George,
I would be honoured to hear you opinion, comments and advice on building a short block. The criteria being a street/performance engine. What about a stroker/forged crank etc.?
Why hydraulic roller lifters?
What is you recommendation for alluminum heads for a street performance motor? or is it better to stick with a built up stock (iron) 4V Closed Chamber heads. I would rather stick with my engine under the engine cover so, a dual plane manifold with Holley carb is what I would lean to. What do you recommend here?
Finally, is there a "trouble free" EFI system that fits under the engine cover you would recommend.
I have been following this discussion item ... but since you opened the door for short block discussion, I decided to enter.
Thanks
B. Goyaniuk
Intake manifold, Dave at AFD reqemended the single plane. He say's that the bottom end torque lost via the single plane intake will be more than made up by the added cubes.
Shortblock. Planed build, stroker kit .030 bore.
Oil modes (builder restricks oil to the main cam bearings by drilling new oil holes in bearings and installing with these lined up). Along with the normal block clean and prep.
Kevin
Shortblock. Planed build, stroker kit .030 bore.
Oil modes (builder restricks oil to the main cam bearings by drilling new oil holes in bearings and installing with these lined up). Along with the normal block clean and prep.
Kevin
Kevin,
An Aluminum flywheel is totally different than what your probably used too.
Whereas the cast iron flywheel produces that grunt torq, squat and go feeling.....
The aluminum one is lighter feeling. Doesn't have that hard grunt and go feeling.
It rev's up much faster, is smoother getting to speed and you don't lose as many RPM's when being on it and shifting from gear to gear.
With my old iron flywheel, running the tach to 6 grand and going into the next gear while staying on it, my RPM's would drop from 6 to just under 4. With the alum one, it will drop to about 4200 and then rev back up to 6 in a heart beat.
Without the grunt and go feeling, you think your not going as fast, but as I'm getting used to the feeling of it, I'm realizing that I am actually going just as fast but getting there quicker.
I would say it changes the performance from being a 1/4 mile type car to being a road racing track car. And if I want, I can still break the 335's loose without much of a problem off the line. Which I rarely ever do.
Takes a little more gas to get rolling, but no big deal.
Next time I'm into it, I will however replace the clutch disc with the double sided carbon fiber one.
Hope that helps brother......
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KevinG:
Dennis Q. has also sugested the get rid of the cast flywheel, he has an alum flywheel.
An Aluminum flywheel is totally different than what your probably used too.
Whereas the cast iron flywheel produces that grunt torq, squat and go feeling.....
The aluminum one is lighter feeling. Doesn't have that hard grunt and go feeling.
It rev's up much faster, is smoother getting to speed and you don't lose as many RPM's when being on it and shifting from gear to gear.
With my old iron flywheel, running the tach to 6 grand and going into the next gear while staying on it, my RPM's would drop from 6 to just under 4. With the alum one, it will drop to about 4200 and then rev back up to 6 in a heart beat.
Without the grunt and go feeling, you think your not going as fast, but as I'm getting used to the feeling of it, I'm realizing that I am actually going just as fast but getting there quicker.
I would say it changes the performance from being a 1/4 mile type car to being a road racing track car. And if I want, I can still break the 335's loose without much of a problem off the line. Which I rarely ever do.
Takes a little more gas to get rolling, but no big deal.
Next time I'm into it, I will however replace the clutch disc with the double sided carbon fiber one.
Hope that helps brother......
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KevinG:
Dennis Q. has also sugested the get rid of the cast flywheel, he has an alum flywheel.
Also Coz, an aluminum flywheel makes it sound more like a race car when you goose the throttle. Instant revs always sound cool. 
Kevin,
My only advice at this point is to use an engine builder that knows the Cleveland. A guy who does Chevys will make a mess of a Cleveland job. And don't use a "rebuilder" which is a guy who normally just does rebuilds of oem motors. In the mind of a rebuilder, all the things a hot rodder does to make an engine stay alive while producing 60% more power is silliness.
My apprehension would be, if the builder you've selected knew Clevelands, why couldn't he have advised you regarding cyliner heads.
Restricting oil to the cam bearings is just one of several considerations in building a Cleveland.
If you don't zero deck the block, you're giving up at least 20 bhp. If you don't do a half fill with hard block, at the right time in the block prep process, you'll give up at least another 20 bhp. At 500 bhp, you are entering the area with a Cleveland block where you "need" to use hard block due to the increasing likelihood of cylinder wall failure. At 500 bhp you also need to install a main cap girdle (not the same as a rocker stud girdle).
Good Luck, George
My only advice at this point is to use an engine builder that knows the Cleveland. A guy who does Chevys will make a mess of a Cleveland job. And don't use a "rebuilder" which is a guy who normally just does rebuilds of oem motors. In the mind of a rebuilder, all the things a hot rodder does to make an engine stay alive while producing 60% more power is silliness.
My apprehension would be, if the builder you've selected knew Clevelands, why couldn't he have advised you regarding cyliner heads.
Restricting oil to the cam bearings is just one of several considerations in building a Cleveland.
If you don't zero deck the block, you're giving up at least 20 bhp. If you don't do a half fill with hard block, at the right time in the block prep process, you'll give up at least another 20 bhp. At 500 bhp, you are entering the area with a Cleveland block where you "need" to use hard block due to the increasing likelihood of cylinder wall failure. At 500 bhp you also need to install a main cap girdle (not the same as a rocker stud girdle).
Good Luck, George
George, how can you in all good conciousness advice someone to use a 351 Weakblock, when we both know full well that Ford ran out of money before they got done designing it and wound up with a weenie dog for a bottom end. If someone wants serious Ford power they must use the 427 side oiler FE block as a starting point. You can get brand new alloy casting blocks and stroker kits up to and exceeding five hundred cubes. If they are putting serious money into a hot rod engine, they will be much better served buying a stable starting point like this.
http://www.genesis427.com/
http://www.genesis427.com/
Looks enticing. But will it fit?
Coz,
Great feedback regarding the aluminum flywheel, very descriptive!
DeTom,
Great link. Every time I see an aluminum block, I get a warm, fuzzy feeling inside!
Michael
Great feedback regarding the aluminum flywheel, very descriptive!
DeTom,
Great link. Every time I see an aluminum block, I get a warm, fuzzy feeling inside!
Michael
quote:Originally posted by Kevin Perry:
Looks enticing. But will it fit?
Of course it will Kevin. A lot easier than a true big block does. Most people don't realize the FE isn't really a big block. It started life as a 352 Cubic inch motor. It is only one inch taller than the 351 Weakland. And in all aluminum trim like that, probably weighs a couple of hundred pounds less than the boat anchor we have as an engine. And it is way, way stronger.
quote:Originally posted by Cyboman:
DeTom,
Great link. Every time I see an aluminum block, I get a warm, fuzzy feeling inside!
Michael
Yep, George has convinced me that the 351 Weakland is just too flimsy to make any serious HP with. Think about it. Guys are on here all the time talking about how they just put a new motor in and it pukes all over them. Not so with the good old side oiler. Designed from day one to take the abuse. Now the link I gave is probably the cheapest you can buy. Carrol Shelby has been making all aluminum 427 FEs for several decades now. But they tend to be a might on the pricey side.
Sure, install a mega bhp motor in your Pantera.
Ought to keep Lloyd B smiling as you buy parts to keep your ZF together.
And who ever sells you half shafts & axles will probably just pre-print a couple hundred address lables for you too.
Speed cost money, how fast do yo want to go?
What do you plan to do with your mega buck all alloy FE dinosaur motor, cruise to 'Vegas?
Bet I get to 'Vegas just as fast with my stock '74 motor.
But I"LL have more money in my pocket to spend once we get there.
George
Ought to keep Lloyd B smiling as you buy parts to keep your ZF together.
And who ever sells you half shafts & axles will probably just pre-print a couple hundred address lables for you too.
Speed cost money, how fast do yo want to go?
What do you plan to do with your mega buck all alloy FE dinosaur motor, cruise to 'Vegas?
Bet I get to 'Vegas just as fast with my stock '74 motor.
But I"LL have more money in my pocket to spend once we get there.
George
quote:Originally posted by george pence:
Sure, install a mega bhp motor in your Pantera.
Ought to keep Lloyd B smiling as you buy parts to keep your ZF together.
And who ever sells you half shafts & axles will probably just pre-print a couple hundred address lables for you too.
Speed cost money, how fast do yo want to go?
What do you plan to do with your mega buck all alloy FE dinosaur motor, cruise to 'Vegas?
Bet I get to 'Vegas just as fast with my stock '74 motor.
But I"LL have more money in my pocket to spend once we get there.
George
Surely you are not refearing to moi?? The guy who put the low compresion boat anchor in his car because he was tired of mixing in octane boost?? I am not the one recommending 500 horsepower cams and such. BUT if someone is so inclined as to spend big money doing so, they should protect that investment by starting with something solid. Yeah I bet an FE built to 500 horse will way outlast your Cleveland built to 500 horse. Years from now they will be changing the oil while you change out your whole motor. You are right, speed is expensive, but skimping to get there is even more expensive. It is like the old commercial. You can pay me now, or pay me later.
I've seen connecting rods poking out the side of an iron FE block before! They aren't indestructible.
Its apples & oranges to compare that alloy FE to an iron Cleveland. Compare an iron FE to the iron Cleveland, or compare an aftermarket alloy FE to an aftermarket alloy Cleveland or Clevor.
Why would the alloy FE engine cost any less, or be any stronger than an all alloy Cleveland or Clevor?
You build an alloy FE for a certain dollar amount, I'll build an alloy Cleveland for the same amount, and I'll race you for pinks, DEAL?
George
Its apples & oranges to compare that alloy FE to an iron Cleveland. Compare an iron FE to the iron Cleveland, or compare an aftermarket alloy FE to an aftermarket alloy Cleveland or Clevor.
Why would the alloy FE engine cost any less, or be any stronger than an all alloy Cleveland or Clevor?
You build an alloy FE for a certain dollar amount, I'll build an alloy Cleveland for the same amount, and I'll race you for pinks, DEAL?
George
quote:Originally posted by george pence:
I've seen connecting rods poking out the side of an iron FE block before! They aren't indestructible.
Its apples & oranges to compare that alloy FE to an iron Cleveland. Compare an iron FE to the iron Cleveland, or compare an aftermarket alloy FE to an aftermarket alloy Cleveland or Clevor.
Why would the alloy FE engine cost any less, or be any stronger than an all alloy Cleveland or Clevor?
You build an alloy FE for a certain dollar amount, I'll build an alloy Cleveland for the same amount, and I'll race you for pinks, DEAL?
George
Because of the inherant weakness of the Cleveland casting. You are the one who told me about it. They fall apart right in the middle just above the bearing journals. And was the FE you saw with the rod though it a side oiler?? That would ruin my day and turn me off to Fords completely. My block failed right where you said it would. Most of my parts were laying in the oil pan. You were right. The Cleveland block is junk. Now if you tell me the sideoiler is junk too, I will never own another Ford.
You bring to mind one good point though, DeTom.
A fellow decides to build a powerful motor on the Cleveland foundation. Todays stroker cranks, alloy heads & roller cams make building lots of bhp realtively simple. Then this fellow hires the local engine mechanic to build the motor, a mechanic who agrees to build it for $1200 plus parts. We hear from this fellow a year later, his motor ventillated itself and ruined at least $5K worth of parts, he's mad at the mechanic, he's mad at the Cleveland motor, he's mad at the fellow on the internet who gave him advice regarding what parts to buy. He's even mad at the Holiday Inn.
But he's not mad at himself for hiring the wrong mechanic, or for shopping price when he selected a mechanic when he should have been shopping for experience instead.
your tell it like it is friend on the PIBB, George
A fellow decides to build a powerful motor on the Cleveland foundation. Todays stroker cranks, alloy heads & roller cams make building lots of bhp realtively simple. Then this fellow hires the local engine mechanic to build the motor, a mechanic who agrees to build it for $1200 plus parts. We hear from this fellow a year later, his motor ventillated itself and ruined at least $5K worth of parts, he's mad at the mechanic, he's mad at the Cleveland motor, he's mad at the fellow on the internet who gave him advice regarding what parts to buy. He's even mad at the Holiday Inn.
But he's not mad at himself for hiring the wrong mechanic, or for shopping price when he selected a mechanic when he should have been shopping for experience instead.
your tell it like it is friend on the PIBB, George
You are right again George. BTW, that race wouldn't be fair anyway. You know full well I couldn't get an engine to run let alone outrun anything you built. So you would have to give me a slighht handi-cap. Oh say, a budget ten times of yours and I get to use Yates racing to build for me. 
I'm not in the mood for this Cleveland bashing today, NOT ONE MOTOR I built ever broke. Including about a half dozen Clevelands (not counting the C's in my own cars). Because I built them to survive the intended usage. Some people rolled their eyes and accused me of overbuilding engines. But my clients cars would motor on by while my detractors were broken on the side of the road.
George
George
Another good point you made George is the ZF or 1/2 shafts are not going to handle the mega HP. They become the weak links, specially the ZF.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by george pence:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by george pence:
Thanks Mike.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cyboman:
Coz,
Great feedback regarding the aluminum flywheel, very descriptive!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cyboman:
Coz,
Great feedback regarding the aluminum flywheel, very descriptive!
quote:Originally posted by george pence:
I'm not in the mood for this Cleveland bashing today, NOT ONE MOTOR I built ever broke. Including about a half dozen Clevelands (not counting the C's in my own cars). Because I built them to survive the intended usage. Some people rolled their eyes and accused me of overbuilding engines. But my clients cars would motor on by while my detractors were broken on the side of the road.
George
Yeah but that's because you probably never put the wrong wires on the wrong plugs like I did. Try that sometime and see how long your engine lasts. Go ahead, I dare ya. :P
quote:Originally posted by george pence:
I'm not in the mood for this Cleveland bashing today, NOT ONE MOTOR I built ever broke. Including about a half dozen Clevelands (not counting the C's in my own cars). Because I built them to survive the intended usage. Some people rolled their eyes and accused me of overbuilding engines. But my clients cars would motor on by while my detractors were broken on the side of the road.
George
Yea, If people don't like Pantera's I am not sure why they are here. They may as well go buy a 6cyl Delorian econobox. Those engines last right? Oh yea, they don't produce any power.
Gary
Oh come on Gary, if I can't tease old George what fun will I have??? I gotta be able to tease someone. It is all part of my meaness. It is like the old song says, "I gotta be mean!"
Does that mean you don't want to trade it for a Delorean?
You know Jonesborough isn't that far away.
Gary
You know Jonesborough isn't that far away.
Gary
Gary, DeTom, it's OK.
It's me, not DeTom. I've been sick, I'm taking anti-biotics that sap all my energy, headache, so on and so forth. Blah, blah, blah. Getting old. LOL!
I've had a couple of frustrations related to the internet today. Unkind & unthankful people. But that's what you expose yourself to when you hang out on the internet. Its easy enough to just "log off", but then the people I intend to help are the ones who lose out, not the very very few who grate on the nerves. Got to let it roll of my back & keep moving ahead, all systems go.
All said, I think I've thrown it back at DeTom pretty good today, huh?
Your friendships are appreciated.
George
It's me, not DeTom. I've been sick, I'm taking anti-biotics that sap all my energy, headache, so on and so forth. Blah, blah, blah. Getting old. LOL!
I've had a couple of frustrations related to the internet today. Unkind & unthankful people. But that's what you expose yourself to when you hang out on the internet. Its easy enough to just "log off", but then the people I intend to help are the ones who lose out, not the very very few who grate on the nerves. Got to let it roll of my back & keep moving ahead, all systems go.
All said, I think I've thrown it back at DeTom pretty good today, huh?
Your friendships are appreciated.
George
Kevin funny thing I'm building the same motor 393 using parts from SCAT. I ahve been doing a lot of research and found that the intake I want to use is a weber manifold which comes in the traditonal 4v configuration, ( so they say, I will confirm this when I get the manifold) but from what I gather even the CHI 4V heads the ports are smaller and dont match. So there is a lot of work to do to get all this to match up. I'm leaning towards using my 4V cast iron open chamber heads. open chambers require flat top pistons which both flow better then closed chamber heads. So I'm still in the process and if you wish to compare notes email me ronmarl@optonline.net
Ron
Ron
quote:Originally posted by comp2:
Yea, If people don't like Pantera's I am not sure why they are here. They may as well go buy a 6cyl Delorian econobox. Those engines last right? Oh yea, they don't produce any power.
Gary
comp2,
It's not the Pantera that Detom doesn't like..it's the 351C. I can understand his frustration..considering he recently went through an expensive rebuild.
Kevin
Thank Kevin. It wasn't so much the cost of the rebuild, but I have invested in some pretty expensive parts, forged crank, vanadium I-beam rods, four bolt mains, hypenetic pistons, in a block of somewhat questionable integrity, thinking it would solve the weakness problem. Then I find out it is the block itself that is inherrantly weak and not the components I bought to "fix" the problem. Yeah if I had known I would have maybe got a Dart block and made a cleavor or whatever. But I have a buddy who has a source for the side oilers. THey are expensive, and I have always wanted one. But I could have had one for about the same money as a Dart Cleavor.
Oh well, live and learn. Besides my hot rodding days are over. I am getting too old.
Oh well, live and learn. Besides my hot rodding days are over. I am getting too old.
quote:Originally posted by comp2:
Does that mean you don't want to trade it for a Delorean?
You know Jonesborough isn't that far away.
Gary
Not me. My sone does though. He loved that movie, back to the future and he would trade my car straight up in a heartbeat.
quote:Originally posted by george pence:
Gary, DeTom, it's OK.
It's me, not DeTom. I've been sick, I'm taking anti-biotics that sap all my energy, headache, so on and so forth. Blah, blah, blah. Getting old. LOL!
I've had a couple of frustrations related to the internet today. Unkind & unthankful people. But that's what you expose yourself to when you hang out on the internet. Its easy enough to just "log off", but then the people I intend to help are the ones who lose out, not the very very few who grate on the nerves. Got to let it roll of my back & keep moving ahead, all systems go.
All said, I think I've thrown it back at DeTom pretty good today, huh?
Your friendships are appreciated.
George
Oh man. I am sorry George. I had no idea you were feeling poorly. I apologise for yanking your chain. I was teasing a sick person. What's wrong with me??
quote:Originally posted by DeTom:quote:Originally posted by comp2:
Does that mean you don't want to trade it for a Delorean?
You know Jonesborough isn't that far away.
Gary
Not me. My sone does though. He loved that movie, back to the future and he would trade my car straight up in a heartbeat.
Well you kknow those Delorean 150hp V6 really last!
Gary
Yeah, but that is one case where you hope it blows up so you can put something nice in it's place.
George,
I do thank you for you help, as I said before it gets confusing.
I do have a local Clevland guy that races them. But he is OLD SCHOOL and loves the old steel heads.
I take it that you build 351c either for a living or for others?
On the block fill, is this needed for a high 400 hp motor. Is this basicly a fill of the lower section of the water jackets?
Will this affect the cooling?
Where can I get a main stud gurdle for a clevland?
I have thought about building a clevor but I do have the dist and oil pan for a C. Plus I would need a/c bracket. I have talked myself out of it though.
Thanks again all, Kevin
I do thank you for you help, as I said before it gets confusing.
I do have a local Clevland guy that races them. But he is OLD SCHOOL and loves the old steel heads.
I take it that you build 351c either for a living or for others?
On the block fill, is this needed for a high 400 hp motor. Is this basicly a fill of the lower section of the water jackets?
Will this affect the cooling?
Where can I get a main stud gurdle for a clevland?
I have thought about building a clevor but I do have the dist and oil pan for a C. Plus I would need a/c bracket. I have talked myself out of it though.
Thanks again all, Kevin
Good morning all, I'd like to address some things Ron mentioned back on page 13.
Ron, regarding weber mainfolds, there are 2 Australian manifolds with 2V size ports, the Cain (no longer in production) and the Redline. Outside of those 2 manifolds, to my best knowledge, all the other 351C Weber manifolds have 4V size ports. The Hall Pantera manifold seems to be the most readily available manifold. They change hands a lot.
Regarding the CHI 4V head, John of CHI shared some photos of the head with me earlier this year, the ports of the head in the photos were unmistakably 4V size ports.
Regarding open chamber heads, there is a lot of opinion on the subject of open combustion chambers verses closed combustion chambers. Here's the facts: All Cleveland racing heads and aftermarket heads feature closed combustion chambers. The designers of these heads obviously believe the closed combustion chamber design is superior. An open combustion chamber is a “hemispherical” pocket in the cylinder head containing the valves and spark plug that is the same diameter as the cylinder bore. Closed combustion chambers feature a smaller combustion chamber containing the valves and spark plug that is surrounded by flat cylinder head surfaces creating an area referred to as the “squish area”. Ford’s purpose in equipping some motors with closed chamber heads was to raise the compression ratio of the motor. The smaller volume of the closed chamber heads does just that. However in order for the squish area to aid in producing additional horsepower, the clearance between piston dome and the cylinder head at top dead center must be 0.045” +/- 0.010” on a street motor. It is common for racing engines to set this clearance even smaller. As delivered by Ford, this clearance is approximately 0.070”. This clearance is too large to realize the benefits of “squish”. Squish aids the engine during the compression and exhaust cycles. As the piston stroke reaches top dead center during the compression cycle the squish area squeezes the air and fuel into the more compact combustion chamber so as to be more easily ignited by the spark plug while also increasing the turbulent motion of the air and fuel so that upon ignition the air and fuel burn more completely and energy extracted from the fuel air mixture is maximized. During the exhaust cycle, the squish area and smaller combustion chamber improves exhaust gas scavenging by forcing the exhaust gases nearer the open exhaust valve as the piston stroke reaches top dead center. A closed combustion chamber head used with a zero decked block is good for at least 20 ft/lbs of torque on a street engine. With a 0.070” gap between the piston and cylinder head at top dead center, the fuel/air/exhaust gases are not completely squeezed into the combustion chamber, the fuel and air left behind during the compression cycle are actually shielded from the flame front during ignition and remain partially unburned, which reduces the energy extracted from the fuel air mixture and increases hydrocarbon emissions. In a similar manner, the exhaust gases left behind in the squish area during the exhaust cycle are shielded from the exhaust valve and exhaust scavenging is reduced. Exhaust gases left behind in the cylinder reduce the cylinder area available for fresh fuel & air that are drawn into the cylinder during the intake cycle. So unless a short block is “decked” to reduce the clearance between the cylinder head and piston dome, a closed chamber head’s only value is that of increasing the motors compression ratio, it could be argued that an open chamber head can extract more power under this situation (i.e. if a block is not zero decked), as long as the motor’s compression ratio is adequate for the fuel and camshaft being used.
your friend on the PIBB, George
Ron, regarding weber mainfolds, there are 2 Australian manifolds with 2V size ports, the Cain (no longer in production) and the Redline. Outside of those 2 manifolds, to my best knowledge, all the other 351C Weber manifolds have 4V size ports. The Hall Pantera manifold seems to be the most readily available manifold. They change hands a lot.
Regarding the CHI 4V head, John of CHI shared some photos of the head with me earlier this year, the ports of the head in the photos were unmistakably 4V size ports.
Regarding open chamber heads, there is a lot of opinion on the subject of open combustion chambers verses closed combustion chambers. Here's the facts: All Cleveland racing heads and aftermarket heads feature closed combustion chambers. The designers of these heads obviously believe the closed combustion chamber design is superior. An open combustion chamber is a “hemispherical” pocket in the cylinder head containing the valves and spark plug that is the same diameter as the cylinder bore. Closed combustion chambers feature a smaller combustion chamber containing the valves and spark plug that is surrounded by flat cylinder head surfaces creating an area referred to as the “squish area”. Ford’s purpose in equipping some motors with closed chamber heads was to raise the compression ratio of the motor. The smaller volume of the closed chamber heads does just that. However in order for the squish area to aid in producing additional horsepower, the clearance between piston dome and the cylinder head at top dead center must be 0.045” +/- 0.010” on a street motor. It is common for racing engines to set this clearance even smaller. As delivered by Ford, this clearance is approximately 0.070”. This clearance is too large to realize the benefits of “squish”. Squish aids the engine during the compression and exhaust cycles. As the piston stroke reaches top dead center during the compression cycle the squish area squeezes the air and fuel into the more compact combustion chamber so as to be more easily ignited by the spark plug while also increasing the turbulent motion of the air and fuel so that upon ignition the air and fuel burn more completely and energy extracted from the fuel air mixture is maximized. During the exhaust cycle, the squish area and smaller combustion chamber improves exhaust gas scavenging by forcing the exhaust gases nearer the open exhaust valve as the piston stroke reaches top dead center. A closed combustion chamber head used with a zero decked block is good for at least 20 ft/lbs of torque on a street engine. With a 0.070” gap between the piston and cylinder head at top dead center, the fuel/air/exhaust gases are not completely squeezed into the combustion chamber, the fuel and air left behind during the compression cycle are actually shielded from the flame front during ignition and remain partially unburned, which reduces the energy extracted from the fuel air mixture and increases hydrocarbon emissions. In a similar manner, the exhaust gases left behind in the squish area during the exhaust cycle are shielded from the exhaust valve and exhaust scavenging is reduced. Exhaust gases left behind in the cylinder reduce the cylinder area available for fresh fuel & air that are drawn into the cylinder during the intake cycle. So unless a short block is “decked” to reduce the clearance between the cylinder head and piston dome, a closed chamber head’s only value is that of increasing the motors compression ratio, it could be argued that an open chamber head can extract more power under this situation (i.e. if a block is not zero decked), as long as the motor’s compression ratio is adequate for the fuel and camshaft being used.
your friend on the PIBB, George
quote:Originally posted by DeTom:
Yeah, but that is one case where you hope it blows up so you can put something nice in it's place.
Ha, it's still a Delorean! LOL,
Gary
True Gary, even with a 900 Gigawatt flux capacitor and a Mr. Fussion power supply, it is still just a DeLorean.
Kevin,
You and I must have been typing at the same time this AM. Sorry I missed your post earlier this AM.
You are welcome, I'm glad you've found the advice you're getting helpful. This topic has had a lot of views, we've apparently got everybody's attention! lol.....
Your old school mechanic likes the iron heads because he "knows" them, he knows how to set them up & make power with them. He feels he'd have to start a whole new learning curve with the alloy head. In reality that isn't true, he can just bolt them on, no porting necessary to make over 400 bhp like you must with the iron heads. But some folks don't handle change well, and there's nobody more cantankerous & opinionated than an old mechanic, I know. If he knows Clevelands then you keep him. Again, it seems you've made good choices.
Yes I've done a little automotive & motorcycle work for others, built a few engines. I have the aptitude, got started real young. I've dealt with people about modifying their cars & engines. If you & I had been talking in person rather than on the internet, I would have really grilled you about budget & how you intend to use the car. Its very important that a mechanic & customer see eye to eye before any work begins.
With a stroker crank, roller cam & alloy heads, I think you are underestimating the torque/bhp you'll be making with your combo. You should be able to hit the 500 ft/lbs range. At 500 ft/lbs I strongly recommend you do a half fill with hard block. Do as much of the manual block prep as you can before hot tanking. Then hot tank the block, afterwards do the half fill with hard block (up to the bottom of the water pump passages). Let that cure for at least 30 days, then finish the machining work (align boring, decking, boring & honing). Your mechanic should know to do the boring & honing with the caps torqued in place and boring plates torqued to the decks. The hard block squeezes the cylinder walls so tightly it distorts them, it's imperitive that you hard block prior to beginning the machine work.
The cylinder walls of the C block are thin & have a tendency to split at power levels in the 500 bhp range & above. The hard block supports the cylinder wall much higher up along the outside, makes them considerably stiffer. As a side benefit, the cylinder walls flex less, ring seal is improved, and your engine should produce another 20 ft/lbs of torque. The draw back, oil temps tend to run 5 to 10 degrees hotter, but that is really not that much of a drawback. If you're going to track race or open road race your car, you should run an oil cooler anyway, which will more than compnsate.
I'm sure girdles are available if you or your mechanic asks around. I purchased one earlier this year from a Canadian named Jadeo Persad, he had several of them at the time. You may contact him & ask if he has any remaining at: goygoy3@yahoo.com. Tell him I referred you. Its a nice piece, it interferes a bit with the Armando pan, but a little grinding fixes that. Clevelands were so popular in racing for so many years, there are all sorts of race parts laying on shelves all around the country, its a matter of finding the mechanic or racer with the parts on the shelf collecting dust. Texas is a big state for auto racing, should be lots of stuff on shelves all over your state.
I am in the same boat as you regarding Clevors, I have too many C parts on the shelf. I keep banging the drum on the internet, for the manufacturers to read, that we need a good aftermarket C block, in iron to keep the price down. SJ performance will be manufacturing one in alloy, but its an expensive SOB.
your friend on the PIBB, George
You and I must have been typing at the same time this AM. Sorry I missed your post earlier this AM.
You are welcome, I'm glad you've found the advice you're getting helpful. This topic has had a lot of views, we've apparently got everybody's attention! lol.....
Your old school mechanic likes the iron heads because he "knows" them, he knows how to set them up & make power with them. He feels he'd have to start a whole new learning curve with the alloy head. In reality that isn't true, he can just bolt them on, no porting necessary to make over 400 bhp like you must with the iron heads. But some folks don't handle change well, and there's nobody more cantankerous & opinionated than an old mechanic, I know. If he knows Clevelands then you keep him. Again, it seems you've made good choices.
Yes I've done a little automotive & motorcycle work for others, built a few engines. I have the aptitude, got started real young. I've dealt with people about modifying their cars & engines. If you & I had been talking in person rather than on the internet, I would have really grilled you about budget & how you intend to use the car. Its very important that a mechanic & customer see eye to eye before any work begins.
With a stroker crank, roller cam & alloy heads, I think you are underestimating the torque/bhp you'll be making with your combo. You should be able to hit the 500 ft/lbs range. At 500 ft/lbs I strongly recommend you do a half fill with hard block. Do as much of the manual block prep as you can before hot tanking. Then hot tank the block, afterwards do the half fill with hard block (up to the bottom of the water pump passages). Let that cure for at least 30 days, then finish the machining work (align boring, decking, boring & honing). Your mechanic should know to do the boring & honing with the caps torqued in place and boring plates torqued to the decks. The hard block squeezes the cylinder walls so tightly it distorts them, it's imperitive that you hard block prior to beginning the machine work.
The cylinder walls of the C block are thin & have a tendency to split at power levels in the 500 bhp range & above. The hard block supports the cylinder wall much higher up along the outside, makes them considerably stiffer. As a side benefit, the cylinder walls flex less, ring seal is improved, and your engine should produce another 20 ft/lbs of torque. The draw back, oil temps tend to run 5 to 10 degrees hotter, but that is really not that much of a drawback. If you're going to track race or open road race your car, you should run an oil cooler anyway, which will more than compnsate.
I'm sure girdles are available if you or your mechanic asks around. I purchased one earlier this year from a Canadian named Jadeo Persad, he had several of them at the time. You may contact him & ask if he has any remaining at: goygoy3@yahoo.com. Tell him I referred you. Its a nice piece, it interferes a bit with the Armando pan, but a little grinding fixes that. Clevelands were so popular in racing for so many years, there are all sorts of race parts laying on shelves all around the country, its a matter of finding the mechanic or racer with the parts on the shelf collecting dust. Texas is a big state for auto racing, should be lots of stuff on shelves all over your state.
I am in the same boat as you regarding Clevors, I have too many C parts on the shelf. I keep banging the drum on the internet, for the manufacturers to read, that we need a good aftermarket C block, in iron to keep the price down. SJ performance will be manufacturing one in alloy, but its an expensive SOB.
your friend on the PIBB, George
Goerge,
I guess the hard block fill Does or does not affect Water temp. What is the weight added, oprox.
If I could find an aussy block what would be the cost?
Thanks, Kevin
I guess the hard block fill Does or does not affect Water temp. What is the weight added, oprox.
If I could find an aussy block what would be the cost?
Thanks, Kevin
Kevin,
The hard block does not affect water temp, the weight gain is minimal, as you are displacing coolant, the weight gain will amount to the difference in weight between the 2 materials.
Not all Australian blocks are good ones. Most are thin wall castings identical to the blocks cast in the US. The later Aussie blocks have a different size distributor hole & aren't viable as a US replacement. Ford had a small batch (or batches) of special blocks (reports quote only 200 blocks from the first casting) cast in Australia and distributed them to the race teams, NASCAR, drag racing etc. I've read that they were cast of a higher strength iron alloy, I can't verify that. These blocks had full width bulkheads & pan rails, a bit more material around the cylinder walls, the one I've seen had siamese bores, but that was an exception, perhaps even an experiment (I used to think they were all siamese because the one I saw was). The blocks were also checked for core shift of the cylinders prior to shipment to the US so only those with the most uniform cylinder wall thickness became the actual NASCAR blocks. The rejects with too much core shift were placed into production vehicles in Australia, so a NASCAR block locted in Australia has doubtful value. The NASCAR blocks did not crack under hard use. these blocks show up from time to time used, but I've never asked anybody how much they've had to spend to acquire one.
Other "sketch" and experimental parts, including blocks, show up on the market, you'll find them on e-bay. I don't know much about these parts other than that they exist. The block must be judged by how ready it is for use (fully machined?), how worn out it is, does it address the Clevelands problem areas like the NASCAR blocks (i.e. thicker bulkheads & pan rails). Buyer beware. Just because it is a special, non production, part doesn't necessarily mean it is any better.
your block head friend on the PIBB, George
The hard block does not affect water temp, the weight gain is minimal, as you are displacing coolant, the weight gain will amount to the difference in weight between the 2 materials.
Not all Australian blocks are good ones. Most are thin wall castings identical to the blocks cast in the US. The later Aussie blocks have a different size distributor hole & aren't viable as a US replacement. Ford had a small batch (or batches) of special blocks (reports quote only 200 blocks from the first casting) cast in Australia and distributed them to the race teams, NASCAR, drag racing etc. I've read that they were cast of a higher strength iron alloy, I can't verify that. These blocks had full width bulkheads & pan rails, a bit more material around the cylinder walls, the one I've seen had siamese bores, but that was an exception, perhaps even an experiment (I used to think they were all siamese because the one I saw was). The blocks were also checked for core shift of the cylinders prior to shipment to the US so only those with the most uniform cylinder wall thickness became the actual NASCAR blocks. The rejects with too much core shift were placed into production vehicles in Australia, so a NASCAR block locted in Australia has doubtful value. The NASCAR blocks did not crack under hard use. these blocks show up from time to time used, but I've never asked anybody how much they've had to spend to acquire one.
Other "sketch" and experimental parts, including blocks, show up on the market, you'll find them on e-bay. I don't know much about these parts other than that they exist. The block must be judged by how ready it is for use (fully machined?), how worn out it is, does it address the Clevelands problem areas like the NASCAR blocks (i.e. thicker bulkheads & pan rails). Buyer beware. Just because it is a special, non production, part doesn't necessarily mean it is any better.
your block head friend on the PIBB, George