My buddy has a fab shop and he would consider building us parts if there was a response or need.
He built me these coolant tanks with the vent mod and they came in around 580 bucks and the next set would be better as revisions and requests are applied.
He is a journeyman power plant welder and he built a beautiful fuel tank for my boat. He is willing to build a few fuel tanks if there is a need.
I have a spare fuel tank here that I will take down to him.
Stay tuned...
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Nice job on those tanks!
Those are pretty sweet.
Im not in the market (mine are done), but I’m impressed.
As a suggestion... he could add a bead around the two main ports on the swirl tank to ensure the hoses stay on.
A bead roller would be best, but I’m not sure it would work on that heavy gauge aluminum tube.
Not criticizing - it’s beautiful work!
Rocky
I don't need a gas tank yet...but those coolant tanks are tempting and I would think there is a market for them, considering the amount of times they come up on here as a topic.
Yes we thought about the beading and actually he was going to do it on these tanks both for the hoses and a no slip bead for mounting the tanks. I was supposed to mock it up and bring them back but I stopped by there, they were sitting there done, so I snatched them and now I have my car back!...lol...
He also noted that instead of tigging in the male AN we should tig in a threaded bung so the port is damage serviceable, and we may clock the vent ports differently. These are all REV 01 items...
I wish I had a picture of my boat tank man, all SS tigged and baffled inside. Love it...
So, chime in, don't be shy... Lay it on me. What revisions do you guys see?
Stay tuned you guys...
Reference water inlets and outlets:
When we built water tanks for our race cars we would start with heavy wall aluminum tubing that had the correct ID and then machine the OD to the appropriate OD leaving a bead in place. This allowed us to leave a small ramp at the outside so the hose could slip on easier. The inside of the bead had basically a 90 degree cut to help retain the hose. We never popped a hose off or had leaks. Keep in mind that most common grades of aluminum oxidize (corrode) easily.
Great tech... Thank you Mike!
These tanks are 1/4" wall so they won't be going anywhere for a while...lol...
BTW, Nice work. Welding bungs instead of male AN fittings is a good idea. AN fittings and hose ends are very durable as long as they are kept clean and lightly lubed when assembled. Bungs might be good so users have choices to which type of fittings they can use.
Thanks Mike, he has some hours under the hood.
This is a rough set for me real quick. We are looking at it and may do a run of ten sets. The NPT bungs will let guys put 45's or whatever they like. On my rough set they are fixed -6 so I have sweeping bends in alum hard line. It could be tightened up and routed to suit with a variety of line material with just the NPT. Options for everyone's car....
When I modified my coolant tanks, I installed (4) bungs in the header tank.
The two additional fittings are used for bleed lines attached to the rear of each cylinder head.
Also, I put the return line to the water pump in the bottom of the tank, so the
tank could be 'clocked' in any orientation without affecting the location of this fitting.
Mike
Yeah, nice...
PLT, on the subject of fuel tanks:
Since you've got a spare gas tank on hand, can you measure the diameter of the hole for the fuel gauge sending unit?
I'm investigating some aftermarket sending units, and would like to verify that they would fit into that hole.
I'd rather not remove my sending unit at the moment, since we still have a few more driving days here in New England...
Another design to consider is to use spun aluminum tank heads (ends) or machined heads. Would be practical if you built a quantity. I don't remember where we sourced the spun aluminum heads.
http://www.boydwelding.com/ for some parts and good ideas.
@mp, I would also compare the bolt patterns. When I got Hall's stainless tank, as I recall neither my former "stock" sending unit nor the universal sending unit I was converting to fit the Hall tank, I had a friend helping who is highly skilled in welding, fluid mechanics, etc. who got me squared away. Also with the bottom drain which the Hall tank drain did not match what I had researched in advance to be the stock plug size for my year. But my first P-car having been a very early pushbutton, mismatches never surprise me. FWIW.
http://www.boydwelding.com/ for some parts and good ideas.
Mike, I just ordered some bungs from them this morning....lol.. They are a few miles away from me...
PLT, on the subject of fuel tanks:
I will dig the tank out...
Nice work on the aluminum coolant tanks. Nice work on yours as well Mike P.
What type of material are you and your friend thinking about building the gas tanks in?
What type of material are you and your friend thinking about building the gas tanks in?
I ASSume SS...
@mpaschetto posted:I'm investigating some aftermarket sending units, and would like to verify that they would fit into that hole.
Wilkinson has had a run of reproduction fuel senders made, also a Fiat X/19 fuel sender works, but at this point probably rarer than the Pantera one! If you do a PI site search you'll likely find some references to aftermarket units, I know some folks have done it.
@joules posted:Wilkinson has had a run of reproduction fuel senders made, also a Fiat X/19 fuel sender works, but at this point probably rarer than the Pantera one! If you do a PI site search you'll likely find some references to aftermarket units, I know some folks have done it.
Thanks Joules, I'll check it out...
Larry Stock's PPC in Carson City has about 20 fuel tank senders in stock last time I was there. Note there are two varieties but only the later one is available and is a true bolt-in for all tears of Panteras. This is the one with the built-in fuel-out line- in stock size only, so for big-power engines, recommend replacing the 5/16"OD line with a 3/8"OD.
Good job on the water tanks- I did the same offset mounting on mine- it promotes swirling and thus separates air. But why not include a pressure cap on the fill/swirl tank?
why not include a pressure cap on the fill/swirl tank?
We can do that. You said "include" so ... two pressure caps?
The reason I asked is, the overflow tank (the long one) does not normally have a pressure cap. Being open to the atmosphere in order to work as designed, it only gets a similar looking non-sealing cover to prevent splashing overflow coolant. The short swirl tank has the only pressure cap. Unless the car has a non-stock cooling system routing, or possibly the short tank is mounted low and that AN fitting connects to a hose going to a remote rad-cap somewhere convenient.
Which is how my homebuilt system works. I fabricated a duplicate outside-fill cap under a hinged cover in the right gill, for access to a remotely mounted radiator cap connected to a low mount swirl tank. Our car is an L model w/stock outside left-side fueling, so no need to open the deck lid for either refueling OR filling the radiator. Been rigged this way since the '90s and is very convenient. FWIW, my stock water temp sensor is mounted in the block for more accuracy, like millions of front-engine Fords.
Thanks Boss...
Well, I stopped by my buddies shop and it looks like he is willing to do a run of ten sets. We are discussing revisions so if you have any ideas post them up.... We value all opinions in order to get it right.
He is also intrigued by the fuel tanks, he wants to see my spare tank.
Stay tuned....
Boss - on your right hand fill cover did you just biscuit cut the fill hole through the bat wing cover on an angle and then just use a standard hinge for the mounting of it ? Or is there such a beast as a hinged RHS access cover for the Pantera ? Just interested?
I didn't think of hinging the whole gill, Percy- that would have been simpler! The first one of those I saw was on Guy Trigaux GT-4 racer #2860 and it looked slick! I didn't want to cut my stock die-cast right gill, so decades ago I took some molding silicone and made a mold of the stock right gill, then cast a duplicate from fiberglas mat & epoxy. (Nowadays, you could print a gill.) Then I cut a 3-1/2" hole in the plastic gill and copied the stock left side fuel gill's hinge design in half-hard aluminum. I made a large 1 gallon aluminum swirl tank & bolted it down on the end of the right rocker panel. I ran a welded pipe with a rad-cap from the new swirl tank up to the proper area. All this was for service convenience with a stock look, and its worked well for us over the years. Few even notice the hinged cap.
Later, I modified a scrap Aviaid 10-qt oil pan for a mid-pan dipstick that reaches up between #3 & 4 header tubes and terminates in that same area under the gill opening. So I can check oil AND water level without opening the decklid, and along with modern small dia. deck struts, it clears the whole engine corner for much better #3 & 4 spark plug access. A 351-W dipstick & guide tube from a van is extremely long and can be cut down to fit almost anything. That allowed me to remove the stock top routing of the Pantera dipstick & clean up that area, too. Incidentally, all this is a copy of the positioning that Porsche uses on the mid-engined Boxter for their remote radiator cap and oil dipstick.
One of these days I'll install the modified pan and write an illustrated article for the POCA Newsletter....
The so-called second swirl tank is simply an overflow- a catch tank by another name. I use a small plastic tank tucked up as far away from the header heat as possible and a 12 oz beer car as an aux overflow for track days. Non need to be elaborate for an overflow bucket.
PLT-1, that sounds like a fair price if he's using sheet stainless (321 or better) for the gas tanks. Note that there are TWO different Pantera fuel tank designs that do NOT interchange in any way. The first is for pushbuttons and very early '71s. In those cars the upper subframe is totally different from all other Panteras and their tanks which snuggle close to that upper frame rail only fit early '71s (less than 300 cars). The second design is what's shown on your post and I believe fit all production Panteras including GT5 & GT-5s.
I have dropped off my fuel tank for an eval at the fab shop. He did not look that impressed by the tank and seemed to be confident he can make a nicer piece that would pass DOT certification. I will report back as things develop.
If anyone has a specific requirement for a tank we would like to add provisions for all situations so the tanks can be an option for anyone.
For instance,
a FI car with return line pick up
a better more common sending unit, we can move the baffles a little as not to interfere with the sender, etc...
Lay it on me... what does this community need, what does this community want for a tank?
If the choice was mine, I would spec aftermarket gas tanks as follows-
1- no heavier than stock- which are pretty light for steel
2- corrosion resistant- thin ss or aluminum
3- sender as-stock, with a separate bung for EFI/carb return line
And if it were just for me, the best Pantera fuel system I ever saw was on a Euro Gr-3 street racer as sold in Europe '71-about '79. It had two 10 or 11 gallon tanks, one on each side with a 2-1/2" OD connecting line & vent running in front of the crank pulley above the radiator hoses. There's far too much weight on the left side of our U.S cars so this better balances the machine. Stock, 22 gallons of fuel weighs 150 lbs! VERY difficult to cross-balance such a car with driver AND full tank! Two small tanks can be simpler to build than one big one, as well.
The headers on the left side are constrained by the tall stock fuel tank, requiring a heat shield. Dual tanks do not need shields. The Italian fuel sensor is fine as is and the stock size access hole allows adding a stock Ford TBI fuel pump to the end of the sender ass'y. Inside mounted electric pumps run cooler and much quieter. All modern EFI cars since the 80's have inside the tank pumps. TBI runs at 12 psi so it can be regulated down to 6-7 psi for carbs, unlike EFI that runs at 48-55 psi & cannot be regulated down without overheating the pump. My two cents-
If I were to specify a custom STREET fuel tank it would be SS, light gauge (as Bosswrench said-as light as an original and corrosion resistant alloy) and have rolled stiffening ribs. Passivation may enhance the product (best to ask a metallurgist about that). I would include standard bungs and fittings and accommodate the stock sending unit. Since these are hand made I would have optional EFI provisions available including an in-tank fuel pump.
I'm with BW on the dual tanks. I have drawn up a two tank system for my build since the car has other mods. Don't know if I will live long enough to make it so.
If you build a quality SS twin tank setup, I'm in.
@bosswrench posted:It had two 10 or 11 gallon tanks, one on each side with a 2-1/2" OD connecting line & vent running in front of the crank pulley above the radiator hoses.
Why on Earth would such a HUGE connecting line be necessary?
Inquiring minds want to know... ;-)
@plt-1 posted:For instance,
a FI car with return line pick up
a better more common sending unit, we can move the baffles a little as not to interfere with the sender, etc...
Lay it on me... what does this community need, what does this community want for a tank?
YES - to the F.I. return port.
YES - to the aftermarket (custom for our application) sending unit.
YES - to stainless steel.
In my very preliminary design I have twin 10 gal tanks with a -16 line between them at the bottom and a -8 at the top for venting. The only possible issue I see with the -16 is a slower fill rate which should be OK for a street car.
I did see a car with a flat tank up front, but I have never seen a car with the two tank option. Of course it makes perfect sense.
Thank you gentlemen, post it if you think of it.... P-
So, just to clarify...
1. We are not moving the ignition components we are just nestling in the two smaller tanks and cross over tube.
2. This two tank system has low mounted cross over tube, pulls fuel level from one side.
3. a FI return line could be routed to the pass side.
4. a single roll over vent is all that is required.
5. The cross over tube shall be flexible fuel line so the system can be engine in serviced.
Are these all yes's ?
What else??....
I would suggest a drain plug still and a bung that will accept a larger than stock fuel line. Maybe that bung isnt required with an in tank pump, but a drain plug I still think is necessary. Reinforced so it doesn't risk damaging the tank like the stock one can.
The 2" or so balance tube between dual tanks needs only one fill position to fill both tanks at once, and one fuel pump to feed the engine. Less complication= fewer failures.
@bosswrench posted:The 2" or so balance tube between dual tanks needs only one fill position to fill both tanks at once...
Of course....I didn't think of that!
The lower (balance) hose between dual tanks doesn't need to 2" + unless you are building a race car where you need to fast fill. In either case the upper (vent) hose must also have enough flow for the displaced air. For a street car, safety must also be a priority. In case of a bad accident I would rather have a -16 line severed than a 2"+ line.
Arrange the tanks so the floor of the secondary tank (without the fuel pickup) is about 1" to 2" higher than the primary tank (with the fuel pickup). The primary tank will act like a sump and also have provisions for the sending unit. The top of the tanks should be level. You can also design a small sump into the secondary tank.
For use in a race car, dual tanks with a large lower (balance) hose will act somewhat like one big tank. Driving at a racetrack you are wearing a fire suite and have 15 to 20 seconds to get out (in case of an accident) plus emergency personnel near by. Sorry for the gloom. I know a bit about fire. I designed and developed fire and life safety equipment for over 30 years.
We did talk about the drain plug as these are hobby cars to a lot of guys and may sit. A robust drain is required...lol...
Good stuff....
Until y'all get around to pulling the engine, transaxle and old fuel tank out of the Pantera, to replace it with one of the much better aftermarket assemblies, have you had trouble getting the stock drain plug out of your OEM tank? I'm one of those unfortunate owners that got a car with the drain plug apparently corrosion-welded in place. We've owned #4366 for almost 40 years and even with all my tools and a heated shop, I've NEVER been able to remove the OEM drain plug!
The tank steel is so thin that putting a correct size socket and a breaker bar on, I can see the tank bottom begin to bend, ripple and distort enough that I'm afraid I'll literally tear the tank bottom open. But the plug stays in place (no leaks, though). So at this point I see two simple choices: drill the thing out from underneath & retap the threads, or try a friend's method with a big air ratchet. He sets the air pressure low enough that the tool just sits there and chatters away- he swears that after 4 or 5 minutes (with periodic air pressure adjustments), most ANY drain plug will come loose without tank damage. Me- I gave up after a few minutes of unbelievable noise from the 2-horse compressor and the air gun.
I don't like the idea of drilling under a tank with a half gallon or so of residual gas in it (from my siphoning efforts)- seems like when the drill bit STARTS to break thru and fuel comes dribbling out onto my running ELECTRIC drill, I'm not in a healthy place.... Anyone got a better suggestion that worked for you? Not theory but that actually worked?
J DeRyke
Same exact experience. I leaned on my drain plug and the bottom of my tank started to distort. I left it alone.
