Air cleaner help.

K&N makes a specific air cleaner for the 48 IDA Weber carbs.

I'm not sure that the throttle bodies you have are the same as those carbs?

IF I suppose you are using the HALL PANTERA Weber intake then I suppose they must be the same center to center dimensions?

I would think that the filter for them would fit yours.The filters are serviced separately.

Check this one out. See if it helps anything?

http://www.knfilters.com/searc...ct.aspx?prod=56-1210

It may be that the baseplate for your TB are unique and or custom made.

I had a set that I sold. I can confirm that they did not have the overlap issue that you now have.


The information on that page indicates that these filters are red. That may be a mis-listing, i.e., "in error".

The picture they show is the filter I had. It is not red and the ones I had (a set of four) were all black like the picture.

I think these are the filters that you need?

Do you have a picture of the entire assembly put together on the engine?

quote:

My car has ITB's with EFI, so it looks like it has Webers, 2 rows of sexy velocity stacks.

Do you have a picture of just the filter base and the EFI system?

quote:

I've found that the air cleaners are short, and when installed, cover half of the four corner stacks, literally. Each air cleaner needs to be 2" longer to reach around and fit the air cleaner bases properly so the air cleaners don't cover half of four of the stacks……I get part # A131A6 on the air cleaner itself.

When you say “air cleaners” you mean the filter element, correct?....Not the Filter base and lid. If the base and lid happen to be those that Pantera Performance sold with their IR EFI systems, they required a custom (diameter) size K&N element. Dennis use to buy them in a large enough quantity to make it somewhat sensible….but it’s not practical to buy a pair. You can get K&N to make a custom height but not much interest in custom diameters especially for a pair. If this is so, the easiest thing to do is buy a larger circumference element of the proper width and height you need, then cut and splice it to the new circumference. I’ve done it many times and will email a multi-slide pdf how to file to you if you wish.

Best,
K

It's lookimg more and more like I'm going to need to modify these filters to fit.

Especially at the prices I saw for the elements in that link, which were 1/3 the length I needed, I'll cut the filer, plasidip the ends, and wire and spacer into make them fit properly.

I'm done spending money on this car right now. It's putting me in tne poorhouse.

Today I spent $75 on tools I needed, and $50 to my friend who helped me. I hope I have 2 dollars left by the time Snow White gets running.

Most of the K&N Elements in the size range that could be adapted are $45-$50 each and available online. Once purchased they are washable and if handled properly very long life.

K

That is the exact same air filter setup I have, but the filters are short.

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
That is the exact same air filter setup I have, but the filters are short.

Not quite. The filter gland is a different perimeter so it accepts a standard diameter K&N filter element which is available in multiple heights. Also, the center two pockets for the velocity stacks on the bottom of the filter base in the filter assembly pictured are on different centers because the Hall IDA intake has a unique distance between the center two barrels on each side. It's not a lot (somewhere around .100"-.150" IIRC) but enough that the bases wont interchange because the v-stacks wont seat in the pockets.

I don't know the origins of why this is so, but I do know it is so. If you do the layout work to determine how to center the Weber IDA barrel spacing on 4 3/8" sbf cylinder centerlines, you'll discover this unique dimension causes slight asymmetry of the four central runners on the intake compared to the four outer runners. If you were hand porting the intake you wouldn't notice this but if you were developing a step-over ball end mill CNC program to transition the round IDA openings to the rectangular port window on a sbf cylinder head, you would be expecting each pair of IDA runners to be mirror images of each other.....and on the Hall intake they are not. Ask me how I know.

Ever get the feeling you're standing on trampled ground?

Best,
K

It is all because everything is based upon the original IDA dimensions.


I think the reason that the 46IDF then the 46, the the 48 IDA's were made as twin throats vs making one single four throat carb with the correct center to center bores to fit the SB Ford is a simple answer.

The throttle shafts on the carbs twist very easily. If you had one single long throttle shaft for each single "Weber" Inline 4 barrel, the end loading of the throttle would quickly have twisted enough so that it the throttle plate at the opposite end would be twisted hopelessly out of sync.

How the Porsche version 46-3 IDA's for the 911 S, three barrel carbs actually survive and function I don't know.



Did it ever occur to Weber to use a hardened steel shaft? I would have to presume, yes, but what the reluctance on that was, I don't know?

I do know that on the Ford with the four 48IDA's, you MUST actuate the throttles from the center of the assemblies and not the far end of the assembly.



It could also have been that Weber felt one single inline 4v was too specialized to the Fords and there wouldn't have been enough product demand for it, whereas dual throats ganged together was more of a modular/universal product?

The spacing evolved too being what was necessary at the time to install all of the operating hardware such as jets and emulsion tubes.



Sure, Ford accomplished that with the Autolite Inlines but their total approach was different...AND they weren't stubborn Italians?

As a result, you cast the manifold to mate the IDA's to the intake ports of the engine. If you look at some of the variations of the castings particularly on the 289/Boss 302 I clearly see that was somewhat of an frustrating engineering exercise for sure.



The Cleveland version of the manifold is actually a much better functioning manifold because you have a 9.2" deck height vs the tiny 8.0 or whatever on the 289/302 block.

The Cleveland manifold at least somewhat seems to recognize the "desirable" carb to valve runner length to work as a ram tune a little? I don't see where that effect exists on the 289 manifolds at all. Those ports are too short to give the effect?



Dan Jones was talking about that number. It is entered into his software "hp computer" calculation now. I want to say it is a minimum of 4.5".

The "Pantera Weber" manifold seems to incorporate that in the castings? Halls is a copy of the Detomaso manifold which is said was originally developed and built by "Holman-Moody" and sold or given to Detomaso?

That part of the history of the "Pantera Weber" manifold is still undocumented but unless you make your own intake manifold ( ) you are stuck with all of that to work with.

Well, I'm stuck with short air cleaners that cover half of the four corner stacks.

I'll try calling KN before cutting the ones I have up and modifying them.

Maybe theymake a set that's like 2" longer.

Ooy! Kids!

Chances are the air cleaners that YOU have are the ones that IPSCO made for just about every Pantera shop out there?

http://www.ipsco.org/Pantera.htm

Try their web site first. Then call them if you have too.

For some inexplicable reason you have the wrong air filters on the right "air cleaners".

The tops and the bottoms that you have were made in consideration of what air filters were available. Not some Phantom that never did exist. There is an K&N filter they were made for. You just ain't got it and I just don't know the part number.

If you are interested, there is probably another 80 t0 100 hp that is hiding in that engine if you run the stacks naked?

The air cleaner assemblies really offer no special advantages. In fact they are cumbersome as all heck. They even partially block your rear view and the only thing they are even marginally good for is keeping the water out of the stacks when you wash the car.

Call IPSCO. Describe the air cleaners you have or even text or email them pictures of the tops and bottoms that you have.

They very likely will say, "yep, we made 'em". Then there is your window of opportunity, just say, "I need new air filters for them that fit right", well considering all the aspects of recent discussions here, maybe say "I need the correct air filters". Stay away from using the term right.

They might misinterpret that to mean you don't need the left side air filter too?

Hall probably has the filters separately also?

http://hallpantera.com/cgi-bin...ntera-inc&item=22776

I called K&N, and the part numbers on the filters were just mold numbers, but the lady was able to identify what I had.

They are round filters that have been bent and formed to fit (badly).

I got a couple part #'s of filters that are slightly larger in diameter, but 1/2" thicker, so at worst I'll have to find some longer taper headed all bolts to make the larger filters work.

I would LOVE to run the car without air cleaners, there is nothing sexier than 8 vertical velocity stacks sticking up out the top of a V8, but I'm afraid of sucking dirt and debris into the engine.

The back of the car is already shaped like a diffuser, and my AC is gone so I just have the wire mesh screen, which with the negative pressure formed by the shape of the car at speed I suspect will suck in all kinds of engine damaging debris.

There is no aerodynamic issue with running open stack on a Pantera at all. It's very common.

There are oval air filters made by K&N. I don't think you researched this enough.

Did you call IPSCO in Colorado? You should.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

The information on that page indicates that these filters are red. That may be a mis-listing, i.e., "in error".

The picture they show is the filter I had. It is not red and the ones I had (a set of four) were all black like the picture.

They will become red once oiled, and you are supposed to use them oiled, so, yes, K&N filters are "red"... And in general, they are sold pre-oiled, thus "red" too :-) They sure will work without oil, but the oil increases the filter function.

So are you saying it's safe to run my Pantera with naked stacks/no air cleaners?

I have EFI, there's a small sensor mounted to one of the air cleaner base plates, (MAF?) will the car run without the air cleaners in place?

I'm planning on just cutting the pieces I have now and inserting spacers, so they fit the mounts properly and don't cover hald of four of the stacks.

Hell, even a couple layers of duct tape over the open spots would work, at least temporarily.

My plan is to wire/sew in plastic spacers into the open spaces, so I don't have 2" openings on each side of my air cleaners.

I'll check the other places you told me about and see if I can't just find the proper fitting air cleaners.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
There is no aerodynamic issue with running open stack on a Pantera at all. It's very common.

There are oval air filters made by K&N. I don't think you researched this enough.

Did you call IPSCO in Colorado? You should.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug: Ooy! Kids! Chances are the air cleaners that YOU have are the ones that IPSCO made for just about every Pantera shop out there? ..Try their web site first. Then call them if you have too……… Call IPSCO. Describe the air cleaners you have or even text or email them pictures of the tops and bottoms that you have. They very likely will say, "yep, we made 'em". Then there is your window of opportunity, just say, "I need new air filters for them that fit right", well considering all the aspects of recent discussions here, maybe say "I need the correct air filters". Stay away from using the term right.
http://www.ipsco.org/Pantera.htm

Though Mark has made many, he has never made any Pantera IR EFI filters like that for anyone other Quella and me…and mine differ from Dennis’ in the manner I mentioned in the previous post. I have adapted mine for a few guys that wanted to use my version of the filter (which is also wider) for use on their IR EFI system based on the Hall intake, because they use standard K&N filters you can buy one at a time instead of being confronted with what Mike is now. Mark has never sold these (other than Quella/PPC) or even similar versions for Weber IDA Carbs to Hall nor any other Pantera vendor. He made one set of Weber IDA Carb filters for himself and the base is much more complex to interface with the IDAs…that’s it, and that’s still the case.

So if that is a filter base and lid were made by Mark (IPSCO), I know what it is. I say if, because the first thing that usually happened after Mark developed and made something nice was all the West coast shops reverse engineered it and locally sourced their own version. So if that happens to be the case, Mike’s filters could be just about anything, and I can’t help ya, other than the recommendation to splice the elements to proper size. That’s why I asked for a picture of Mikes EFI system. Odds are it is Quella’s, and if the velocity stacks nest nicely in those pockets, odd’s are even greater this is such because the IPSCO v-stacks also have some unique dimensional features

quote:

The tops and the bottoms that you have were made in consideration of what air filters were available.

Yes, according to Mark, the K&N filter element may have had its origins for use in a similar Weber IDA filter assembly, but it wasn’t for IPSCO or Quella. They just chose to use this element and there was a reason for it and it’s the same reason the filter element gland in the filter base breaks into the radius on the vstack opening



….and that’s because the passenger side filter assembly becomes too long and hits the back window when you use taller elements or mount them on top of TWM throttle bodies. Same thing happens on IDA Carbs. Dimensionally they could make it all work with that filter element which has long since gone obsolete. All this was more than twelve years ago, and when I spoke to K&N engineering then, they declined to disclose the original purpose for the filter, but were quite clear about it being unavailable for quite some time and IIRC, didn’t want to talk about it unless it was a minimum order of 50-100 and still ridiculous price and lead time. So you’re SOL unless some other manufacturer started making a comparable element.

The other thing you need to know about these K&N filter elements is they’re just round elements that have no wire reinforcement so they are flexible enough to be formed into ovals and other shapes and that’s why they’re popular for making custom filter assemblies. They also get a bit flimsy in taller heights because of this. You may think all you need to do is calculate the circumference of your oval and buy a round filter of the same circumference. However, when you bend them they stretch more on the OD then they compress on the ID and the cross section also distorts, so they won’t fit the filter gland like you expect if that’s all you do. All of this is the kind of stuff that’s learned by those who actually have done it instead of just having read about it on the internet.

quote:

The air cleaner assemblies really offer no special advantages. In fact they are cumbersome as all heck. They even partially block your rear view and the only thing they are even marginally good for is keeping the water out of the stacks when you wash the car…… The air cleaner assemblies really offer no special advantages.

True, no performance advantage; no air filters do….it’s more about minimizing the loss associated with having clean air for you engine. But Mike here’s some good advice, run open stacks on the street at your own peril pal, and if you think you current experience is unpleasant just wait until your engine ingests a piece of debris large enough to bend a valve and then see what you have on your hands. There was a reason Roger was pointing that out all that garbage the engine compartment collected. If I was you I’d fix the filter element because as you’ve noted you’re wasting your time reading plugs and tuning with this condition. I use E-3710 (2” tall). It’s been so long I don’t recall, but even though they may be sufficient circumference, they may are a wider cross section and if so, not useful to spliced and be used for your hardware.

quote:

In fact they are cumbersome as all heck. They even partially block your rear view and the only thing they are even marginally good for is keeping the water out of the stacks when you wash the car.

I got tired of the filter assembly coming apart in my hands every time I took the filters off, so I made a simple mod that allows them to remain assembled when removed and would recommend you do the same. Just put a threaded insert into the base, and a ¼-20 stud through the threaded insert such that it sticks up into the filter interior far enough to screw the standoff on (locktite). It needs to protrude below the base far enough to slide the v-stack clamp on with a wing nut. After you get things stable, use either a ny-lock wing nut or drill a hole in the wing and safety wire it. On the rear view mirror part, just try to concentrate on what’s in front of you.






Best,
K

Mike, as I remember your intake (from Dennis Quella's Pantera Performance), it is a two-piece unit that bolts individually on each cylinder head, with a separate valley cover. Roger initially had problems holding a consistent idle speed, until he found that his aluminum heads and intakes were expanding enough with heat to pull on the cross-link attaching the right throttle body to the main cable. The fix was the custom steel center brace that sufficiently tied the two banks together so heat expansion would not pull on the right side throttles. So even if the brace is interfering with the custom air cleaners, do not remove it or the idle speed will creep from 900 to 1300 rpms as the engine gets warm. The spacing within each intake section is 'std' 48IDA Weber.

Sound advice Kelly, thanks. Experience counts a lot and that is what we are trying to share also. I did have a set sourced through Hall that used a one piece filter. Pretty sure there were K&N markings on them. No markings on the tops and bottoms.

I had a set of the four chrome K&N filters also. Sold those as well.

Like you said, it's been a while. B.D.(before documentation)

I got to the point that I was considering using sheet metal screws through the bottom plate to hold the filters in place. Didn't do it, decided to go another way with them and just sold them.


Both types were cumbersome to deal with if you needed a lot of access to the carbs. Often with Webers, there is a hot street jetting and then there is the "track jetting". You need easy access to the jetting and sometimes the throttle linkages.

The K&N's on my Webers right now are oiled and are not red. I just looked and it is K&N oil.
That's not an issue for me at all though. Just a point of interest.


It is a decision, difficult at times to make whether or not to run open stacks or not?
With Webers there is such a difference that the often the compromise is just to run screens.
That really isn't a noticeable difference to me. Screens on the Webers is a very reasonable compromise to me.



I never really thought about the reverse engineering issue, that's more for manufacturers vs. users, but I suppose that anyone with a mill, better with a cnc mill can make these out of billet and they all pretty much look the same?

It isn't exactly like I just read about this on the internet. Having said that though there are and have been a bunch of variations and I never had them all.



Risk is a decision every individual must make for themselves?

Mike do you wear your raincoat and galoshes when you drive? Ever have a Pantera heater hose go on you? Wear the insulated ones.



This way was simpler for me. These are K&N's and they are glued to the velocity stacks.
When I want to go on the track I just change the stacks to open with screens. See below v



These are oiled and they aren't red. Maybe a little pink if you look a certain way at them.

My cell phone camera didn't pick that up but it's not as sensitive to that as the Sony A1 is?

Oh, and yes, these filters are very noticeably restrictive compared to the screens.

The filters keep out dirt, not water though. The screens keep out squirrels, chipmunks and some larger animals that tried. No bats though. Not yet?


These filters are minimally in the way of servicing the carbs under any conditions. Just remove the velocity stacks which just entails removing the two nuts and clips.

I would also point out that SOME of these engineering decisions are dominated by aesthetics rather than function. Probably the trick is knowing which to let dictate the results?

Thanks for the tips guys. I found one good element, and I can use the other two to fab together another proper fitting one for the other side, so I'm set!

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by Panterror:


Best,
K

Sound advice Kelly, thanks. Experience counts alot and that is what we are trying to share also. I did have a set sourced through Hall that used a one piece filter. Pretty sure there were K&N markings on them. No markings on the tops and bottoms.

I had a set of the four chrome K&N filters also. Sod those too.

Like you said, it's been a while. B.D.(before documentation)

I got to the point that I was considering using sheet metal screws through the bottom plate to hold the filters in place. Didn't do it, decided to go another way with them and just sold them.

The K&N's on my Webers right now are oiled and are not red. I just looked and it is K&N oil.
That's not an issue for me at all though. Just a point of interest.


It is a decision, difficult at times to make whether or not to run open stacks or not?
With Webers there is such a difference that the compromise is just to run screens often.
That really isn't a noticeable difference to me. Screens on the Webers is a very reasonable compromise to me.



I never really thought about the reverse engineering issue, that's more for manufacturers vs. users, but I suppose that anyone with a mill, better with a cnc mill can make these out of billet and they all pretty much look the same?

It isn't exactly like I just read about this on the internet. Having said that though there are and have been a bunch of variations and I never had them all.



Risk is a decision every individual must make for themselves?

Mike do you wear your raincoat and galoshes when you drive? Ever have a Pantera heater hose go on you? Wear the insulated ones.

Hello Doug; When you mention..."That really isn't a noticeable difference to me".

What are you referring to?

I bring up this quote because in an earlier post you mentioned that utilizing air cleaners on your weber induction system results in a 80-100hp decrease...Mark

Thanks,

Roger mentioned that and warned me about it, and said do not touch or undo that brace.

During the whole 2 or so hours of driving enjoyment I've had with the car so far, the idle was just OK. It was sticky, took a blip to get it to drop sometimes. After removing the distributor, and seeing how sticky the advance system was, I think that is what was causing that. We'll see, because there's a spanking new distributor going in.

Everything from this point on about this car is going to be done right.

I will not run this car without air cleaners.

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Mike, as I remember your intake (from Dennis Quella's Pantera Performance), it is a two-piece unit that bolts individually on each cylinder head, with a separate valley cover. Roger initially had problems holding a consistent idle speed, until he found that his aluminum heads and intakes were expanding enough with heat to pull on the cross-link attaching the right throttle body to the main cable. The fix was the custom steel center brace that sufficiently tied the two banks together so heat expansion would not pull on the right side throttles. So even if the brace is interfering with the custom air cleaners, do not remove it or the idle speed will creep from 900 to 1300 rpms as the engine gets warm. The spacing within each intake section is 'std' 48IDA Weber.