Thank you gentlemen. Your agreement on this issue is encouraging. I have never owned an automobile that was of better quality than my Pantera. I have owned a lot of differant cars too. Bet everytime I close the door on my car and hear that solid sounding thunk. Everytime I see how weel the seams line up, I realize I am driving the highest quality automobile I will ever own. I realize that perhaps a Bently or Porsche would have even better quality feel, but that is fantasy. I own a Pantera, and it is a very fine automobile. But having said that, it gives me no right to act like a BMW owner. We all know what kind of reputation they have. The Pantera does not need that kind of stigma attached to it.
I view many cars built before the mid 70's collectable. Cars then and before were of a caliber never to be seen again. To see this, look at BJ auctions, and cars shows. Watching a car show over the weekend having old 57 wagons of ALL types becoming collected and valued. Many cars at the auction not particularly valuable becoming very valuable in restored condition.
Cars after the mid 70's became what I call re-peats. All with less substance. Cars of today are tools. Use them, wear them out crush them, melt them down start over. Cars of the first 75 years were as much about us as a society, our development of technology, and our movement from the horse and buggy age into the modern age. These cars were meaningful albiet a 73 Pantera or a Ford Edsil. No new cars; even cars that make you go wow have any meaning like the old cars.
Gary
Cars after the mid 70's became what I call re-peats. All with less substance. Cars of today are tools. Use them, wear them out crush them, melt them down start over. Cars of the first 75 years were as much about us as a society, our development of technology, and our movement from the horse and buggy age into the modern age. These cars were meaningful albiet a 73 Pantera or a Ford Edsil. No new cars; even cars that make you go wow have any meaning like the old cars.
Gary
Yeah Gary, houses are the same way. If you start looking at the build detail and quality of a house built turn of century, and compare the same thing on a house built last turn of cetury, you will say to yourself, "OMG, todays stuff is terrible in comparison." Yeah the old house doesn't have the fancy new stuff in it, but it was sure built well using very good materials. So there are some new cars that are technical marvels, but it is hard to find one that is built the way the old cars were. Heck, the modle A could top 100 MPH even back then.
My apology for my post if it sounded a bit tough but.
The car was listed and I was in the market for a car and was in touch with one of the owners friends and sceduled to go to look at the car, but this never happened.
I was seriuos about the car. I thank them for the slow moving pace because I found some thing that was exactly what I was looking for. So maybe my impatience paid off.
The issue I think is in my opinion.
1. The Pantera is an under valued car which deserves a higher value. Do we all agree with that? Its a good car. All 1971 , 3, 4 cars are rusted.
2. The prices in perfect shape is around 60k +/-.
3. The value of a car ? I refer to the stripped rusted one on ebay to the one I bought on ebay. Some people ask reasonable prices and others think a rusted piece is worth 10 - 20k.
4. It all depends on what the buyer is willing to spend and their budget ?
5. All Pantera owners, I think want their car to rise in price. All sellers want the most for their car. The cars left on ebay or anywhere for sale are the cars that dont sell becuase the price is to high for the condition of the car ??
I didnt mean to say anything offensive with my post on the site. If I did I present my apology.
Ron
The car was listed and I was in the market for a car and was in touch with one of the owners friends and sceduled to go to look at the car, but this never happened.
I was seriuos about the car. I thank them for the slow moving pace because I found some thing that was exactly what I was looking for. So maybe my impatience paid off.
The issue I think is in my opinion.
1. The Pantera is an under valued car which deserves a higher value. Do we all agree with that? Its a good car. All 1971 , 3, 4 cars are rusted.
2. The prices in perfect shape is around 60k +/-.
3. The value of a car ? I refer to the stripped rusted one on ebay to the one I bought on ebay. Some people ask reasonable prices and others think a rusted piece is worth 10 - 20k.
4. It all depends on what the buyer is willing to spend and their budget ?
5. All Pantera owners, I think want their car to rise in price. All sellers want the most for their car. The cars left on ebay or anywhere for sale are the cars that dont sell becuase the price is to high for the condition of the car ??
I didnt mean to say anything offensive with my post on the site. If I did I present my apology.
Ron
Yea but it's more then that. Look at the progression here:
http://www.sjvls.org/photoheritage/porterville/pva0006a.jpg
(my dad has a couple of these by the way):
http://www.sjvls.org/photoheritage/porterville/pva0004a.jpg
http://history.acusd.edu/gen/USPics/ford/modelT.jpg
http://www.carestoration.com/images/51chevy-lg.jpg
http://atecs.freeweb.hu/1971Chevy/Small/71Chevy0607.jpg
What did that say about our society, our development as a society, and everything involved. It would take books. What does a 1999 Chevy say Vs a 2005 Chevy. Not much other then cars have become tools we use and pitch. Not even remotly similar to what cars meant back then.
Gary
http://www.sjvls.org/photoheritage/porterville/pva0006a.jpg
(my dad has a couple of these by the way):
http://www.sjvls.org/photoheritage/porterville/pva0004a.jpg
http://history.acusd.edu/gen/USPics/ford/modelT.jpg
http://www.carestoration.com/images/51chevy-lg.jpg
http://atecs.freeweb.hu/1971Chevy/Small/71Chevy0607.jpg
What did that say about our society, our development as a society, and everything involved. It would take books. What does a 1999 Chevy say Vs a 2005 Chevy. Not much other then cars have become tools we use and pitch. Not even remotly similar to what cars meant back then.
Gary
Well Ron it wasn't really anything to do with the price, it was more how the guys said people were piling on and sending him nasty grams through the email. Now this guy thinks Pantera owners are pricks or physcos or whatever. Now maybe he is being a little over sensitive, but I think sometimes we do act a little brash. I know I do. But we gotta remember some folks is here for the first time, checking us out, seeing what kind of folks we are. Now you and I know each other well enough we can joke around and slam each other and we are both ok about it. But when newbies come in here they don't know us from shinola. They may even be a little scared or shy at first. We gotta be on our best behavior for newbies. Even if they are deluded as all get out about what their car is worth, we got to be polite while we tell them just how full of crap they may be. 
You see that in all the Marques. I follow the MG's a little. When a nicely restored MG goes for 8-10K the guys all chip in "A fool and his money soon parted!" etc. etc.. Always coming from guys who bought their car 30 years ago and have duck tape holding the mirror on. LOL
Yeah Gary, that brings back some fond memories. We had a 53 chebby. I remember being able to stand up in the back like it was a RV or something. Of course I wasn't nearlt as tall back in them days. 
That is one reason I am considering getting out of the Pantera game. As long as something is an enjoyable hobby, you spend for the entertainment value. Guys have always been able to change around their Panteras to whatever way they wanted them. But some day soon it will become "nope I better not, it will ruin my resale value" then the fun, at least for me, begins to fade. Because sooner or later we are going to start getting the "purists" running around saying how it doesn't have the right part number this or that. Thank God the factory records are so crappy. It will be the only thing saving us from, "Your stereo knob is the wrong color".
Now as far as value, people who know zero about Panteras seem to assume it is a multi hundred thousand dollar car. They get a look of amazement and disbelief when I tell them what they are going for. They do continue to look modern. They resemble other cars that always where much more expensive and Panteras are almost as rare as those other cars are. So anymore, I would almost perfer to sell my car to someone who knows nothing about Panteras, than to someone who does. Because they may have bought their years ago and think that it should sell for about what they paid for it years ago.
Anyway, what I am making the fuss over, is someday, either ourselves, or surviveing family members will be in the situation where they are trying to sell our Panteras. I think we should treat people selling their cars, the way we would want to be treated if we were in the same position. Now I am by no means a saint. When Ron said he had a 427 SOHC engine I was all over him like stink on manure. He musta thought I was a little unbalanced. And buying and selling stuff is a real emotionaly charged issue, especialy and ego car like what we won. Hell I admitt it. My entire sense of self worth is wrapped up in this car. I am a leo after all. Without the car I will be just another dickhead. So it is tuff even thinking about giving up my identity. And man when you see one you want, you want it real bad. So it is a volitile situation. But so is buying and selling houses. But I don't deal with that well either.
So I have decided. When I am ready, I am going to aske Dave to sell it for me.
Now as far as value, people who know zero about Panteras seem to assume it is a multi hundred thousand dollar car. They get a look of amazement and disbelief when I tell them what they are going for. They do continue to look modern. They resemble other cars that always where much more expensive and Panteras are almost as rare as those other cars are. So anymore, I would almost perfer to sell my car to someone who knows nothing about Panteras, than to someone who does. Because they may have bought their years ago and think that it should sell for about what they paid for it years ago.
Anyway, what I am making the fuss over, is someday, either ourselves, or surviveing family members will be in the situation where they are trying to sell our Panteras. I think we should treat people selling their cars, the way we would want to be treated if we were in the same position. Now I am by no means a saint. When Ron said he had a 427 SOHC engine I was all over him like stink on manure. He musta thought I was a little unbalanced. And buying and selling stuff is a real emotionaly charged issue, especialy and ego car like what we won. Hell I admitt it. My entire sense of self worth is wrapped up in this car. I am a leo after all. Without the car I will be just another dickhead. So it is tuff even thinking about giving up my identity. And man when you see one you want, you want it real bad. So it is a volitile situation. But so is buying and selling houses. But I don't deal with that well either.
So I have decided. When I am ready, I am going to aske Dave to sell it for me.
Hello Gentlemen, I am a newbie and i have read almost everything about panteras all the pro's and con's. my friend has a 1972 pantera and it is nice. I love cars and most of the cars i owned have been germans(porsche). now i am interest in buying a pantera, but I agree with you guys a car is worth what a buyer is willing to pay and what the seller is willing to accept. but one issue that bothers me is why should I be willing to pay between 30 to 40K in a car that might need an extra 30k to have it up to date? don't get me wrong i've seen panteras that have all the updates and are in extremely nice condition for $69,000 with less than 40000 miles and still it is a little high when i can go get a brand new corvett z06 for $70,000. just my opinion, i hope i dont offend anyone.
http://www.sjvls.org/photoheritage/porterville/pva0006a.jpg
Is that you, Gary?
Jeff (Just Kiddin!)
6559
Is that you, Gary?
Jeff (Just Kiddin!)
6559
quote:Originally posted by SPEED:
i hope i dont offend anyone.
Not a chance!
I don't think a $40K Pantera is going to need anything if much at all. A $60-70K Pantera is usually "Over the top" in one way or another. Yes the Vettes are very good cars but no one even bats an eye at them. They are just so comon. A Pantera just has serious PIZZAZ!
Gary
Hey Jeff, no but this is Dad breaking an all time hill climb record:
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars/hill.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars/hill.jpg
In spite of the fact that there is new interest in Pantera's, I really don't think we anywhere near the point where people will be afraid to mod their cars because it will affect the value. Most of us that are active owners really delight in that aspect. And I'd gues most of the new owners do as well.
On another point, it seems to me that the regulars on the PIBB are the only ones who do any posting. Occasionally, someone new will chime in, but for the most part, it's just us. (You know who you are.) I agree with DT that we s/b mindful of that as post.
Jeff (hot rodder at heart)
On another point, it seems to me that the regulars on the PIBB are the only ones who do any posting. Occasionally, someone new will chime in, but for the most part, it's just us. (You know who you are.) I agree with DT that we s/b mindful of that as post.
Jeff (hot rodder at heart)
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I totally agree with you when it comes to $40k a Pantera that might need some little work or much at all. and yes $60-70 are over the top i guess getting 500+HP. but i am having a hard time finding a pantera that is aound $40k that does it "is going to neeed anything is much at all" most of those cars need full restoration or a new suspension. and i gree vetts ae very common that is why i would like a pantera.
quote:Originally posted by SPEED:
Hello Gentlemen, I am a newbie and i have read almost everything about panteras all the pro's and con's. my friend has a 1972 pantera and it is nice. I love cars and most of the cars i owned have been germans(porsche). now i am interest in buying a pantera, but I agree with you guys a car is worth what a buyer is willing to pay and what the seller is willing to accept. but one issue that bothers me is why should I be willing to pay between 30 to 40K in a car that might need an extra 30k to have it up to date? don't get me wrong i've seen panteras that have all the updates and are in extremely nice condition for $69,000 with less than 40000 miles and still it is a little high when i can go get a brand new corvett z06 for $70,000. just my opinion, i hope i dont offend anyone.
Hey speed, welcome to the forum. I don't think you are going to upset any of the old timers with what you said. It be cool. BTW, have you actualy tried to order a new Z06? I am just kind of curious, because I know when the Ford GT came out you were supposed to be able to get them for 140K, but no one did. Damn dealers jacked up the asking price to over 200K.
I agree, the Pantera is not for everyone. It was a dream car back in the day though. I have always wanted a powerfull mid engine exotic. Corvettes have the engine in the wrong place for me. Yeah you can almost get a Porsche 911 for that price and they are some nice cars, no doubt. If you want a mid engine Vette, you can kinda get one of those too. They are called a Mosler MT900 and they will start selling them here pretty soon. But you are going to part with two hundred grand again. You can get a viper, but then again the engine is in the wrong place. The Saleen is a way cool car. But they start at over 400K and go up from there. And of course you have lambos and ferraris and such, but that is rich man territory, even if you can swing the entry fee, they will break you to keep them going.
I think why the Pantera is worth it is that they were the Ford GT of the seventies. If you want to buy a car you don't have to work on every now and then, probably best to stay away from the Pantera, even if it has been redone. But I would say the same thing if you were hankering for a Shelby Cobra. Old cars are old cars no matter how much you do to them. So yeah you can put brand new brakes, and seats and this and taht, but somewhere on the car, there are still some thirty year old something or other lurking around. Even if it is just a screw or bolt. So the Pantera is a unique car in a way. Exotic Italian body, American muscle car engine, and a German transmission. It is kind of like a blend of the best of the world at the time. And it is subjective. Definetly not for everybody.
Jeff did you do those flames yourself or are they a decal?
Speed, we will find you a car if that is what you are looking for. Hang in there buddy, and don't be scared off by the foul mouth baddasses that hang out here.
Speed, we will find you a car if that is what you are looking for. Hang in there buddy, and don't be scared off by the foul mouth baddasses that hang out here.
Thank you DeTom, i agree with you a Pantera is not for everyone and no i have not order a vette yet, but i am still debating. i know a pantera is an old car and may need work once in a while and i do not mind that. but it seems that all of the sudden panteras have gone throught the roof when it comes to price. 4$40k gets you just a ok pantera that still needs restoration well that is at least in couthern california
Speed-
The new Corvette is a fantastic car. No doubt about that. But think about this.., in a few years when the new car smell is gone, and the new-er Corvettes are being marketed, you'll tire of it quickly. Worse yet, that "new" car will have depreciated to about half what you originally paid for it.
But here's the worse part!..everytime you see a Badd-Ass Pantera creating a storm on the boulevard, you'll kick yourself for not buying a Pantera (TODAY) when prices are still reasonable.
Kevin
p.s. here's another tidbit from this humble Pantera owner. Original cars that are concours correct and are not modified = money pit. Buy the best car in whatever flavor (original look, widebody flared, etc. etc.) that you can afford. You'll save loads of $$$ in the long run. Don't ask me how I know this...
The new Corvette is a fantastic car. No doubt about that. But think about this.., in a few years when the new car smell is gone, and the new-er Corvettes are being marketed, you'll tire of it quickly. Worse yet, that "new" car will have depreciated to about half what you originally paid for it.
But here's the worse part!..everytime you see a Badd-Ass Pantera creating a storm on the boulevard, you'll kick yourself for not buying a Pantera (TODAY) when prices are still reasonable.
Kevin
p.s. here's another tidbit from this humble Pantera owner. Original cars that are concours correct and are not modified = money pit. Buy the best car in whatever flavor (original look, widebody flared, etc. etc.) that you can afford. You'll save loads of $$$ in the long run. Don't ask me how I know this...
Yeah we have been talking about that a lot lately. No one can say for sure why it is happening and there is endless speculation, but it is happening. I know recently there was a Pantera that had gone for 30K range on Barret Jackson a couple years ago, and then the guy sold it just now on ebay for over 40k without having done a thing with it. Who knows?? Maybe it is inflation or whatever. But I do know if you are real patient, you can get what you want, but you have to work really hard at it. There are guys here that have been looking for what they want for over a year. But deals do come up, and us Pantera guys are getting pretty old. Maybe you can get a really sweet deal at an estate sale.
In the meantime, the very best advice I can give you is to learn more about the cars. There is a really good site called the Panteraplace that tells you what to look for in a car. There is a newsletter that goes out every morning called detomaso info page at real big dot com, or something like that. I read that every morning. I have learned more about the cars in the last year than in the previous decade in which I have owned my car. That way while you are looking, you can get more of a feel if you would really be comfortable with the car. Also give your local Chevy dealer a call and tell him you want to buy a brand spanking new Z06. I think I read where their orders are backed up because of a wheel supplier problem. I am betting the dealers are trying to get 100K for them. But from what I have read, they are worth every penny. They are truly supercar quality now.
In the meantime, the very best advice I can give you is to learn more about the cars. There is a really good site called the Panteraplace that tells you what to look for in a car. There is a newsletter that goes out every morning called detomaso info page at real big dot com, or something like that. I read that every morning. I have learned more about the cars in the last year than in the previous decade in which I have owned my car. That way while you are looking, you can get more of a feel if you would really be comfortable with the car. Also give your local Chevy dealer a call and tell him you want to buy a brand spanking new Z06. I think I read where their orders are backed up because of a wheel supplier problem. I am betting the dealers are trying to get 100K for them. But from what I have read, they are worth every penny. They are truly supercar quality now.