in to the wrist pin area.

That's what I thought Mark. I sure hope so. I never saw the pistons go in but I looked them up at http://www.cppistons.com/Catalog.htm and it could well be. There are several pistons that meet the spec and look just like that.

Here's what I have.

Scat 4.00” Stroker Crank
Crower 6.00” Steel Connecting Rods
CP Pistons – Forged Flat Top 4.030” Bore
Speed-Pro Moly Ring Set #R9343-35

But going through 1/2 quart of oil (or more) per hour on the highway sounds pretty excessive. Can that much be forced out the exhaust valve without being burned?

If it was burning I would see it. I see black smoke for a second when I put the hammer down but never blue smoke.

Yes,

the pistons of a 4" stroke crank using a 6" rod will intersect the oil ring groove as in Kevin's picture, and it will cause "some" oil burning, but David's is way excessive. The last I had heard David you were going to use non synthetic oil in an attempt to seal the rings.

Here's something to consider. Another Pantera owner recently resolved an oil burning issue that had been busting his balls. It was a brand new motor, professionally built & they could not locate the source of the oil burning. Turns out that while the builder machined the heads for adjustable valve train, they employed a tapered tap to extend the threads further down the rocker stud bosses. The tapered tap has a pointed end. That pointed end of the tap actually broke through and put pin size holes into the intake ports. Even though these bosses had studs & guide plates tightened down inside them, they still allowed oil by and into the intake ports. The final solution was pipe sealant on the rocker studs, the oil burning has been resolved.

cowboy from hell

Thanks George, have not raced recently and I am afraid the bean oil may have the Norton gummed up. (although I have been putting the final touches on a Vincent Rapide for EBAY auction) I am still jamming trying to get back in the house from the Katrina damage. We will be back in Dec 1 regardless of whether it is ready or not. That is also the excuse for the lack of car progress, as our furniture is stacked all around it in the shop and all I can do currently is write checks and collect parts. Not to say this is not also fun, just frustrating. Hoping to come back from PRI with some more stuff (efi). The car will, I believe, be worthy of some edit, mainly because the guy I got it from had done some exceptional work and collected a ton of top shelf parts prior to selling me the "project". I 'm not sure who I am going to get to build the motor. I talked to Roush recently and they have built two Clevors recently so they are up to speed on the particulars. the McKeown guys also seem like a good prospect. I have a guy here who would be absolutely precise, but without Ford experience. Originally I had planned to have James Lyle in Georgia put it together. He is a Ford guy and spent time with Ernie Elliot. Anyway, I will keep you posted. Thanks as always for your contribution to the forum. Dave Ferrato

George and Mark,

Thanks for the efforts.

In the case that Geroge refers to, with oil getting into the intake ports, the oil would burn and would be visible as blue smoke. Correct?

Mine is blowing out - or by - and is unburned. No smoking ever.

It was suggested that my motor was still new and hadn't seated yet and the synthetic was too thin during break in. Possible, since I hadn't done much mileage. But now it's got at least 2,000 miles on it.

When I used the synthetic I had tiny clean droplets of oil on the rear window glass and across the rear face of the car above the bumper. Since I changed to non-synthetic I get no dropslets, just a thick dark yellow, dry, oil film evenly across the rear, edge to edge above the bumper. And consider this, it is not evident on short trips or stop and go driving. Only during long runs (2+ hrs) on the highway.

When I put my foot down, guys behind me have said they see a puff of black. But only for a second. After 2 hrs on the highway, I have a nice thick black sooty collection on top of the bumper just above where the exhausts exit. I know I am running rich (I don't see the downside there) but don't want to confuse the two issues. The inside tips of my exhaust pipes are black and soooty but not oily or greasy.

I'm still stumped.

I am running a stroker, but only a 3.7 inch stroker. Still the wrist pin is pretty close to the oil ring. The pistons are wiesco and are the narrow low tension type. I do have some oil consumption after 15000 hard miles but expect it due to the narrow rings. I have also had some rich fuel conditions which may have contributed. No real blue smoke or oil on the back of the car. I go throug about a quart after about 3 hours on the highway but the oil consumption reduces after it gets a quart low to about a quart every 5 hours.

I do have turbos and this puts an extreme load on the engine. I believe some of my oil consumption is from the turbo inlet seals.

BTW, I am at about 600HP at 4000 rpm right now. Hope for more once my crank trigger problem is figured out.

quote:

Originally posted by deeb:
I know I am running rich (I don't see the downside there)

Just untapped power wasted

I know conventional wisdom is to put a stroker crank in to get enough flow to let the cleveland heads work for you, but I still think maybe just spinning a couple thousand r's higher to get the flow may be a better deal overall. That way you don't have to change gear ratios to get over the magic number.

David (Mr Berman),

The only way unburned oil can get into the exhaust system is via the exhaust valve guides. Those stem seals have to be in bad order.

cowboy from hell

Well, that is something very definitive to look into! Thanks.

And Mr. Pence, let me add how much I appreciate the new formality here on th EPI board.

Best regards.

How about checking that one of those intake manifold gaskets didnt slide down and shes sucking oil ??? A quart every hour ... and no blue smoke ???? HMMMMMM

Or where is the PCV connected do you have one ??? My car sucked down 2 quarts of synthetic before I knew it. I put back reg 5w - 30 and not a drop in 240 miles.

Ron

Ron

David, I had a motor that was blowing oil out the breathers. We added a windage tray and breathers with baffels and that stopped the problem. It's time for another rum before the snow starts.
Richard T.

Hi Richard and Ron. Thanks for the help. I also had K&N filters popping out of the valve covers until I got the Hall PCV - which I think I connected properly. See pic. I have a Milodon Windage Tray.

I obviously lack the experience and just don't understand how oil can be consumed without this being visible - either as a leak somewhere or as blue smoke when it's burned. I don't know if this means anything, but adding and changing oil all the time I notice on the dipstick how quickly my clean oil turns black.

I am going to have a leak down test done and see what we find. What George says seems to makes sense.

Another...

Oil that turns black quickly normally indicates excessive blow-by past the rings. However, David's problem seems to be raw oil getting into the exhaust system, not oil that has been burned in the combustion process.

Here's my thoughts about what is happening to David's motor.

First, the only way oil can get into the exhaust system downstream of the combustion chamber is via the exhaust valve guides. The Blue Thunder heads on David's motor do not have an exhaust cross-over, so a leak there is not possible. Some mechanics do not believe exhaust valve guide seals are necessary, and they asemble the motor without them. I have a suspicion this might be the case here.

At low rpm, I believe the exhaust is blowing up the guides, and getting into the rocker arm/ valve spring area of the heads, polluting the motor's oil. Then, at higher sustained rpm, the high velocity exhaust gas flowing past the exhaust valve guides is creating a venturi effect, drawing oil down the guides and into the exhaust system.

cowboy from hell

I'll go along with both those thoughts .. not sure why anyone would eliminate valve seals ..a 2 cent part .. blow by on a brand new motor .. sorry guys .. but its time to find a new engine builder. I would not be a happy camper pulling that Work Of Art apart a second time.

Ron

In addition to what everyone else has observed, I have seen oil in the exhaust from 1) headers that scavenge too well. Yup they suck the oil through the stems with or without umbrellas. The seals just reduce the amount, not eliminate it.
2) valve cover leaks running down on the header flanges. Stupid but true.

Not to be argumentative either but I don't believe in a PCV system in a real HP car. Oil syphons out of the valve covers and into the intake manifold.
All you guys with the aluminum high port C heads listen up.
In order to keep the valve springs from failing under racing conditions, they were designed for racing, they build about two inches of oil in the valve cover to submerse the spring in oil and cool them.
In a Pantera with it's low carb location a big syphon flow into the intake manifold is created.
It is possible that a big cruise (a couple of hundred miles) will suck in most of your oil.
How do I know? You don't want to know.

With an engine that runs as hot as a Pantera, and synthetic oil, you won't get any sludge build up in the car with an open breather.

Run you breathers at least two inches out of the covers too. The oil level in the covers runs very high.

When I changed those hot rod filters for the PCV system my biggest surprise was how noticeable the difference was. I may have lost a couple HP but I sure didn't notice it. What was obvious was how much better the engine was breathing. It wound up faster and ran cooler.

Since I'm always adding oil I check the PCV hoses and connections all the time. There is never any oil in the hoses or in the breathers. There are baffles which have oil on them so I know the level get up there - but there is a piece of foam just inside and it's always dry. All that's going thru the PCV system is air. It's not picking up any oil there. There's also no leaking from the intake, heads or valve covers. What I read here sounds like a correct diagnosis and it's easy enough to check. I'm going to bet it is leaking from both ends - the rings and the valve guides. I let you know soon.

PI Motorsports shipped me my 427 with the same "hot rod" open breather filters that Deeb started with. The engine has severe blow-by, and so those little filters were immediately soaked in oil and dripping on my headers. On Deeb's advice, I also installed the Hall PCV system and have been happy with it since. I have noticed no additional oil consumption.

I wrote a post a year and a half ago about the hydraulic portion of the Cleveland oil system, everyone seemed to appreciate the info. Maybe its time to do a post on the complimentary subject, which is crankcase evacuation. Its all pretty simple once you understand the concerns. But its just as important to the proper operation of the oil system as the hydraulic portion. Hint, the valve cover is the wrong place for the PCV valve.

Can't right now however because I'm working on the fall magazine. Maybe that would be a good article for the winter magazine? what do you think?

by the way Peter, congratulations, 100 posts!

cowboy from hell

Thanks for the good advice, folks.

Well I finally got results from Tommy Hodges who did the leak down test today.

All cylinders showed a consistent 8%-9%. This at 40º F California weather in an engine that hasn’t run in weeks. Warm we believe this would be down to around 3%.

A stethoscope confirmed air leaking into both the oil pan and valve covers.

Oh yeah, the plugs (almost two seasons old) were oily, but in decent shape.

So the expert opinion is that the angle of the 408 stroker, the 6" con rods, the chrome moly rings and the still limited mileage (less than 5,000 miles) contribute to a fact of life I may have to live with. And I'll keep on adding oil as I go.

The motor runs well, is extremely tame and streetable, yet kicks some serious butt. I have never lost a street race yet (Porsches, Vipers, Ferraris, NSXs, Vettes and a few carefully chosen rice rockets).

We've come to the conclusion that the guys who did a god job building a nice loose hot rod motor to give me this kind of performance (522hp / 510 ft lbs of torque) didn’t really care about adding oil after every 1/4 mile run. So be it. I'll just continue to carry oil with me.

Now all I have to do is figure out how to avoid the yellowing across the rear face above the bumper. Here are some options. I am open to comments and suggestions.

1 - use synthetic oil that yellows less and is easier to clean
2 - extend the rear exhaust pipes slightly
3 - modify the exit angle of the pipes
4 - fab an undertray to boost the airflow and oil away from the car
5 - find the stuff they use to protect new cars in transport; cut a bunch to fit the rear face; then stick it on before a long trip and rip it off when I get there
6 - drive shorter distances
7 - bring my wife and a spray bottle of degreaser whenever I travel

My engine build details and parts list along with dyno info is attached for any experts who wish to investigate further.

Try Eastwood. They have some clear, removable plastic from 3M.

quote:

find the stuff they use to protect new cars in transport; cut a bunch to fit the rear face; then stick it on before a long trip and rip it off when I get there

Clear products that spray on and then wash off.

Griot's Garage has one and

http://www.duplicolor.com/products/shield.html

A 4" stroke in a Cleveland block is not extreme. The oil ring having a spacer rail support for the oil ring should give no ill results. The 347 stroker brought this to attention because of its oil ring placement and smoking issues. We have over 100 347 strokers being used on the highways and no reports of smoking problems. All of these engine have the oil ring intercepted by the wrist pin. The oil ring in an engine is SUPPOSED to oil the cylinders. The second ring is actually the oil scraper. Most think the second ring is a compression ring. This could not be any more untrue. The shape of the secong ring will NOT allow it to hold pressure from the top of the piston. I attribute most of these smoking problems to improperly honed blocks. Oil control is achieved by a proper finish, straight cylinders, and a good relationship between the two. When we dynoed Chris Lewis's engine there was no air coming from the valve cover breathers which we ran uncovered on the dyno so he could visually see what NO blowby looks like.

On a different note pan vacuum is hard to pull when there is any blowby past the rings, even more so on a forced induction engine. We have a 9.2 deck engine with the oil ring intersecting the wrist pin that runs 40 psi of boost making 2700+ hp and pulls 15" of pan vac.

The proper stones to hone this way are expensive, they wear fast, and cannot be used until they are worn out. A hone job is more than making things look pretty.

Mark,

correct me if I misunderstand. Your position is that the wrist pin intersecting the oil ring, especially as little as it does in a 351C 4.00" stroker with 6.00" rod, is not the source of oil burning in these motors, its the cylinder prep that results in the oil consumption?

If so, is it then possible to build a 4.00" stroker, 6.00" rod, 9.2" deck motor, that didn't consume any more than a quart of oil every 5000 miles?

That would be very good news. I have been told by other engine builders that the wrist pin intersecting the oil ring was the source of oil burning, and this is what I've passed along to the members of this forum. I never understood why it would cause oil burning, it didn't make sense to me, but I accepted it as a empirically determined fact.

To get the rings to seal so there is no blow by, I'm impressed. Now I understand why your runt is as powerful as it is. I was taught as a young man that ring seal is everything in terms of the potential of a motor.

George

Gosh George, a 4" stroke and 4" bore. That would make a square engine. Isn't there something about torque and horsepower numbers getting turned around on over square vs undersquare designs?? Isn't that why desiel engines make more torque than horsepower?? Am I totaly lost dazed and confuzed???

George, All of your deductions are 100% correct. We build many 4.00 stroke Clevelands with no issues on oil consumption. Ring seal is the key to making power. Next we can work on cylinder loading theories and how to make it easier on thin cylindered engines. If there are any topics like this that maybe I can shed some light on , send me some suggestions as I'm thinking of adding a tech page to our website for good discussion topics. I have no problem answering questions like this.

To steal a quote "An educated consumer is our best customer".