Determinations I can make so far:
The engine did NOT have a magnetic oil drain plug.
The piece that stopped the pump definitely can/could have made it through the pickup screen.
The piece that jammed the pump was probably stirred up by my adding the new oil.
The engine never even made one revolution when trying to start after the oil change. The pump jammed instantaniously.
The dents in the pump rotor I believe were from my slow cranking the motor over by hand. 2 dents in each rotor correlates with the 2 revolutions I cranked the motor by hand, looking for TDC #1.
If the motor had run with chunks going through the pump there would have been MUCH more damage.
SO, I can determine that my adding the new oil stirred that chunk of magnetic steel up and over one of the baffles in the pan. It was probably happily living in the pan for a long time in one of the "tubs" formed by the baffles in the pan.
There is still quite a bit of oil in those baffles. Oil that I need to inspect.
Good job Mike. Hope that solves it.
I'm puzzled by "magnetic". What is magnetic in an engine? Magnetic oil plug, but you don't have that. And anything magnetic would have thousand of small specs of metal on it, that's not visible in the pictures. Guess it doesn't matter if it's magnetic or not, it's definitely in the way!
I'm puzzled by "magnetic". What is magnetic in an engine? Magnetic oil plug, but you don't have that. And anything magnetic would have thousand of small specs of metal on it, that's not visible in the pictures. Guess it doesn't matter if it's magnetic or not, it's definitely in the way!
I think he means it will stick to a magnet.
If it was really "magnetic", it would have stuck to just about everything in the block, and most likely wouldn't be stirred up when new oil was poured in. If any part of the screen or pickup was steel, that's where it would be.
If, in real life, that metal chunk looked like the machined piece of steel that it appears to be (in your zoomed in photo, on my iPhone display) - I myself would really want to know where it came from.
But it looks really small, it may be that i think i see tithings that aren't there... I don't want to be pessimistic.....
Rocky
If it was really "magnetic", it would have stuck to just about everything in the block, and most likely wouldn't be stirred up when new oil was poured in. If any part of the screen or pickup was steel, that's where it would be.
If, in real life, that metal chunk looked like the machined piece of steel that it appears to be (in your zoomed in photo, on my iPhone display) - I myself would really want to know where it came from.
But it looks really small, it may be that i think i see tithings that aren't there... I don't want to be pessimistic.....
Rocky
What process do they use to harden camshafts these days ?
If they use induction hardening the cam may be magnetic.
The piece maybe from the cams distributor drive gear in that case.
See if the cam or parts of it is magnetic.
Put a steel feeler gauge in the hole where the distributor goes and see if it wants to stick to the gear.
.
If they use induction hardening the cam may be magnetic.
The piece maybe from the cams distributor drive gear in that case.
See if the cam or parts of it is magnetic.
Put a steel feeler gauge in the hole where the distributor goes and see if it wants to stick to the gear.
.
I found tiny roller bearing pins (I assume from the Jesel Rockers) in the pump. Pin fits right through the screen.
OK, so that's settled. Engine needs to come out, and then I don't know what. Disassembled, inspected, and reassembled? Rebuilt?
I assume I have a failed/failing rocker that's spitting tiny roller bearing pins. Part of one jammed the pump, and I have one complete pin that fell out of the pump.
I haven't checked the oil in the pan yet. There's baffles that hold quite a bit of oil, and I suspect, more roller bearing pins.
I'm debating whether I should try rebuilding the engine myself. I'm broke. I overspent what I had buying what I thought was my dream car, and worth spending the extra money on. Now I'm looking at needing to rebuild the engine.
The roller pins and bits are so small, they could have made their way up into anywhere in the engine, so there's no way I'm going to try and repair the engine. It has to come apart, get inspected, and whatever is necessary needs to be done.
OK, so that's settled. Engine needs to come out, and then I don't know what. Disassembled, inspected, and reassembled? Rebuilt?
I assume I have a failed/failing rocker that's spitting tiny roller bearing pins. Part of one jammed the pump, and I have one complete pin that fell out of the pump.
I haven't checked the oil in the pan yet. There's baffles that hold quite a bit of oil, and I suspect, more roller bearing pins.
I'm debating whether I should try rebuilding the engine myself. I'm broke. I overspent what I had buying what I thought was my dream car, and worth spending the extra money on. Now I'm looking at needing to rebuild the engine.
The roller pins and bits are so small, they could have made their way up into anywhere in the engine, so there's no way I'm going to try and repair the engine. It has to come apart, get inspected, and whatever is necessary needs to be done.
That piece could be from anywhere.
A magnet in the oil pan and one on the bottom of the oil filter would be a cheap solution.
Proportion is difficult to judge from the picture but it does resemble what the tip of the spurs on a gear sychro look like.
The distributor drive gear here is bronze, the roller camshafts are usually steel, but the timing gears are more often than not cast iron.
The tips of the timing gears are the only thing it resembles.
I would look at the distributor drive gears on the camshaft as well just to be safe.
It could be the tip of a tooth on the timing gear BUT you need to find out honestly if this engine had any broken parts in it that were replaced before you bought the car.
It COULD be a "crumb" from a shattered super hardened push rod. When they break, they shatter in pieces into the top of the cylinder head.
The spring rate needed for a mechanical roller camshaft almost guarantees there is that type of push rod in the engine.
When mine broke, it broke on both the rocker arm end and the lifter end. I was fortunate to get all of the pieces before something like this happened.
As I said, with an engine of this nature, it would be a very very good idea to epoxy screens over the drain back holes in the heads.
That will keep them from winding up in the oil pan quickly. You can't do anything about the push rod holes in the heads but that would drop into the lifter gallery so you need to screen those drain back holes too.
IF you are going to do that, get some help on it. You can do way more damage to the engine if one of those screens comes loose.
Epoxy is a ticklish thing long term in an engine.
A magnet in the oil pan and one on the bottom of the oil filter would be a cheap solution.
Proportion is difficult to judge from the picture but it does resemble what the tip of the spurs on a gear sychro look like.
The distributor drive gear here is bronze, the roller camshafts are usually steel, but the timing gears are more often than not cast iron.
The tips of the timing gears are the only thing it resembles.
I would look at the distributor drive gears on the camshaft as well just to be safe.
It could be the tip of a tooth on the timing gear BUT you need to find out honestly if this engine had any broken parts in it that were replaced before you bought the car.
It COULD be a "crumb" from a shattered super hardened push rod. When they break, they shatter in pieces into the top of the cylinder head.
The spring rate needed for a mechanical roller camshaft almost guarantees there is that type of push rod in the engine.
When mine broke, it broke on both the rocker arm end and the lifter end. I was fortunate to get all of the pieces before something like this happened.
As I said, with an engine of this nature, it would be a very very good idea to epoxy screens over the drain back holes in the heads.
That will keep them from winding up in the oil pan quickly. You can't do anything about the push rod holes in the heads but that would drop into the lifter gallery so you need to screen those drain back holes too.
IF you are going to do that, get some help on it. You can do way more damage to the engine if one of those screens comes loose.
Epoxy is a ticklish thing long term in an engine.
Mike, don't know you, don't know the seller. But I think he should take it back or repair it at his expense. I'm sure he didn't expect this to happen, but in all likelihood you bought something not in running order. Just my $0.02
Hello Mike; 1 step at a time!
If you think that the piece/s came from a rocker arm needle roller then.
Remove each jesel rocker arm, disassemble & inspect for a/any missing needle rollers.
If there are not any missing, then you can eliminate those parts as the source/s of the metal fragments.
I'm 100% POSITIVE that draining/adding your oil was NOT the causation of dislodging any metal particles, as HARD cornering/acceleration causes a multitude of MORE FORCE to dislodge a metal particle/s then the rather relatively benign action/force of draining/adding oil.
My approach would be this...Check the roller rockers for any lost needle rollers. All needle rollers intact, then proceed to inspect the cam shaft gear, that's intact, then thoroughly inspect the rest of the internals, using compressed air, blow out all passage ways & clean oil pan.
Install new oil pump & reassembly engine, WITH Magnetic drain plug and checking valve lash.
Spin the new oil pump with extension & drill to both test the operation of the oil pump & pre-prime engine.
Install distributor & with spark plugs removed, turn engine over.
Engine turns over fine with NO binding of distributor.
Reinstall spark plugs & start engine, run engine for 20 minutes at various rpms.
Remove magnetic drain plug & inspect for metal particles.
Drain oil through a fine mesh filter/panty hose ( ask Doug for a pair
).
Remove oil filter & cut open, looking for metal particles.
If no metal particles are found, be HAPPY!!!
If metal particles are found, I would try to identify them.
Then install a new filter, reuse the strained oil, refill the engine & run engine another 20 minutes.
Repeat inspection process.
This time if there are metal particles found, I would then disassemble the engine, NO particles...I would think that ALL passage ways are NOW clear of particles due to the "Flushing Filtering" procedure...& BE HAPPY!!!...Mark
If you think that the piece/s came from a rocker arm needle roller then.
Remove each jesel rocker arm, disassemble & inspect for a/any missing needle rollers.
If there are not any missing, then you can eliminate those parts as the source/s of the metal fragments.
I'm 100% POSITIVE that draining/adding your oil was NOT the causation of dislodging any metal particles, as HARD cornering/acceleration causes a multitude of MORE FORCE to dislodge a metal particle/s then the rather relatively benign action/force of draining/adding oil.
My approach would be this...Check the roller rockers for any lost needle rollers. All needle rollers intact, then proceed to inspect the cam shaft gear, that's intact, then thoroughly inspect the rest of the internals, using compressed air, blow out all passage ways & clean oil pan.
Install new oil pump & reassembly engine, WITH Magnetic drain plug and checking valve lash.
Spin the new oil pump with extension & drill to both test the operation of the oil pump & pre-prime engine.
Install distributor & with spark plugs removed, turn engine over.
Engine turns over fine with NO binding of distributor.
Reinstall spark plugs & start engine, run engine for 20 minutes at various rpms.
Remove magnetic drain plug & inspect for metal particles.
Drain oil through a fine mesh filter/panty hose ( ask Doug for a pair
).Remove oil filter & cut open, looking for metal particles.
If no metal particles are found, be HAPPY!!!
If metal particles are found, I would try to identify them.
Then install a new filter, reuse the strained oil, refill the engine & run engine another 20 minutes.
Repeat inspection process.
This time if there are metal particles found, I would then disassemble the engine, NO particles...I would think that ALL passage ways are NOW clear of particles due to the "Flushing Filtering" procedure...& BE HAPPY!!!...Mark
Actually, before you do a lot more, you might want to cut open the old oil filter just to see if there is any very small metal particles there as well.
That's a good precaution on filter changes of rebuilt motors.
Once you cut the filter apart, squeeze the paper element in a vise to get most of the old out out. It's less messy to inspect that way.
That's a good precaution on filter changes of rebuilt motors.
Once you cut the filter apart, squeeze the paper element in a vise to get most of the old out out. It's less messy to inspect that way.
Guys are you not reading what Mike writes? He found roller pins in the oil pump. That means potentially pins everywhere. Maybe from a failed earlier rocker, maybe from a current. That can't be flushed. Yuo can change pump and replace the rocker and hope to be lucky, but don't drive far from home, another pin will mess up that engine one day. The only safe way is to take it out, take it apart, have it professionally flushed, assemble and install. Won't be expensive,but a lot of work
Sorry Mike. Sleep on it
Sorry Mike. Sleep on it
Mike,
My condolences on your current misfortune. I've read your posts, and sympathize. Good luck on effecting rapid repairs and getting back on the road as painlessly as possible.
A few general comments about this situation. I mean no offense in them:
Spending one's entire budget to fund something is often problematic, because it inevitably breaks down and/or entails unexpected costs. This is true for any machine or building project, from my observation. 20/20 hindsight, I know. Sorry.
Mikael,
Having spent many years managing a repair shop, I'm not sure if I agree with your comment, and here's why.
This breakdown is a matter between the buyer and the seller (not the rest of us). Used vehicles are typically sold "as is", as I would assume this one was. Once a used vehicle leaves the seller's possession, it's hard to determine liability. My cousin once sold a Harley and the buyer missed a shift on the way home and grenaded the motor. Whadya do?
Mike's made several comments about his car that make me question who should bear that liability:
See what I mean? It's not entirely clear (to me) how hard or how far the car was driven.
Roger's already stepped up and helped some, and that's very commendable. (He's surely got things he'd rather be doing.) To me, that would suggest that he's an honest guy and will be fair to Mike.
I just think it's not a call for the rest of us to go making.
Paul
My condolences on your current misfortune. I've read your posts, and sympathize. Good luck on effecting rapid repairs and getting back on the road as painlessly as possible.
A few general comments about this situation. I mean no offense in them:
Spending one's entire budget to fund something is often problematic, because it inevitably breaks down and/or entails unexpected costs. This is true for any machine or building project, from my observation. 20/20 hindsight, I know. Sorry.
quote:Originally posted by No Quarter:
Mike, don't know you, don't know the seller. But I think he should take it back or repair it at his expense. I'm sure he didn't expect this to happen, but in all likelihood you bought something not in running order. Just my $0.02
Mikael,
Having spent many years managing a repair shop, I'm not sure if I agree with your comment, and here's why.
This breakdown is a matter between the buyer and the seller (not the rest of us). Used vehicles are typically sold "as is", as I would assume this one was. Once a used vehicle leaves the seller's possession, it's hard to determine liability. My cousin once sold a Harley and the buyer missed a shift on the way home and grenaded the motor. Whadya do?
Mike's made several comments about his car that make me question who should bear that liability:
quote:My tach works only part time
The engine's a full blown Nascar style race engine
I punched it full throttle for the first time giving a friend a ride merging onto the freeway, and Holy Shit! Scared the both of us!
The motor was insane while it ran.
I know after having my engine take a crap on me 3 tankfuls of gas into my new ownership
now I'm doing open heart surgery on my car after driving it maybe 100 miles.
See what I mean? It's not entirely clear (to me) how hard or how far the car was driven.
Roger's already stepped up and helped some, and that's very commendable. (He's surely got things he'd rather be doing.) To me, that would suggest that he's an honest guy and will be fair to Mike.
I just think it's not a call for the rest of us to go making.
Paul
Mike(s) -
My suggestion to inspect his old filter will add no cost, and might just add to his knowledge base about what is happening in his engine.
The particle in the picture was not a (whole) needle bearing.....
Rocky
My suggestion to inspect his old filter will add no cost, and might just add to his knowledge base about what is happening in his engine.
The particle in the picture was not a (whole) needle bearing.....
Rocky
Roger just mentioned he had a rocker failure a while back, and thought he'd gotten all the pieces. Well, he missed some for sure.
He is telling me to just clean the pan, and put the motor back to work.
He is telling me to just clean the pan, and put the motor back to work.
How do these comments make you question anything I may have done? I didn't overrev the engine, tach or no tach, the engine did run great while it ran, it had insane power. I only punched it full throttle that one time getting on the freeway, and I assure you, I didn't even push the motor close to it's potential.
I was corrected and this engine is closer to a sprint car engine than Nascar. It has Ytaes heads and Jesel Rockers, that's about all I know.
The motor ran perfectly onto the lift, and died the moment I tried to restart it after changing the oil.
I was corrected and this engine is closer to a sprint car engine than Nascar. It has Ytaes heads and Jesel Rockers, that's about all I know.
The motor ran perfectly onto the lift, and died the moment I tried to restart it after changing the oil.
quote:Originally posted by MarsRed:
Mike,
My condolences on your current misfortune. I've read your posts, and sympathize. Good luck on effecting rapid repairs and getting back on the road as painlessly as possible.
A few general comments about this situation. I mean no offense in them:
Spending one's entire budget to fund something is often problematic, because it inevitably breaks down and/or entails unexpected costs. This is true for any machine or building project, from my observation. 20/20 hindsight, I know. Sorry.quote:Originally posted by No Quarter:
Mike, don't know you, don't know the seller. But I think he should take it back or repair it at his expense. I'm sure he didn't expect this to happen, but in all likelihood you bought something not in running order. Just my $0.02
Mikael,
Having spent many years managing a repair shop, I'm not sure if I agree with your comment, and here's why.
This breakdown is a matter between the buyer and the seller (not the rest of us). Used vehicles are typically sold "as is", as I would assume this one was. Once a used vehicle leaves the seller's possession, it's hard to determine liability. My cousin once sold a Harley and the buyer missed a shift on the way home and grenaded the motor. Whadya do?
Mike's made several comments about his car that make me question who should bear that liability:
quote:My tach works only part time
The engine's a full blown Nascar style race engine
I punched it full throttle for the first time giving a friend a ride merging onto the freeway, and Holy Shit! Scared the both of us!
The motor was insane while it ran.
I know after having my engine take a crap on me 3 tankfuls of gas into my new ownership
now I'm doing open heart surgery on my car after driving it maybe 100 miles.
See what I mean? It's not entirely clear (to me) how hard or how far the car was driven.
Roger's already stepped up and helped some, and that's very commendable. (He's surely got things he'd rather be doing.) To me, that would suggest that he's an honest guy and will be fair to Mike.
I just think it's not a call for the rest of us to go making.
Paul
Paul you may be right about we should stay out of it. I just gave my $0.02 to a fellow forum'er. He'll make his mind up. But if I had just bought a Pantera, priced to be in working order, and found a rocker had spewed parts in the engine and the seller hadn't cleaned and not even put a magnetic plug in, I know what I would do, I'd expect the seller to fix if.
And since current rockers are not broken, Mike didn't cause this failure
That was approx $0.08
And since current rockers are not broken, Mike didn't cause this failure
That was approx $0.08
Mike, the metal part shown on the finger, could it be that it is in fact from the pump? Does it fit the cavity shown on the pump thingies? Maybe broken off trying to chew the rocker bearing pins?
Now the plot thickens...
Question 1. Had there been PRIOR to Mike's ownership Jesel roller rocker arm failure/s?
Question 2. Did the possibility of a Jesel rocker arm failure lead to the release of needle roller bearings into the engine?
Question 3. Was the Jesel rocker arm failure disclosed to Mike during car's inspection, if in fact one had occurred ?
Only speaking for myself PERSONALLY!
If I had a needle roller rocker arm failure & knew that the possibility of having needle roller bearing "floooooooating" around the internals of my engine was a 100% certainty.
I would HAVE disassembled the engine & undertaken the arduous task of ensuring that the engine was 100% metal particles/fragments free.
An engine's breakin period is where one should expect a cam lobe or lifter to go flat or a myriad of other internal parts to cause problems due to metal particles/fragments vs a "well seasoned engine" as is what we are discussing...Mark
Question 1. Had there been PRIOR to Mike's ownership Jesel roller rocker arm failure/s?
Question 2. Did the possibility of a Jesel rocker arm failure lead to the release of needle roller bearings into the engine?
Question 3. Was the Jesel rocker arm failure disclosed to Mike during car's inspection, if in fact one had occurred ?
Only speaking for myself PERSONALLY!
If I had a needle roller rocker arm failure & knew that the possibility of having needle roller bearing "floooooooating" around the internals of my engine was a 100% certainty.
I would HAVE disassembled the engine & undertaken the arduous task of ensuring that the engine was 100% metal particles/fragments free.
An engine's breakin period is where one should expect a cam lobe or lifter to go flat or a myriad of other internal parts to cause problems due to metal particles/fragments vs a "well seasoned engine" as is what we are discussing...Mark
All the pan stuff is stock Aviaid including the reversion baffle, pickup & brace. Tack-welding the stock screw-in pump pickup (once done to stock pickups) to the body has been know to heat-treat the pressure relief spring very close to the area in question. And it really screws with replacing a pump! I don't use nylocks submerged in hot oil- nylocks (as the name says) are plastic and soften. I'd safety-wire the Aviaid bolts. And finally, a STD pump will be just fine for the street and limited open track.
The solid roller cam also has needle bearings in each of its 16 lifters; pull each pair as I mentioned and inspect closely for damage to wheels & bearings. It's more common to lose needles from a solid-roller lifter than from a roller rocker. The drain-back passages in the Yates C-3 heads should be mechanically cleared as well. Those li'l needles (rocker or other) often get washed forward and tangle with the timing chain.
The solid roller cam also has needle bearings in each of its 16 lifters; pull each pair as I mentioned and inspect closely for damage to wheels & bearings. It's more common to lose needles from a solid-roller lifter than from a roller rocker. The drain-back passages in the Yates C-3 heads should be mechanically cleared as well. Those li'l needles (rocker or other) often get washed forward and tangle with the timing chain.
The short period of time ( 2 seconds) per tack it would take to weld the oil intake tube is NOT sufficient enough time to "Heat Treat" anything, let alone the pressure relief spring.
We are talking about a "tack weld", NOT a full circumference continuous bead.
As a source of reference, I was a Union High Rise Welder, certified to 1" in ALL positions!...Mark
We are talking about a "tack weld", NOT a full circumference continuous bead.
As a source of reference, I was a Union High Rise Welder, certified to 1" in ALL positions!...Mark
Mike,
No offense intended towards you at all. For what it's worth, I believe that you probably have really babied it. I have no cause to doubt your word. No disrespect meant to you by quoting what you wrote earlier.
My comment was only that any coverage from Roger is between you and he. Period.
Now, back to your problem, and again, good luck with fixing it asap and as economically as possible.
Paul
No offense intended towards you at all. For what it's worth, I believe that you probably have really babied it. I have no cause to doubt your word. No disrespect meant to you by quoting what you wrote earlier.
My comment was only that any coverage from Roger is between you and he. Period.
Now, back to your problem, and again, good luck with fixing it asap and as economically as possible.
Paul