AFD Alum heads

Kevin, Welcome to the PIBB! I did a quick search and found nothing. I know about AFR. Air Flow Reasearch. They make some very powerful products, and have a full line of street and race AL heads. I purchased a set of Brodix AL heads for my drag car off ebay for a resonable $1400. I added $600 with it and got the cam and compleate valvetrain included. You will find a lot of retiring racers that just can't take it anymore. AFR should be easy to find @ any search engine.

Kevin go to the afd website:
www. airflowdynamics.com

All the information on the various heads they make are there.

Kevin,

Let me be the second person to welcome you to the PIBB. Glad to have you with us!

There are 3 companies manufacturing aluminum 2V Cleveland heads at this time. Edelbrock, whom I am sure you are familiar with, plus 2 Australian companies: Air Flow Dynamics (AFD) and Cylinder Head Innovations (CHI). To your door in the US, fully prepared and ready to bolt onto your engine, the AFD 2V head is $2100 US, and the CHI head is $1950 US.

Here is the link to AFD: http://www.airflowdynamics.com.au/

And here is the link to CHI: http://www.chiheads.com/main.html

There is very little info available regarding the Edelbrock head, it is very new to the market. The AFD & CHI heads are very good products, both capable of supporting up to 600 bhp, and supplying air/fuel to a 351 cubic inch engine into the 7000 rpm range. They have well designed ports, modern high swirl combustion chambers & more centrally located spark plugs.

There is another Forum I hang out at specifically for the Cleveland engine, if you do a search in that database, you might find some owner feedback on those heads. Here's the link to that Forum: http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419?it=0

In my opinion, to have a set of iron heads fully rebuilt, machined for adjustable valve train, stainless steel valves installed, and ported will cost almost as much as the aluminum heads. For comparison, you can purchase a set of 302C heads (Australian Ford cast iron closed chamber 2V heads) fully rebuilt, prepped for adjustable valve train, 4V stainless steel valves installed from "Power Heads" for about $1000, for another $500 they'll hand port them as well, making them capable of supporting up to 500 bhp. That's $1500 total, and you would not have as good a head as the CHI or AFD heads, which will cost you another $450 to $600.

There is no such thing as a "bad" performing Cleveland cylinder head. The iron heads flow pretty good as cast. So if the budget is limited and you have to choose between one or the other, a hydraulic roller cam would be the wiser investment than an alloy cylinder head. I highly recommend using a hydraulic roller cam if you are attempting to increase the output of your motor.

I'll also take this opportunity to mention, besides 2V Cleveland heads, CHI makes a 3V head (2V intake port raised 3/8") and a 4V head. AFD makes a 4V head with a "stuffed" intake port (the floor of the port is raised).

your friend on the PIBB, George

Hello Kevin,
Welcome aboard. You've come to the right place for Pantera/Cleveland help. I have a set of the AFDs 2V heads. It's a good news, bad news situation. I could probably go on for pages here but I'll sum it up without thinking this through. It's going to cost a lot more than you're planning on when it's all said and done. I went with the AFDs with the intent on using a lot of my same stuff like intake and headers. The recommendation was to go with the Offy intake as it would fit under the stock screen, which I wanted to use. The intake needed a lot of work to match, beyond the normal port matching. It turns out, and I didn't know it at the time, that the heads came with a couple of spacers that go underneath the intake to raise it up. My heads were wrapped with some bubble wrap and were thrown in a box so they could bounce around. They were damaged but it took so long to get them I was glad they finally came. The box was damaged so I lost some spacers that go between the block and the intake. I didn't know what I didn't have so I had issues there. In order to get the whole thing to work I ended up buying headers anyway and that led to needing bigger pipes and all of that. It's a never ending story that a lot of us can tell on this board. One thing leads to another in the never ending quest for performance. That's the bad news I guess. The good news is that in spite of all the trials and tribulations, I'd buy the heads again. The car was dyno'd after the mods and I had 335hp at the rear wheels, more importantly was that the heads performed as promised. I don't have the dyno sheets in front of me but the torque curve was flat from 2,800 to 5,600 or something like that. It pulls all over the RPM range and that's what I was looking for. I've put over 10,000 miles on the car this summer, a lot of it on track and I haven't had any issues. If my wife didn't hate the car, she could probably drive it. There is another friend of mine locally who bought the 4V AFD's the same time as I got mine. He had a 408 or 393, I forget, and I think he had well over 500hp once again, proven on a dyno. I'll e mail him and tell him to write in his specifics. If you'd like to know more, give me a e mail and I'll go through my file at home and get out things like my cam card. One thing I do remember is that we kept adding advance and the engine loved it, I don't remember exactly where we ended up but the chamber shape was considered very efficient. It might have been as much as 40 total. As a side benefit, my mileage went up too. It's difficult to trust a Pantera gas gauge but I did the fill it up and then divide the mileage and how much it took to fill it back method. It might not be the most accurate. I took off a 650dp and went with a 770 Holley Street Avenger. I had major doubts but the engine guy said th trust him.
Where are you getting the heads from? I think there is a dealer in Illinois that is the official AFD dealer. While you're spending money, why don't you buy one of their Cleveland aluminum blocks and let us know how it works. I know they were supposed to be released soon. A few of us on this board would be candidates for that piece. Good luck and let me know if I can help. Vince

Vince,

Spacers? Really? CHI 3V's require spacers because the ports are raised, but the AFD 2V's? I'll be damn. Those are supposed to be standard location 2V ports. I'd like to know more. Are you running the Cleveland block, or a 9.5 Windsor block? What 2V Offy intake did you use?

I'm just trying to understand why spacers were involved at all.

Well I'm certainly sorry to read of the hell you went through, but I'm pleased to read you are happy with the results. The throttle response is bitchen isn't it?

your puzzled friend on the PIBB, George

I did call and spoke with dave at AFD and am impressed with the heads. Just wondered If anyone had them and how they liked the AFD's.
Sounds good.
Does any one have the 3V's?
I have not heard great things about the edlbrock's for a stroker.
Around $2,000 ish for heads is not to bad.
It's the $3,000 to $4,000 thats a killer.
Thanks, Kevin

You say that like it's a bad thing....
My wife's legs are to short to drive ours

[QUOTE]Originally posted by korina:
If my wife didn't hate the car, she could probably drive it.

I'm using the stock Cleveland block. I also gave the wrong intake manufacturer, I have a Weiand, not an Offy. I just finished reading about old Indy engines so my old, feeble mind has Offy on the brain. The spacers aren't the kind that go between the heads and manifold, these spacers go between the block and the manifold. The idea that you would just change the heads and go is where I screwed up. It was a happy ending though, Once you have everything torn apart you realize that you should change a lot more stuff in order to optimize the combination you're got. The heads really are the heart of the engine. Once you've spent the dough, the heads perform as advertised. Just remember you're dealing with a company across the world. My middle man was across the country.
I also ran into a surprise where it was discovered that I'd very recently bent a puhrod and leaned out # 5. The top of the piston was damaged and the con rod bearing was wasted. I had all the anguish of trying to figure out whether I needed to rebuild the whole short block or just buy some time. The decision was easy as I was out of money. Change the bearing and wait another year or 2 on the bottom end. That's another downside to having a loud, mid engine car. If the engine was in front of me, I think I would have heard and recognized the detonation. It's a happy ending though. The car screams and it's not a high strung beast. The heads worked as advertised. If you're looking for high RPM heads with a high winding motor and a very impressive HP number, get the Ford SVO heads. If you're looking for a car with a flat, broad torque curve, I'd recommend the AFD 2Vs. E mail me if you want specifics on my build. There is nothing exotic, just a well thought out combination of parts. Vince

The CHI intake fits the CHI 3V with raised ports. Would the CHI intake fit the AFD?

Gary

I was considering looking into the aluminum Heads and Manifold by Edelbrock. It's my understanding they offer a package for heads and manifold that are suppose to be bolt on ready.. The heads are complete and are 2V, 60 cc.

What is your thoughts on this set up ?

The best thing about Edelbrock is they may have their act together better then some of the smaller vendors. That is always a plus.

Gary

The edlbrock heads and itake might be a good combo for a 351 ci motor. But I have been told by several people that not on a stroker. AFD told me that they knew of a 380C stroke 2V steel heads dynoed. Then edlbrock heads dynoed, they made 30 to 40 HP more at 3,500 to 4,800. Before and after this the power and torque was flat.

Kevin

quote:

Originally posted by Coz:
I was considering looking into the aluminum Heads and Manifold by Edelbrock. It's my understanding they offer a package for heads and manifold that are suppose to be bolt on ready.. The heads are complete and are 2V, 60 cc.

What is your thoughts on this set up ?

I can't quit figure out how to email you.
kgovett@ev1.net
Kevin

quote:

Originally posted by korina:
I'm using the stock Cleveland block. I also gave the wrong intake manufacturer, I have a Weiand, not an Offy. I just finished reading about old Indy engines so my old, feeble mind has Offy on the brain. The spacers aren't the kind that go between the heads and manifold, these spacers go between the block and the manifold. The idea that you would just change the heads and go is where I screwed up. It was a happy ending though, Once you have everything torn apart you realize that you should change a lot more stuff in order to optimize the combination you're got. The heads really are the heart of the engine. Once you've spent the dough, the heads perform as advertised. Just remember you're dealing with a company across the world. My middle man was across the country.
I also ran into a surprise where it was discovered that I'd very recently bent a puhrod and leaned out # 5. The top of the piston was damaged and the con rod bearing was wasted. I had all the anguish of trying to figure out whether I needed to rebuild the whole short block or just buy some time. The decision was easy as I was out of money. Change the bearing and wait another year or 2 on the bottom end. That's another downside to having a loud, mid engine car. If the engine was in front of me, I think I would have heard and recognized the detonation. It's a happy ending though. The car screams and it's not a high strung beast. The heads worked as advertised. If you're looking for high RPM heads with a high winding motor and a very impressive HP number, get the Ford SVO heads. If you're looking for a car with a flat, broad torque curve, I'd recommend the AFD 2Vs. E mail me if you want specifics on my build. There is nothing exotic, just a well thought out combination of parts. Vince

Keven,
These are the heads I've been considering.
Performer RPM 351C
Designed for 351C, 351M and 400M
Very streetable 190cc intake runners
2.05" intake and 1.60" exhaust valves
"Compact charge" combustion chamber design
Optimized spark plug location

PERFORMER RPM FOR FORD 351C

Chamber Size
Intake Port Size
Valve Sizes (in/ex)
Bare (single)
Complete (single)

60cc
190cc
2.05"/1.60"
#61609*
#61629*

Note: When bolting on to 289/302 engines using 7/16" bolts, use stepped head bolt washer kit #9680.

Vince, is it possible you have CHI heads?

Here's a pic of a AFD 2V motor with a 2V intake, no adapter.

George

That top end sure do look purdy!

Michael

Hi Michael,

Yes, it looks BITCHEN! LOL

Australian heads & Australian intake manifold.

All the good stuff for the Cleveland comes from Australia these days.

Coz,

Edelbrock heads don't have much of a reputation for being big power makers out of the box, with porting yes, but not out of the box. Edelbrock's new Cleveland head is just too new. No feedback yet on it's performance. Lots of happy CHI & AFD customers out there, these are quality products, Vince's shipping problems aside.

I'll make a general statement. Cleveland 4V heads flow very well, don't expect to make more peak bhp with new heads. What you will accomplish with the 2V heads is more average torque across a wider powerband and better throttle response.

your friend on the PIBB, George

Hello George,
Definitely AFDs. No question. I'll take a picture. It's pretty obvious. Vince

Go to the cars for sale section and look at the car for sale earlier this month by toby7777. Look at his engine picture. You can see the spacer under his intake. Vince

Vince,

Thanks for steering me to the pic, yes I can see the spacer.

Kevin, did AFD Dave mention anything to you about the spacer?

I do remember reading several years ago of being able to order the AFD head with the manifold bolts drilled in a different location. Perhaps that is how the heads on the motor pic I posted had been drilled.

Vince I always appreciate feedback like this, although it is a small detail, I hate being in a position of not knowing all the details when I'm asked for advice. Or when I offer it readily like I do here ( ). In this case, it would be wrong to describe the AFD 2V head as a drop in 2V replacement, its actually a raised port head, like the CHI 3V.

your appreciative friend on the PIBB, George

Hey everybody,

I e-mailed David Webb of AFD for an explanation & he very promptly responded. The intake ports on the AFD 2V head are 0.100" higher, the manifold flanges of each head are extended so that a 2V manifold sits properly on the heads (ports & runners are in alignment), and the aluminum spacers are provided to merely fill in the gap between the manifold & lifter valley. He wrote quite often the cork gaskets are satisfactory & the aluminum spacers aren't even needed.

By contrast, the CHI 3V head has raised the ports about 0.375", their spacers are much thicker and definitely required if you are running a non-CHI 2V manifold with their head.

your friend on the PIBB, George

Hey George,
While you had the guy from AFD on the phone or e mail, did he mention anything about the aluminum blocks? Inquiring minds want to know!
Vince

Vince,

I was in contact with SJ Performance this summer, their expected release date was this coming December. At the time they quoted a price of $5000 US to your door, a big part of that has to be shipping. They also said they would offer a discount price of $4200 US for orders of 10 or more.

I was going to be first in line, but unexpected changes in my life have made that a dream for now. Those of you who can afford the alloy block are lucky dogs!

Kevin, have we answered your questions about the AFD heads satisfactorily? Vince seems stoked, even with the shipping problems he ran into.

your friend on the PIBB, George

Man is that beautiful.

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
Vince, is it possible you have CHI heads?

Here's a pic of a AFD 2V motor with a 2V intake, no adapter.

George

Interesting George. I will call you to discuss the options. Heading out your way next month, maybe we can get together. Would love to sit down and talk over some Buttery Nipples....

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:

Coz,

Edelbrock heads don't have much of a reputation for being big power makers out of the box, with porting yes, but not out of the box. Edelbrock's new Cleveland head is just too new. No feedback yet on it's performance. Lots of happy CHI & AFD customers out there, these are quality products, Vince's shipping problems aside.

I'll make a general statement. Cleveland 4V heads flow very well, don't expect to make more peak bhp with new heads. What you will accomplish with the 2V heads is more average torque across a wider powerband and better throttle response.

your friend on the PIBB, George

Coz,

I would enjoy that tremendously

George

Yes you and everyone else.
The AFD head does have a slightly raised port, but you can run any after Intake mainfold, acording to AFD.
No Dave dod not mension anything about spacers.

I also spoke with a distibuter for CHI (3V) and those are a HIGH PORT the requiers there intake at $550. Headers should work, according to CHI. They do have a new 4V head that just came out.

Ever thing that I have heard about the edlbrock head is not good. Quote "A big disappointment".

Thanks, Kevin

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
Vince,

I was in contact with SJ Performance this summer, their expected release date was this coming December. At the time they quoted a price of $5000 US to your door, a big part of that has to be shipping. They also said they would offer a discount price of $4200 US for orders of 10 or more.

I was going to be first in line, but unexpected changes in my life have made that a dream for now. Those of you who can afford the alloy block are lucky dogs!

Kevin, have we answered your questions about the AFD heads satisfactorily? Vince seems stoked, even with the shipping problems he ran into.

your friend on the PIBB, George

Where did you get the intake?

Kevin

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
Vince, is it possible you have CHI heads?

Here's a pic of a AFD 2V motor with a 2V intake, no adapter.

George

Kevin, that's not my motor. That's a Parker "2V" Funnelweb intake from Australia (Aussies call them inlet manifolds). Aus Ford Parts in Oregon is one vendor that comes immediately to mind. (503) 804-3117. He also sells the AFD heads.

Just to make sure you are clear on what's out there, CHI makes 4 flavors of head, 2V, 4V and 2 sizes of 3V. The 2V & 4V heads mate with standard 2V & 4V intakes, the 3V head mates with special CHI intakes OR 2V intakes with CHI spacers. The 3V head is available with 185 cc volume intake ports & 218cc volume intake ports.

AFD sells 2 flavors of head, 2V & "stuffed port" 4V. We've already covered the 2V head, the 4V head has intake ports with raised floors that mate up with the Parker "4V" Funnelweb & TFC intakes, which have raised floors in their runners. Raising the floors of the 4V intake port gives the port a contant cross section, reduces turbulence in the port, raises gas velocity and improves flow. Parker sells port "stuffers" for the cast iron 4V heads that are "glued & screwed" into the floors of the intake ports, allowing the use of the Funnelweb intake with cast iron heads. The stuffers make a big improvement.

On the street, non-competitve engines producing under 600 bhp, the AFD 2V head, CHI 2V head or the CHI 185cc 3V head are all that is needed. The small high flowing ports give tremendous throttle response and wide torque curves. I know this advice is contrary to the bigger is better mentality, which is hard for any of us to resist.

Other good parts coming from Australia are Yella Terra rocker arms, Roll Master timing chains & Romac balancers.

Because the subject of Cleveland heads is brought up regularly, I've been thinking of preparing an essay explaning the current choices in Cleveland heads & intakes. I would present the info differently than the way Dan Jones did, avoiding technical stuff about valve sizes & flow numbers, more of a simple overview. Would anyone find that useful? For myself, I thought if I prepared the info once, then each time the question was asked, I could just copy & paste my response, which saves a lot of typing and wear and tear on my arthritic hands.

your friend on the PIBB, George

Goerge,
If you go to CHI wed site they say there 218CC head, that you can use a standard 4v aftermarket manifold. A CHI vendor told me differant. I was all so told to use the 218CC (4V) head on my motor.

AFD can all so use a standard aftermarket manifold, with work.
AFD told me to use there 2V head and one of there vendors told me to go with there 4V heads.

In the end all of it can be cunfusing.

Thanks, Kevin

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
Kevin, that's not my motor. That's a Parker "2V" Funnelweb intake from Australia (Aussies call them inlet manifolds). Aus Ford Parts in Oregon is one vendor that comes immediately to mind. (503) 804-3117. He also sells the AFD heads.

Just to make sure you are clear on what's out there, CHI makes 4 flavors of head, 2V, 4V and 2 sizes of 3V. The 2V & 4V heads mate with standard 2V & 4V intakes, the 3V head mates with special CHI intakes OR 2V intakes with CHI spacers. The 3V head is available with 185 cc volume intake ports & 218cc volume intake ports.

AFD sells 2 flavors of head, 2V & "stuffed port" 4V. We've already covered the 2V head, the 4V head has intake ports with raised floors that mate up with the Parker "4V" Funnelweb & TFC intakes, which have raised floors in their runners. Raising the floors of the 4V intake port gives the port a contant cross section, reduces turbulence in the port, raises gas velocity and improves flow. Parker sells port "stuffers" for the cast iron 4V heads that are "glued & screwed" into the floors of the intake ports, allowing the use of the Funnelweb intake with cast iron heads. The stuffers make a big improvement.

On the street, non-competitve engines producing under 600 bhp, the AFD 2V head, CHI 2V head or the CHI 185cc 3V head are all that is needed. The small high flowing ports give tremendous throttle response and wide torque curves. I know this advice is contrary to the bigger is better mentality, which is hard for any of us to resist.

Other good parts coming from Australia are Yella Terra rocker arms, Roll Master timing chains & Romac balancers.

Because the subject of Cleveland heads is brought up regularly, I've been thinking of preparing an essay explaning the current choices in Cleveland heads & intakes. I would present the info differently than the way Dan Jones did, avoiding technical stuff about valve sizes & flow numbers, more of a simple overview. Would anyone find that useful? For myself, I thought if I prepared the info once, then each time the question was asked, I could just copy & paste my response, which saves a lot of typing and wear and tear on my arthritic hands.

your friend on the PIBB, George

Kevin,

I understand, I know it can be confusing. You'll get conflicting info from the manufacturer, from an engine builder and from a parts distributor. There are all sorts of "people" factors involved with trying to get info from the right source.

The CHI 218cc head is a 3V head, not their 4V head. I don't think there is any info as of yet on their website regarding the 4V head.

I've done this sort of thing for others. I am willing to sort through it all with you, here on the PIBB or off line, what ever you are comfortable with. I'll answer every question you have until you have a clear idea of how to proceed. If we do this on the PIBB, others may read & benefit.

If you want to proceed further, I need to dig a bit of info from you. I need to understand you, the budget & your goals for the car. I am assuming the engine is going into a Pantera, correct me if I'm wrong. What will the displacement of your motor be, what type of cam do you plan to use (flat tappet or roller, hydraulic or solid), what power band do you want the car to have, in 4000 rpm limits (i.e. 1500 to 5500, 2000 to 6000, 2500 to 6500 or 3000 to 7000), how do you intend to use the car (transportation, high performance street driving, mostly city, mostly open road, competitive track driving, etc), what aspects are important to you (driveability, fuel economy, reliability, acceleration, looking wild) and what parts have you already acquired?

your nosey friend on the PIBB, George

(gp_fillmore@yahoo.com)

George,

When you get around to doing the essay, why don't you submit a copy to Dave Adler for publishing in an upcoming issue of PI? I think the essay, and publishing it would both be great ideas!

Michael

George, any chance you could publish flow numbers too?
Gary

Hi Gary,

I think flow numbers would be getting too technical, what I want to do is provide an easy reading over view that is basic enough for anyone to understand and avoid getting bogged down in numbers.

Dan Jones has a good database of info on Cleveland heads, you can find it in several locations on the internet, such as on Mike Dailey's web site, the Pantera Place. Mr. Jones is an engineer by trade, and has a very thorough approach towards engine stuff, he's good with the details.

your basic friend on the PIBB, George

What the hec We can go through this and let others learn.
The motor will be a 393 c stroker scat cast crank, scat cast or forged rods, forged pistons, comp roller hydraulic cam 578lift 230 duration @.050, roller rockers, alum heads, spin to max 6,500, power band 1500 to 5500. budget $5,000 to $5,500.
Primarily street driven with good street manners, some high performance street, little track time. I have looked at AFD, CHI and used SVO C302 heads.
I have not purchased any parts yet.

Thanks, Kevin

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
Kevin,

I understand, I know it can be confusing. You'll get conflicting info from the manufacturer, from an engine builder and from a parts distributor. There are all sorts of "people" factors involved with trying to get info from the right source.

The CHI 218cc head is a 3V head, not their 4V head. I don't think there is any info as of yet on their website regarding the 4V head.

I've done this sort of thing for others. I am willing to sort through it all with you, here on the PIBB or off line, what ever you are comfortable with. I'll answer every question you have until you have a clear idea of how to proceed. If we do this on the PIBB, others may read & benefit.

If you want to proceed further, I need to dig a bit of info from you. I need to understand you, the budget & your goals for the car. I am assuming the engine is going into a Pantera, correct me if I'm wrong. What will the displacement of your motor be, what type of cam do you plan to use (flat tappet or roller, hydraulic or solid), what power band do you want the car to have, in 4000 rpm limits (i.e. 1500 to 5500, 2000 to 6000, 2500 to 6500 or 3000 to 7000), how do you intend to use the car (transportation, high performance street driving, mostly city, mostly open road, competitive track driving, etc), what aspects are important to you (driveability, fuel economy, reliability, acceleration, looking wild) and what parts have you already acquired?

your nosey friend on the PIBB, George

(gp_fillmore@yahoo.com)

Kevin,

I think you can go a little more aggressive with the cam. I had a hydraulic roller in my .020 over Cleveland rebuild in my other Pantera ('74). It pulled from 1500 to 6500 smoothly and powerfully.

The specs were: 236 int & 244 exh on a 112 lobe separation with about .600 lift, installed straight up.

I had 10.5:1 compression with stock 4bbl heads that were converted for an adjustable valvetrain, and bowl blended. I used intake and exhaust port plates with a TorkerII and a Holley 750vac sec. It was a great combo!

It was a total street motor (my intention) and there were absolutey no issues with it's street manners. I thought the idle would 'rump' more, but roller cams reduce it with their smoother action.

I'd go with something like a 244 & 252 @ .050 on a 112 lsa with .600ish lift. Your extra cubes will absorb the extra duration yet deliver more power right up to your 6500 RPM limit.

Just my opinion.

Michael

Hi Kevin,

You've made some good choices, very reasonable, nothing wild & crazy. We can't do it "all" for $5K though. So, there's a couple of ways to go. One would be to do a good solid rebuild of the motor, install the parts that are within budget & plan a second partial tear down to install the parts you had to wait on. The second way to go would be to continue driving what you have and begin the rebuild when the budget has grown the necessary amount. Engine rebuilding/hot rodding always cost more than people anticipate.

The biggest bang for your buck will be the stroker kit. The 351C with 4V heads comes on the cam at 3000 rpm. Sitting on top of a 351 cubic inch motor, those big port heads want to run about 3000 to 7000 rpm. Add a 3.85" crank, and now the power band shifts downward to about 2500 to 6500 rpm, the increased displacement works the heads harder, improving throttle response. There is no question the heads are capable of "feeding" the extra displacement. The extra displacement AND the extra leverage of the longer stroke crank make more torque, and they make it in a more streetworthy powerband.

The second biggest improvement is a hydraulic roller cam. They open the valves quicker & higher, hold them open longer and then close the valves quicker too. The extra lift also works the Cleveland head harder and improves throttle response, BUT since you are now taking better advantage of the breathing characteristics of those heads, they reward you with big gains in torque (bhp) as well.

Lets talk about torque for a minute. Torque is what a motor makes Horsepower is simply [torque x rpm / 5252]. At 5252 rpm torque always = bhp. Making the most average torque over a wide band of rpm is what you want to accomplish, if the powerband is moved to a higher rpm, the bhp numbers get bigger, but the torque is still the same. Drag racers build engines that run at high rpm, they make big bhp numbers BUT they launch their cars at 4000 rpm or more. I doubt you intend to launch your Pantera at 4000 rpm, so a reasonable powerband, like 1500 rpm to 5500 rpm is a good choice and it makes me smile that you set your goal at that point. Your bhp numbers will not be as big, but you can make the same torque, and launch off the line at 1500 rpm just where you've chosen for the motor's powerband to begin.

You could do the partial build, and then find you like the motor so much you may decide you don't "need" alloy heads, unless of course the alloy head "look" is what you're after.

One question that people always ask, just because you've selected to go with a cam that provides a power band of 1500 to 5500 rpm, that doesn't mean your engine won't rev higher, it will. An engine will rev until something limits it; either the exhaust system, the carb/fuel system, the ignition system, the cylinder heads or the valve springs. If you do this engine right, in your case it will be the valve springs.

The crank kit & roller cam is where I would suggest you start, if you go that route, and add the alloy heads at a later date.

I strongly urge you to rebuild the motor and not just bolt hot rod parts on a "seasoned" short block. That's a formula for disaster AND you won't make the power you would with a fresh short block. More than anything else, making big power numbers is all about getting the rings to seal. Hot rod engine builders secret #1. I feel like I'm exposing the magicians secrets, but thats the truth. Power production is very much proportional to the amount of time spent on the rings. I have spent too many late evenings of my life filing rings & fitting them in cylinder bores!

There are some other important pieces involved in putting your motor together right, which is why the $5K budget isn't enough. You'll need to purchase a new balancer or have the current one rebuilt (a company called Damper Dudes rebuilds them). A 30 year old balancer is a problem waiting to happen, ask Murphy when that will be (you know, the guy with the "Law"). You will need a "good" set of roller rockers to compliment that high lift cam kit, rockers you can rely on not to fail & throw needle bearings around in your fresh new engine, Crane's gold series or perhaps the cast stainless steel rockers sold by Comp Cams & others. You'll need to install adjustable valve train in the Ford heads (if you go that route). If you retain the Ford heads, you'll also need new one piece valves & good spring retainers & keepers. I strongly urge you to invest in a large capacity, baffled oil pan, consider it motor insurance. You need a new ignition system, a distributor with an advance mechanism that works smoothly & reliably, and an ignition that will provide better spark at higher rpm than the stocker. You need a better exhaust system than the stocker, a good set of headers and larger diameter exhaust tubing feeding the Ansas, the oem 2" stuff is too restrictive. You're going to find Pantera exhaust systems are pricey! But without an exhaust system, your new engine will not run to its potential, you might as well not even begin the project, it's that important. You need a good carb to feed fuel to this motor, the spread bore Autolite will work, but not the early square bore Autolite. A 750 Holley is my recommendation beyond the spread bore Autolite. It doesn't matter if the Holley is a double pumper or a vacuum secondary, one gets better fuel economy, one allows faster acceleration, but they both flow the same. The Holley may need tuning by a pro depending upon the model you purchase. You'll also need a better fuel pump than the stocker to feed fuel to this new motor. The Autolite carb limits your chioces in intake manifolds, the Holley will fit just about everything.

This is a good point for me to stop, the intake manifold leads me to a question for you. What sort of an induction system are you invisioning, a high rise single plane manifold that pokes up through the engine screen and looks bad ass, or a manifold that keeps everything below the engine screen, nice and discreet?

Besides that question, which direction are you thinking of taking, waiting for the budget to build up, or doing a 2 part engine build up?

How'd I do so far? If I haven't made something clear enough, feel free to fire questions back at me.

your friend on the PIBB, George

Goerge,
I wasn't including the balancer in that number but is on the list. I have a 10qt Armondo pan , not intalled. There is an MSD distributer and a 6a box that I put on the car.
Dennis Q. has also sugested the get rid of the cast flywheel, he has an alum flywheel.
Roller rockers are a must.
Maybe the engine budget should be $5,500 to $6,000. Yes I am going to change the exghaust, this is above the engine budget.

I will go will alum heads, the question is which ones. I can't see putting around $1,000 in steel heads, when around a $1,000 ish more you can get alum with today's tech port and combustion chambers.
Both company's suggest single plane intakes. The screen was one of the first things to be thrown in the attic. I have a nice oval air cleaner 4" tall.
I will go to a holley 750DP along with a bigger pump and 3/8 fuel lines from the tank to the carb.

Thanks, Kevin

Hi Kevin,

Again, you are making good choices, I will spend most of this post writing about cylinder heads, but I want to touch on the subjects of crankshaft weight and intake manifolds (inlet manifolds for you Aussie guys!).

Regarding lightened rotating parts, I don't want to put myself in a position of providing info contrary to Dennis Q, he makes a living building engines, so I'm not going to write anything controversial, I'll just provide the facts and let you make your own decision.

The weight of the rotating assembly in the 351C was not chosen haphazardly. It was engineered by the designers of the 351C based on many factors, including ease of operation in the vehicles it was intended for installation (Torinos & Mustangs). Lightening the reciprocating assembly is a two edged sword. A heavy rotating assembly is easier to accelerate from a stop, easier to operate at slow speeds like in parking lots, less prone to spin the tires, easier to operate in stop & go situations. A lighter rotating assembly accelerates faster, which is very fun once the vehicle is moving and traveling faster than parking lot speed. But there are 2 drawbacks, first it makes the vehicle more difficult to accelerate from a stop and operate at slow speeds, second it makes the vehicle more prone towards spinning the tires, i.e losing traction. The first drawback is not a consideration if the vehicle is strictly a competition vehicle, but its a bear if the vehicle is operated on the street. A lighter rotating assembly "can" be an advantage on certain race tracks, but it can be a disadvantage on other tracks, it depends upon how good the traction is on any given day. The fine line between having traction and losing traction under acceleration becomes more difficult to control as the rotating assembly gets lighter. It is one of the things professional race teams juggle when setting a vehicle up for a particular track, both in motorcycle racing and auto racing. Spinning tires do not accelerate a vehicle, they slow a vehicle down and make it too difficult for the driver to control. With motorcycles we will add weights to the ignition rotor, we'll have several rotors with various amounts of weight added so we can experiment to find the ideal set up, we also replace aluminum clutch plates with steel plates to achieve the same affect. I will make one strong statement, do not lighten your rotating assembly if you plan to ever drive your Pantera in the rain, on wet surfaces.

A Pantera is lighter than a Mustang or Torino, so no doubt the reciprocating assembly can stand to be lightened a small amount without ill effect. And I can't argue that building a much more powerful cleveland motor, something other than the oem cast flywheel is needed. You'll also need more clutch, to transmit the additional power without slippage. It doesn't matter what material the flywheel is made of, steel or aluminum, the question is, how much weight can your new clutch & flywheel assembly lose in comparison to the oem assembly, before your Pantera becomes a SOB to drive on the street. You may want to speak with Coz, as he recently installed an alloy flywheel on his Pantera.

On to intake manifolds. For the powerband you are aiming for, a 2 plane manifold would be the best choice for a single 4 barrel carbureted engine. But I think you are wanting a high rise single plane poking out the back. That's OK, you aren't alone by a long shot. I think it looks BITCHEN too. The long runners of the high rise intakes actually make more torque, but the 2 plane manifolds work better below about 3000 rpm. You'll notice the advertised powerband for most single plane intakes starts at 3000 rpm. However, many high rise intakes are designed with small volume runners & plenums because the designers had low rpm throttle response in mind. So it is possible to run the high rise intake on the street without much penalty in the way of throttle response, especially with the heads you'll be running. This does normally require some custom carb jetting however, so be prepared.

Finally getting to the subject of cylinder heads, I agree with you, with such good choices in alloy heads available for about $600 extra bucks, it doesn't make much sense to pour money into the iron heads. I had to give you choices however, not knowing where your mind or budget are at.

If you want to run Ford Motorsport high port heads, the best choice would be the smallest port, C302 head, and matching A331 Jack Roush intake. If you're buying used heads, you'll want a pair that have had very little porting done. If they've been ported to operate at 8000 rpm, they have been ruined for your uses. Those parts were popular among the Pantera crowd because at one time they were the only choices if you wanted alloy heads. Pantera headers are available for these heads. You cannot just go out and buy these parts, you have to hunt them down. The combustion chamber design in the Motorsport heads is 30 years behind the times. But the ports are very good.

Ford A3 & B351 heads: big ports. Blue Thunder heads: big ports. Brodix BF 300 heads: big ports. Yates heads: the valves aren't canted, they require Yates pistons & Jesel rocker arms. You could run these heads on the street, but I think better street heads are available.

I'll spend the rest of this post writing about the alloy street heads that are readily available. And I am going to throw 4 of the alloy heads out the window right off the bat. The Edelbrock head so far is very much an unknown commodity, and people are speculating its aimed at the show & truck crowd more so than the performance crowd. I really can't say, its performance is too unknown for us to consider at this time, so out it goes. The CHI 185cc 3V head is aimed at the 351 cubic inch motor, and not at strokers, out it goes too. The CHI 4V head would only be a consideration if you were wanting to run a specific 4V intake manifold, like the Holley Strip Dominator or Blue Thunder; you're not, so out it goes. The last head to get the axe is the AFD 4V head, that head is a high rpm strip head. Very big ports. The intake ports are close in size to the intake ports of the Ford Motorsport A3 head. It is aimed at use with the Parker 4V funnelweb intake, another big power item.

That leaves for your consideration the CHI 2V head, The CHI 218cc 3V head and the AFD 2V head. I see your needs as being best met with a motor that emphasizes torque in the lower rpm range (in spite of the fact you're going to run a single plane intake). I agree with David Webbs choice of his 2V heads, but I don't quite understand why CHI recommended the 218cc 3V head over their own 2V head, unless of course they want to sell you an intake manifold as well, because they don't manufacture 2V intakes. Lets look at these 3 heads, there are shades of differences between the 3. I'll start with the "smallest" head and work my way up.

The CHI 2V head has an intake port of standard height and 190cc in volume. The AFD 2V head has an intake port that is raised 0.10" and 200cc in volume. The CHI 218cc 3V head has an intake port that is raised 0.375" and 218cc in volume. Compared to the first 2 heads, this last head will emphasize torque production at a higher rpm. As a side note, the intake port of the CHI 218cc 3V head has close to the same volume as an "out of the box" version of the intake port of the Ford Motorsport C302 head. Without running these parts side by side on a dyno, it is foolish to say which one would work best for you. All 3 would be good choices, there are no dogs in this trio. I think you can see the CHI 2V head will emphasize torque production at the lowest rpm, the CHI 3V head will emphasize torque production at the highest rpm and the AFD 2V head falls somewhere in the middle.

For intakes, with the CHI & AFD 2V heads you'll want to run the Parker 2V funnelweb. AFD is advertising a new line of manifolds designed in house, but I have heard nothing about them, I don't even think they're on the market yet. The Parker manifold is a known good intake. With the CHI 3V head, your best choice will be their own intake designed for the 218cc 3V head and Holley 4150 carb, on the Cleveland block. Be ready for sticker shock, these Aussie intakes run about $500 clams USD.

Is that enough info for you to make an intelligent choice? If so, the next thing to discuss are the needs of the Cleveland engine in regards to rebuilding the short block. Whenever you're ready.

Kevin, if you or anybody has questions, fire away!

Did anybody notice I didn't confuse the issue by talking flow numbers? They all flow good enough, there is no such thing as a bad Cleveland head.

your friend on the PIBB, George

George,

I would be honoured to hear you opinion, comments and advice on building a short block. The criteria being a street/performance engine. What about a stroker/forged crank etc.?

Why hydraulic roller lifters?

What is you recommendation for alluminum heads for a street performance motor? or is it better to stick with a built up stock (iron) 4V Closed Chamber heads. I would rather stick with my engine under the engine cover so, a dual plane manifold with Holley carb is what I would lean to. What do you recommend here?

Finally, is there a "trouble free" EFI system that fits under the engine cover you would recommend.

I have been following this discussion item ... but since you opened the door for short block discussion, I decided to enter.

Thanks
B. Goyaniuk

Intake manifold, Dave at AFD reqemended the single plane. He say's that the bottom end torque lost via the single plane intake will be more than made up by the added cubes.

Shortblock. Planed build, stroker kit .030 bore.

Oil modes (builder restricks oil to the main cam bearings by drilling new oil holes in bearings and installing with these lined up). Along with the normal block clean and prep.

Kevin

Kevin,
An Aluminum flywheel is totally different than what your probably used too.
Whereas the cast iron flywheel produces that grunt torq, squat and go feeling.....
The aluminum one is lighter feeling. Doesn't have that hard grunt and go feeling.
It rev's up much faster, is smoother getting to speed and you don't lose as many RPM's when being on it and shifting from gear to gear.
With my old iron flywheel, running the tach to 6 grand and going into the next gear while staying on it, my RPM's would drop from 6 to just under 4. With the alum one, it will drop to about 4200 and then rev back up to 6 in a heart beat.
Without the grunt and go feeling, you think your not going as fast, but as I'm getting used to the feeling of it, I'm realizing that I am actually going just as fast but getting there quicker.
I would say it changes the performance from being a 1/4 mile type car to being a road racing track car. And if I want, I can still break the 335's loose without much of a problem off the line. Which I rarely ever do.
Takes a little more gas to get rolling, but no big deal.
Next time I'm into it, I will however replace the clutch disc with the double sided carbon fiber one.
Hope that helps brother......

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KevinG:
Dennis Q. has also sugested the get rid of the cast flywheel, he has an alum flywheel.

Also Coz, an aluminum flywheel makes it sound more like a race car when you goose the throttle. Instant revs always sound cool.

Kevin,

My only advice at this point is to use an engine builder that knows the Cleveland. A guy who does Chevys will make a mess of a Cleveland job. And don't use a "rebuilder" which is a guy who normally just does rebuilds of oem motors. In the mind of a rebuilder, all the things a hot rodder does to make an engine stay alive while producing 60% more power is silliness.

My apprehension would be, if the builder you've selected knew Clevelands, why couldn't he have advised you regarding cyliner heads.

Restricting oil to the cam bearings is just one of several considerations in building a Cleveland.

If you don't zero deck the block, you're giving up at least 20 bhp. If you don't do a half fill with hard block, at the right time in the block prep process, you'll give up at least another 20 bhp. At 500 bhp, you are entering the area with a Cleveland block where you "need" to use hard block due to the increasing likelihood of cylinder wall failure. At 500 bhp you also need to install a main cap girdle (not the same as a rocker stud girdle).

Good Luck, George

George, how can you in all good conciousness advice someone to use a 351 Weakblock, when we both know full well that Ford ran out of money before they got done designing it and wound up with a weenie dog for a bottom end. If someone wants serious Ford power they must use the 427 side oiler FE block as a starting point. You can get brand new alloy casting blocks and stroker kits up to and exceeding five hundred cubes. If they are putting serious money into a hot rod engine, they will be much better served buying a stable starting point like this.

http://www.genesis427.com/

Looks enticing. But will it fit?

Coz,

Great feedback regarding the aluminum flywheel, very descriptive!

DeTom,

Great link. Every time I see an aluminum block, I get a warm, fuzzy feeling inside!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Kevin Perry:
Looks enticing. But will it fit?

Of course it will Kevin. A lot easier than a true big block does. Most people don't realize the FE isn't really a big block. It started life as a 352 Cubic inch motor. It is only one inch taller than the 351 Weakland. And in all aluminum trim like that, probably weighs a couple of hundred pounds less than the boat anchor we have as an engine. And it is way, way stronger.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:

DeTom,

Great link. Every time I see an aluminum block, I get a warm, fuzzy feeling inside!

Michael

Yep, George has convinced me that the 351 Weakland is just too flimsy to make any serious HP with. Think about it. Guys are on here all the time talking about how they just put a new motor in and it pukes all over them. Not so with the good old side oiler. Designed from day one to take the abuse. Now the link I gave is probably the cheapest you can buy. Carrol Shelby has been making all aluminum 427 FEs for several decades now. But they tend to be a might on the pricey side.

Sure, install a mega bhp motor in your Pantera.

Ought to keep Lloyd B smiling as you buy parts to keep your ZF together.

And who ever sells you half shafts & axles will probably just pre-print a couple hundred address lables for you too.

Speed cost money, how fast do yo want to go?

What do you plan to do with your mega buck all alloy FE dinosaur motor, cruise to 'Vegas?

Bet I get to 'Vegas just as fast with my stock '74 motor.

But I"LL have more money in my pocket to spend once we get there.

George

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
Sure, install a mega bhp motor in your Pantera.

Ought to keep Lloyd B smiling as you buy parts to keep your ZF together.

And who ever sells you half shafts & axles will probably just pre-print a couple hundred address lables for you too.

Speed cost money, how fast do yo want to go?

What do you plan to do with your mega buck all alloy FE dinosaur motor, cruise to 'Vegas?

Bet I get to 'Vegas just as fast with my stock '74 motor.

But I"LL have more money in my pocket to spend once we get there.

George

Surely you are not refearing to moi?? The guy who put the low compresion boat anchor in his car because he was tired of mixing in octane boost?? I am not the one recommending 500 horsepower cams and such. BUT if someone is so inclined as to spend big money doing so, they should protect that investment by starting with something solid. Yeah I bet an FE built to 500 horse will way outlast your Cleveland built to 500 horse. Years from now they will be changing the oil while you change out your whole motor. You are right, speed is expensive, but skimping to get there is even more expensive. It is like the old commercial. You can pay me now, or pay me later.

I've seen connecting rods poking out the side of an iron FE block before! They aren't indestructible.

Its apples & oranges to compare that alloy FE to an iron Cleveland. Compare an iron FE to the iron Cleveland, or compare an aftermarket alloy FE to an aftermarket alloy Cleveland or Clevor.

Why would the alloy FE engine cost any less, or be any stronger than an all alloy Cleveland or Clevor?

You build an alloy FE for a certain dollar amount, I'll build an alloy Cleveland for the same amount, and I'll race you for pinks, DEAL?

George

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
I've seen connecting rods poking out the side of an iron FE block before! They aren't indestructible.

Its apples & oranges to compare that alloy FE to an iron Cleveland. Compare an iron FE to the iron Cleveland, or compare an aftermarket alloy FE to an aftermarket alloy Cleveland or Clevor.

Why would the alloy FE engine cost any less, or be any stronger than an all alloy Cleveland or Clevor?

You build an alloy FE for a certain dollar amount, I'll build an alloy Cleveland for the same amount, and I'll race you for pinks, DEAL?

George

Because of the inherant weakness of the Cleveland casting. You are the one who told me about it. They fall apart right in the middle just above the bearing journals. And was the FE you saw with the rod though it a side oiler?? That would ruin my day and turn me off to Fords completely. My block failed right where you said it would. Most of my parts were laying in the oil pan. You were right. The Cleveland block is junk. Now if you tell me the sideoiler is junk too, I will never own another Ford.

You bring to mind one good point though, DeTom.

A fellow decides to build a powerful motor on the Cleveland foundation. Todays stroker cranks, alloy heads & roller cams make building lots of bhp realtively simple. Then this fellow hires the local engine mechanic to build the motor, a mechanic who agrees to build it for $1200 plus parts. We hear from this fellow a year later, his motor ventillated itself and ruined at least $5K worth of parts, he's mad at the mechanic, he's mad at the Cleveland motor, he's mad at the fellow on the internet who gave him advice regarding what parts to buy. He's even mad at the Holiday Inn.

But he's not mad at himself for hiring the wrong mechanic, or for shopping price when he selected a mechanic when he should have been shopping for experience instead.

your tell it like it is friend on the PIBB, George

You are right again George. BTW, that race wouldn't be fair anyway. You know full well I couldn't get an engine to run let alone outrun anything you built. So you would have to give me a slighht handi-cap. Oh say, a budget ten times of yours and I get to use Yates racing to build for me.

I'm not in the mood for this Cleveland bashing today, NOT ONE MOTOR I built ever broke. Including about a half dozen Clevelands (not counting the C's in my own cars). Because I built them to survive the intended usage. Some people rolled their eyes and accused me of overbuilding engines. But my clients cars would motor on by while my detractors were broken on the side of the road.

George

Another good point you made George is the ZF or 1/2 shafts are not going to handle the mega HP. They become the weak links, specially the ZF.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by george pence:

Thanks Mike.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cyboman:
Coz,
Great feedback regarding the aluminum flywheel, very descriptive!

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
I'm not in the mood for this Cleveland bashing today, NOT ONE MOTOR I built ever broke. Including about a half dozen Clevelands (not counting the C's in my own cars). Because I built them to survive the intended usage. Some people rolled their eyes and accused me of overbuilding engines. But my clients cars would motor on by while my detractors were broken on the side of the road.

George

Yeah but that's because you probably never put the wrong wires on the wrong plugs like I did. Try that sometime and see how long your engine lasts. Go ahead, I dare ya. :P

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
I'm not in the mood for this Cleveland bashing today, NOT ONE MOTOR I built ever broke. Including about a half dozen Clevelands (not counting the C's in my own cars). Because I built them to survive the intended usage. Some people rolled their eyes and accused me of overbuilding engines. But my clients cars would motor on by while my detractors were broken on the side of the road.

George

Yea, If people don't like Pantera's I am not sure why they are here. They may as well go buy a 6cyl Delorian econobox. Those engines last right? Oh yea, they don't produce any power.

Gary

Oh come on Gary, if I can't tease old George what fun will I have??? I gotta be able to tease someone. It is all part of my meaness. It is like the old song says, "I gotta be mean!"

Does that mean you don't want to trade it for a Delorean?

You know Jonesborough isn't that far away.

Gary

Gary, DeTom, it's OK.

It's me, not DeTom. I've been sick, I'm taking anti-biotics that sap all my energy, headache, so on and so forth. Blah, blah, blah. Getting old. LOL!

I've had a couple of frustrations related to the internet today. Unkind & unthankful people. But that's what you expose yourself to when you hang out on the internet. Its easy enough to just "log off", but then the people I intend to help are the ones who lose out, not the very very few who grate on the nerves. Got to let it roll of my back & keep moving ahead, all systems go.

All said, I think I've thrown it back at DeTom pretty good today, huh?

Your friendships are appreciated.

George

Kevin funny thing I'm building the same motor 393 using parts from SCAT. I ahve been doing a lot of research and found that the intake I want to use is a weber manifold which comes in the traditonal 4v configuration, ( so they say, I will confirm this when I get the manifold) but from what I gather even the CHI 4V heads the ports are smaller and dont match. So there is a lot of work to do to get all this to match up. I'm leaning towards using my 4V cast iron open chamber heads. open chambers require flat top pistons which both flow better then closed chamber heads. So I'm still in the process and if you wish to compare notes email me ronmarl@optonline.net

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by comp2:
Yea, If people don't like Pantera's I am not sure why they are here. They may as well go buy a 6cyl Delorian econobox. Those engines last right? Oh yea, they don't produce any power.

Gary

comp2,
It's not the Pantera that Detom doesn't like..it's the 351C. I can understand his frustration..considering he recently went through an expensive rebuild.

Kevin

Thank Kevin. It wasn't so much the cost of the rebuild, but I have invested in some pretty expensive parts, forged crank, vanadium I-beam rods, four bolt mains, hypenetic pistons, in a block of somewhat questionable integrity, thinking it would solve the weakness problem. Then I find out it is the block itself that is inherrantly weak and not the components I bought to "fix" the problem. Yeah if I had known I would have maybe got a Dart block and made a cleavor or whatever. But I have a buddy who has a source for the side oilers. THey are expensive, and I have always wanted one. But I could have had one for about the same money as a Dart Cleavor.
Oh well, live and learn. Besides my hot rodding days are over. I am getting too old.

quote:

Originally posted by comp2:
Does that mean you don't want to trade it for a Delorean?

You know Jonesborough isn't that far away.

Gary

Not me. My sone does though. He loved that movie, back to the future and he would trade my car straight up in a heartbeat.

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
Gary, DeTom, it's OK.

It's me, not DeTom. I've been sick, I'm taking anti-biotics that sap all my energy, headache, so on and so forth. Blah, blah, blah. Getting old. LOL!

I've had a couple of frustrations related to the internet today. Unkind & unthankful people. But that's what you expose yourself to when you hang out on the internet. Its easy enough to just "log off", but then the people I intend to help are the ones who lose out, not the very very few who grate on the nerves. Got to let it roll of my back & keep moving ahead, all systems go.

All said, I think I've thrown it back at DeTom pretty good today, huh?

Your friendships are appreciated.

George

Oh man. I am sorry George. I had no idea you were feeling poorly. I apologise for yanking your chain. I was teasing a sick person. What's wrong with me??

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:

quote:

Originally posted by comp2:
Does that mean you don't want to trade it for a Delorean?

You know Jonesborough isn't that far away.

Gary

Not me. My sone does though. He loved that movie, back to the future and he would trade my car straight up in a heartbeat.

Well you kknow those Delorean 150hp V6 really last!

Gary

Yeah, but that is one case where you hope it blows up so you can put something nice in it's place.

George,
I do thank you for you help, as I said before it gets confusing.

I do have a local Clevland guy that races them. But he is OLD SCHOOL and loves the old steel heads.
I take it that you build 351c either for a living or for others?

On the block fill, is this needed for a high 400 hp motor. Is this basicly a fill of the lower section of the water jackets?
Will this affect the cooling?

Where can I get a main stud gurdle for a clevland?

I have thought about building a clevor but I do have the dist and oil pan for a C. Plus I would need a/c bracket. I have talked myself out of it though.

Thanks again all, Kevin

Good morning all, I'd like to address some things Ron mentioned back on page 13.

Ron, regarding weber mainfolds, there are 2 Australian manifolds with 2V size ports, the Cain (no longer in production) and the Redline. Outside of those 2 manifolds, to my best knowledge, all the other 351C Weber manifolds have 4V size ports. The Hall Pantera manifold seems to be the most readily available manifold. They change hands a lot.

Regarding the CHI 4V head, John of CHI shared some photos of the head with me earlier this year, the ports of the head in the photos were unmistakably 4V size ports.

Regarding open chamber heads, there is a lot of opinion on the subject of open combustion chambers verses closed combustion chambers. Here's the facts: All Cleveland racing heads and aftermarket heads feature closed combustion chambers. The designers of these heads obviously believe the closed combustion chamber design is superior. An open combustion chamber is a “hemispherical” pocket in the cylinder head containing the valves and spark plug that is the same diameter as the cylinder bore. Closed combustion chambers feature a smaller combustion chamber containing the valves and spark plug that is surrounded by flat cylinder head surfaces creating an area referred to as the “squish area”. Ford’s purpose in equipping some motors with closed chamber heads was to raise the compression ratio of the motor. The smaller volume of the closed chamber heads does just that. However in order for the squish area to aid in producing additional horsepower, the clearance between piston dome and the cylinder head at top dead center must be 0.045” +/- 0.010” on a street motor. It is common for racing engines to set this clearance even smaller. As delivered by Ford, this clearance is approximately 0.070”. This clearance is too large to realize the benefits of “squish”. Squish aids the engine during the compression and exhaust cycles. As the piston stroke reaches top dead center during the compression cycle the squish area squeezes the air and fuel into the more compact combustion chamber so as to be more easily ignited by the spark plug while also increasing the turbulent motion of the air and fuel so that upon ignition the air and fuel burn more completely and energy extracted from the fuel air mixture is maximized. During the exhaust cycle, the squish area and smaller combustion chamber improves exhaust gas scavenging by forcing the exhaust gases nearer the open exhaust valve as the piston stroke reaches top dead center. A closed combustion chamber head used with a zero decked block is good for at least 20 ft/lbs of torque on a street engine. With a 0.070” gap between the piston and cylinder head at top dead center, the fuel/air/exhaust gases are not completely squeezed into the combustion chamber, the fuel and air left behind during the compression cycle are actually shielded from the flame front during ignition and remain partially unburned, which reduces the energy extracted from the fuel air mixture and increases hydrocarbon emissions. In a similar manner, the exhaust gases left behind in the squish area during the exhaust cycle are shielded from the exhaust valve and exhaust scavenging is reduced. Exhaust gases left behind in the cylinder reduce the cylinder area available for fresh fuel & air that are drawn into the cylinder during the intake cycle. So unless a short block is “decked” to reduce the clearance between the cylinder head and piston dome, a closed chamber head’s only value is that of increasing the motors compression ratio, it could be argued that an open chamber head can extract more power under this situation (i.e. if a block is not zero decked), as long as the motor’s compression ratio is adequate for the fuel and camshaft being used.

your friend on the PIBB, George

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
Yeah, but that is one case where you hope it blows up so you can put something nice in it's place.

Ha, it's still a Delorean! LOL,

Gary

True Gary, even with a 900 Gigawatt flux capacitor and a Mr. Fussion power supply, it is still just a DeLorean.

Kevin,

You and I must have been typing at the same time this AM. Sorry I missed your post earlier this AM.

You are welcome, I'm glad you've found the advice you're getting helpful. This topic has had a lot of views, we've apparently got everybody's attention! lol.....

Your old school mechanic likes the iron heads because he "knows" them, he knows how to set them up & make power with them. He feels he'd have to start a whole new learning curve with the alloy head. In reality that isn't true, he can just bolt them on, no porting necessary to make over 400 bhp like you must with the iron heads. But some folks don't handle change well, and there's nobody more cantankerous & opinionated than an old mechanic, I know. If he knows Clevelands then you keep him. Again, it seems you've made good choices.

Yes I've done a little automotive & motorcycle work for others, built a few engines. I have the aptitude, got started real young. I've dealt with people about modifying their cars & engines. If you & I had been talking in person rather than on the internet, I would have really grilled you about budget & how you intend to use the car. Its very important that a mechanic & customer see eye to eye before any work begins.

With a stroker crank, roller cam & alloy heads, I think you are underestimating the torque/bhp you'll be making with your combo. You should be able to hit the 500 ft/lbs range. At 500 ft/lbs I strongly recommend you do a half fill with hard block. Do as much of the manual block prep as you can before hot tanking. Then hot tank the block, afterwards do the half fill with hard block (up to the bottom of the water pump passages). Let that cure for at least 30 days, then finish the machining work (align boring, decking, boring & honing). Your mechanic should know to do the boring & honing with the caps torqued in place and boring plates torqued to the decks. The hard block squeezes the cylinder walls so tightly it distorts them, it's imperitive that you hard block prior to beginning the machine work.

The cylinder walls of the C block are thin & have a tendency to split at power levels in the 500 bhp range & above. The hard block supports the cylinder wall much higher up along the outside, makes them considerably stiffer. As a side benefit, the cylinder walls flex less, ring seal is improved, and your engine should produce another 20 ft/lbs of torque. The draw back, oil temps tend to run 5 to 10 degrees hotter, but that is really not that much of a drawback. If you're going to track race or open road race your car, you should run an oil cooler anyway, which will more than compnsate.

I'm sure girdles are available if you or your mechanic asks around. I purchased one earlier this year from a Canadian named Jadeo Persad, he had several of them at the time. You may contact him & ask if he has any remaining at: goygoy3@yahoo.com. Tell him I referred you. Its a nice piece, it interferes a bit with the Armando pan, but a little grinding fixes that. Clevelands were so popular in racing for so many years, there are all sorts of race parts laying on shelves all around the country, its a matter of finding the mechanic or racer with the parts on the shelf collecting dust. Texas is a big state for auto racing, should be lots of stuff on shelves all over your state.

I am in the same boat as you regarding Clevors, I have too many C parts on the shelf. I keep banging the drum on the internet, for the manufacturers to read, that we need a good aftermarket C block, in iron to keep the price down. SJ performance will be manufacturing one in alloy, but its an expensive SOB.

your friend on the PIBB, George

Goerge,

I guess the hard block fill Does or does not affect Water temp. What is the weight added, oprox.
If I could find an aussy block what would be the cost?

Thanks, Kevin

Kevin,

The hard block does not affect water temp, the weight gain is minimal, as you are displacing coolant, the weight gain will amount to the difference in weight between the 2 materials.

Not all Australian blocks are good ones. Most are thin wall castings identical to the blocks cast in the US. The later Aussie blocks have a different size distributor hole & aren't viable as a US replacement. Ford had a small batch (or batches) of special blocks (reports quote only 200 blocks from the first casting) cast in Australia and distributed them to the race teams, NASCAR, drag racing etc. I've read that they were cast of a higher strength iron alloy, I can't verify that. These blocks had full width bulkheads & pan rails, a bit more material around the cylinder walls, the one I've seen had siamese bores, but that was an exception, perhaps even an experiment (I used to think they were all siamese because the one I saw was). The blocks were also checked for core shift of the cylinders prior to shipment to the US so only those with the most uniform cylinder wall thickness became the actual NASCAR blocks. The rejects with too much core shift were placed into production vehicles in Australia, so a NASCAR block locted in Australia has doubtful value. The NASCAR blocks did not crack under hard use. these blocks show up from time to time used, but I've never asked anybody how much they've had to spend to acquire one.

Other "sketch" and experimental parts, including blocks, show up on the market, you'll find them on e-bay. I don't know much about these parts other than that they exist. The block must be judged by how ready it is for use (fully machined?), how worn out it is, does it address the Clevelands problem areas like the NASCAR blocks (i.e. thicker bulkheads & pan rails). Buyer beware. Just because it is a special, non production, part doesn't necessarily mean it is any better.

your block head friend on the PIBB, George