Building an economical 351C

That sounds like a box stock CJ. I personally would use closed chambered heads on it rather then the open chamber and use port stuffers to crispen it up some.
Other then that it shouldn't be any kind of a problem at all.

Dear Mr. Rapier. I think I may be running pretty close to that right now. At least I was before my timing moved on me. I bought a brand new CJ spec Cleveland. I already had an Edlebrock performer intake, which is probably ten or fiveteen bucks used on ebay, I used the stock (for my car) 650 cfm Holley double Pumper. 4777-4. I have always had Hall big bore headers and exaust on my car, for which I am truly greatfull to some previous wowner, and an Accel distributer. Oh and a K&N air filter. When I was first breaking in the engine I was getting just over 15 miles per gallon. I was babying it pretty much though so that may explain it. And I think the timing has gotten slightly retarded because the mechanic wouldn't listen to me and the timing chain may have streached just a little bit. So I think if I am not at 300 HP I am just off a skoosh. The rating from the factory was something like 235 or something, I can't remember now and they have changed the way they do that now, but I have a highly calibrated ass, and it tells me pretty darn close what Horsepower a car has. I would say I am right around 300 to maybe 330. I did have an almost 400 Hp engine though and it wasn't just my ass that said so. It was other peoples asses too.

DT, how often do you have your ass recalibrated?
That must hurt?

Guys have been doing $6000 strokers around here with about 400HP. For a little bit extra you get whole lot more.

I have an Edelbrock Performer 4V an a Holley 600CFM with vacuum secondaries. This is an 1850 though I've change the secondaries from a metering plate to a jet block so I can change the jetting. I have 64 primaries and 66 (maybe 68) secondaries.
I get less than 10mpg regardless of how fast or slow I drive. A short afternoon cruise of say 100 miles costs me $70, which is a lot of beer.

I'm heading the rolling road for some diagnostics as soon as I got some spare cash because there may be something wrong that I have yet to find.

I've noticed that the UK magazines quote the standard GTS at 13-14mpg imperial which is 10.8 to 11.6mpg US which isn't much better than I get, hence the question.

I was thinking about manifolds, timing, vacuum advance distributor, porting, cam etc. My ass hasn't got the hang of Ford V8's yet it's still calibrated for Sunbeam engines.

Yes that seems about right. When I had my old GTS engine the best I could get was twelve miles per gallon. But it was almost one hundred horsepower more too, so I didn't complain. Most times I was only getting eight with it.
You nay want to check your distributor timing. Especialy if your engine is running hot. There is a thread here where I asked about the car dieseling or running on after I turned the switch off. George said it may be timing and by golly I am betting almost anything he is right. Because my milage has fallen way off again and it is not running nearly as good as it did. I am going to check it this weekend. Unfortunetly to check the timing you have to remove the interior of the car. Most of it anyway. So it is not as easy as on your Sunbeam.

quote:

DT, how often do you have your ass recalibrated?
That must hurt?

Doug, it took about thirty years of driving like an idiot, so I don't like to mess too much with the calibration. Why mess with something that ain't broke???

Yup been there done that (and found that my garage isn't wide enough to get the firewall trim out the door).
I've had the dizzy off and set the points gaps on the Mallory Dual Point. They are now set by the book - and to the same setting.
This improved the running and stopped it pinging at 120mph (on the rolling road, obviously, ahem ).
I've got the static timing at 10 degrees BTDC - though after reading George's post I'm thinking of increasing this to 16.
Very interesting being inside the car with alternator fan spinning a few inches from your nose whilst you point a timing light at the crank pulley.

Would a vacuum advance dizzy be worthwhile?

I would say that it is possible to get it into the 13-15mpg territory on a cruise.
I would think that if you can average 12mpg you are dialed in correctly.
I am in NY state. I just paid $3.119. For you guys in Europe that is cheap I understand. This is up from 2.899 just last week.
NY State required the use of ethanol in pump gas since 1/1/04.
Since that date milage on all of my vehicles has dropped 20%.
10mpg on the Pantera is good. The Webers are actually better on gas then the Holley. They average about 11mpg.
As an "interesting aside", I do recall that the first time that "we" got a big increase in electric charges, the local supplier ConEd petitioned the Energy Commision to raise the rates a corresponding amount equal to what people had cut back on thier electrical usage.
They claimed that they could not stay in business with the gross drop in revenue.
OK, allright you say? They were granted the rate increase by the NY State energy commision for that reason.
Bottom line, energy costs what it costs. I think that if you are getting 8-10mpg on the Pantera, you must adjust your outlook and say that is the price of glory.
If the sun and the air could be taxed they would do it. Just be glad that you can still drive the car at all. I assure you that Green Peace would not appreciate your Pantera in the slightest.

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Very interesting being inside the car with alternator fan spinning a few inches from your nose whilst you point a timing light at the crank pulley.

Would a vacuum advance dizzy be worthwhile?

I have heard of guys driving with the cover off while another cranks the distrubutor to dial in more advance for them. So while it is scary standing still, I imagine it is much worse while driving.
I think you are supposed to unhook the vacum line to your distributer while you set your static timing.

quote:

I assure you that Green Peace would not appreciate your Pantera in the slightest.

But of course. Panteras and SUVs are the only things that can cause global warming.

i don't use a timing light. I just twist the distributor untill i get the fastest idle and test run it. Calibrated ass as Dethom calls it. Then if it runs on or desiels, I twist a little more. if it spark knocks under load. go back the other way. When you get it good lock it down. george talked about static timing this way.

...properly calibrated, a 'Vacumn Advance Distributor' will increase MPG on a Street Driven Engine...

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Originally posted by DeTom:

quote:

I assure you that Green Peace would not appreciate your Pantera in the slightest.

But of course. Panteras and SUVs are the only things that can cause global warming.

The bigest threat to our planet is population. The charts show we run out of food and water long before we destroy the earth. Leading threat to earth is the grean peace parents with 14 kids!

That is self correcting though Gary. Too many people, they starve or have a war, die off a little, then start screweing again and it all just keeps going. That is of course until the whole planet gets smashed into little microscopic pieces when we get hit by a humongous ball of frozen methane on December 21st, 2012.

DT are you having premonitions now? It isn't about feelings in your ass or anything is it? Are you sure it's going to be methane?

Well it isn't pure metane. It has a few dust specs in it, but mostly methane. About the size of Jupiter, but not nearly as dense. It is on a colision course with our sun and we will get in the way. Oh well, fun while it lasted.

Methane,huh DT? Isn't that "swamp gas"? Isn't swamp gas associated with certain types of people getting dillusional? Aren't those the types of stories that we hear from the mobil home people and read about them in the National Inquirer, such as "Aliens came and stole my husbands skin"?
DT, is there a swamp close to you?

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
Oh well, fun while it lasted.

You damn right. Drive these things now. Who knows how long the good times will last!

G

I love the school teachings from our public school system. My daughter brings home essay assignments...."Explain 3 reasons why we are contributing to global warming". It is shoved down their throats that we are the cause yet one of the lessons on a small side chart shows that the climat has heated up extremely extremely fast every xmillion years. They can't trully explain it or completely understand it but from the data they have over the last couple hundred years the earth is begining it's natural heat spike.

Well I don't know about you but I think it has to do with this Mexican Food I've been eating.

quote:

is there a swamp close to you?

Heck no Doug. Just mountains. Tons and tons of mountains. And stills. And maryjawanna patches. Plenty of them.

So you mean to tell me that the blue smoke isn't from your exhaust? No wonder the UFO's follow you around?

They follow me around to check up on how I am doing.

quote:

Originally posted by Rapier:
...How to build a 351C for reliable street driving with modest power and good fuel economy. Target is at least 300bhp and at least 15 miles to a US gallon....

Derek, it CAN be done!

I have had Pantera owners tell me they get 20 mpg on the open road! Even my 8.0:1 '74 Cobra Jet motor gets 15 mpg on the open road with a carb & distributor that need rebuilding.

Here’s your shopping list:

1) Clevite 77 crank & rod bearings
2) New flat top FORDGED pistons
3) File to fit iron rings
4) Zero deck the block
5) Rollmaster timing chain
6) SPS, Milodon or ARP rod bolts
7) New or rebuilt balancer
8) Steel or aluminum flywheel, your choice
9) Dynamically balance the reciprocating assembly
10) Use your open chamber heads, resulting in a 9.0:1 compression ratio
11) Install new one piece stainless steel valves, 2.19” intakes, 1.71” exhausts
12) Ford Motorsport bolt down roller rocker arms #M-6564-C351
13) Head work (multi angle valve job, pocket clean up, exhaust port grinding)
14) Electronic ignition
15) Comp Cams XE 274 camshaft, springs, retainers, keepers, lifters
16) Custom length 3/8” pushrods
17) Holley 750 cfm, vacuum secondary carb on your existing intake manifold
18) Aviaid or Armando oil pan
19) Standard oil pump
20) Hi pressure relief spring, chrome moly oil pump shaft, Fram HP1 oil filter
21) Dyno tuning for carb & ignition

I don’t have any dyno time with this cam, it is a modern grind that hit the market long after I stopped building motors, but I can guarantee you this motor shall go north of 350 bhp if assembled caefully. The feedback on this cam is all good, it provides plenty of throttle response when you nail the gas pedal, yet it is docile around town with good drivability. The limiting factor to power production will be that damn GTS exhaust system. If in the future you wanted to explore making more power, the exhaust system will be the next item on the agenda. If the budget has a little more room, a good addition to this motor would be a Blue Thunder intake manifold. It would give you a bit more bhp above 5000 rpm, and extend the rpm range of the motor.

No stroker crank, no fancy rods, no expensive heads, no new intake manifold, no roller cam. Just a good rebuild, a little head work & a nice flat tappet hydraulic cam. This motor will probably run on lower than premium octane fuel too.

Your friend on the DTBB

I like your recommendations George.
Nice recommendation for a nice engine but don't forget a vacuum advance for the distributor. It's good for at least a couple of mpg.
If I might add this could be a good application for the Australian 2v iron heads.
You could substitute dished pistons for the flat tops and keep it around 9:1 compression.
I think the smaller ports could help on mileage a little. I'm wondering if a higher compression would help mileage too? Granted it may not be worth the tradeoff for the more expensive Premium fuel.
It's just a thought. Carry on hey.

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
Dear Mr. Rapier. I think I may be running pretty close to that right now. At least I was before my timing moved on me. I bought a brand new CJ spec Cleveland. I already had an Edlebrock performer intake, which is probably ten or fiveteen bucks used on ebay, I used the stock (for my car) 650 cfm Holley double Pumper. 4777-4. I have always had Hall big bore headers and exaust on my car, for which I am truly greatfull to some previous wowner, and an Accel distributer. Oh and a K&N air filter. When I was first breaking in the engine I was getting just over 15 miles per gallon. I was babying it pretty much though so that may explain it. And I think the timing has gotten slightly retarded because the mechanic wouldn't listen to me and the timing chain may have streached just a little bit. So I think if I am not at 300 HP I am just off a skoosh. The rating from the factory was something like 235 or something, I can't remember now and they have changed the way they do that now, but I have a highly calibrated ass, and it tells me pretty darn close what Horsepower a car has. I would say I am right around 300 to maybe 330. I did have an almost 400 Hp engine though and it wasn't just my ass that said so. It was other peoples asses too.

..............detom, are you happy with the performance at 300hp ? i am also looking for a reliable, drive anywhere , motor for my car, where did you purchase your crate engine?.................thanx...........dave

Well I would love to tell you where I got it, but the mechanic who put it in wouldn't tell me. I have been working on it today and I would be happy with the performance, but I am uncertain now what it is I have. I wrote George a post for when he gates back, maybe he will know something. At least it came with a three year warrenty, so if breaks on me, I am taking it back with my reciept and demand a new one.
I will keep you informed and let you know what I find out.

I did have an almost 400 Hp engine though and it wasn't just my ass that said so. It was other peoples asses too. DeTom how did you go from 400hp to 300hp?Or was it just you asses calibration being out of wack.

He switched from the right cheek to the left, felt different.

OK, maybe I should clear some things up a little. The original engine was a euro GTS. The part numbers indicated it was of 1970 manufacture. It had ungodly high compresion. I don't know how high it was, but I had to buy premium and a bottle of 104 and lead substitute for every half tank fill up or it would ping like a sonar in heat. The new long block I put in was cobra jet spec and it seems to run fine on regular. It seems to as long as the timing is ok, I just checked it yesterday and it was running at about 10 ATC and I have it at about 20 BTC now, so it was off by 30 degrees. I am going to drive it today and I will let you know if I deem it adequate. ;0
Now as far as calibrated asses, I have been driving for almost 40 years now. During that time I have owned a lot of cars, Mostly muscle cars and have done some drag racing. I have always known what the power ratings and the weight were for each of thos cars and have known what they where capable of and what they felt like during acceleration. So yeah, my behind has become an impromptu dyno. As long as I know approximate weight of a car and drive it, I can guess pretty good.
Now my neighbor is a professional race car driver. He is almost as old as I am. He has raced Fords his whole career and is real familiar with the Cleveland, even though now he races them modular engines. He examined my car, rode in it and pronounced bodly, "You are running just over 400 horses there." Myself I was thinking just under, but who am I to quibble.
I have also given a rides to other calibrated old dudes. They all tended to put it in the same ball park. One said "Damn, this feels like a big block. Are you sure it's a small block??" So I am fairly certain the estimate was in the ball park. She felt like a high tweleve, low thirteen car.
Now the new engine hasn't been around long enough for an extensive history of peer review like that. But I have driven it almost a thousand miles and already I am thinking maybe low to mid fourteens. Maybe after changing the timing I will change my mind. But I am betting I lost from 75 to 100 horsepower dropping the compresion ratio by about 4 points. That is what it feels like anyway.

quote:

Now as far as calibrated asses, I have been driving for almost 40 years now. During that time I have owned a lot of cars, Mostly muscle cars and have done some drag racing. I have always known what the power ratings and the weight were for each of thos cars and have known what they where capable of and what they felt like during acceleration. So yeah, my behind has become an impromptu dyno.

Ok DT,some asses are more talanted than others.Mine keeps giving off that methane gas.I guess it thinks it coming to the end of the world with that colision course with the sun.LOL...

Hey DT,don't take me wrong.I'm just giving you a hard time because of the way you sound.I am going to try and get my ass to calibrate HP too but I'm only good for a +/- 50.

Gentlemen, I never realized that there were so many calabrated asses out there. I will have to be more respectful in the future.

quote:

Mine keeps giving off that methane gas.

That is an indication you are running too rich. May bwant to back off on your fuel consumption.

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
Here’s your shopping list:

1) Clevite 77 crank & rod bearings
2) New flat top FORDGED pistons
3) File to fit iron rings
4) Zero deck the block
5) Rollmaster timing chain
6) SPS, Milodon or ARP rod bolts
7) New or rebuilt balancer
8) Steel or aluminum flywheel, your choice
9) Dynamically balance the reciprocating assembly
10) Use your open chamber heads, resulting in a 9.0:1 compression ratio
11) Install new one piece stainless steel valves, 2.19” intakes, 1.71” exhausts
12) Ford Motorsport bolt down roller rocker arms #M-6564-C351
13) Head work (multi angle valve job, pocket clean up, exhaust port grinding)
14) Electronic ignition
15) Comp Cams XE 274 camshaft, springs, retainers, keepers, lifters
16) Custom length 3/8” pushrods
17) Holley 750 cfm, vacuum secondary carb on your existing intake manifold
18) Aviaid or Armando oil pan
19) Standard oil pump
20) Hi pressure relief spring, chrome moly oil pump shaft, Fram HP1 oil filter
21) Dyno tuning for carb & ignition

Your friend on the DTBB

So what d'ya reckon this baby would cost to get it done, including machine work. I am definitely not expert or even experienced in this area so that's why I am asking. Here's a typical economy rebuild and it would cost about $_______.

Thanks.

Jeff
6559

Dear Jeff, I recently bought a 351 C, cobra jet spec engine. If I had been able to trade in the old block it would have cost $2100. But since my block was totaled, I had to pay $2900 for what is called a long block. That means I had to take the intake manifold and carb and distributor from the old engine and put them on this one. I could not use my old oil pan because after the old engine blew up it had a huge hole in theside so I bout a sexty dollar chrome plated oil pan. I also bought a new water pump, although I wouldn'ta had to, but did just cause it was a new motor. I bought a new starter and clutch and hydralics for the clutch. All in all another 1000 bucks in parts and do-dads. And I paid a guy 1500 bucks to take the old engine out, do all this stuff and put the new one in, put it all back together and such. So for somewhere around five grand I had a new motor and never had to lift a wrench myself. To me that was economical, to my wife it was the greates waste of money in the history of mankind. It is all in perseption I guess.

I've got $11,900 in reciepts for parts and machine shop. That doesn't include the labor to put it together which would have been another $1500.
This was for new US parts, not chinese.
It all depends on what one puts into the engine.
As some people quote, "crap in, crap out".

PDoug, I've got one of those expensive rebuilds, too. People always come and say they coulda rebuilt it for $3000. Once again, I don't have a clue since I did what appears to be the expensive route, so I really would like to know what an economy rebuild with decent and reasonable parts would cost. $5000?

Jeff
6559

The last time I redid an engine was in high school when I really did hit the distributor with a hammer to time it.