Clutch adjustment?

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:
I'm lucky, as I have not had as much trouble as Peter with either of my clutches (a stock 3 Finger, and a Centeforce diaphragm), but isn't there some amount of "wear" and "settling in" that will occur when a brand new clutch is installed?

Marcels compress, minor high spots are burnished off, and the disk compresses due to the thermal and friction environment?


Just hoping for the best.....

Rocky

Just assembling and installing the clutch sets the Marcel.

Will there be a seating of the clutch lining? Sure, but not .015". Maybe .005 at most BUT in the ZF it isn't just the synchros, it's the gear cones, shipping it to Lloyd, waiting and hoping you can pay the bill?

I don't trust anyone on these parts. The guys who are selling them to you think that they are experts and you are just a smuck.

This really smells of the wrong disc in there.

You might be able to measure the clearance of the Marcel on the disc that is in there like you did on the disc PP clearance. Then compare that to a know correct disc.

I don't think that I have a disc out of the car here. A pressure plate, yes, but that doesn't help.

I positively guaranty you that if you talk to the Byers or Dennis at Pantera Performance(which is the best place to buy a clutch from), describe what is happening to them, they are simply going to tell you that you have the wrong clutch in there.

It doesn't matter what "expert" you bought it from. Something is not right with it.

It could be the "Chevy Expert Syndrome" again at play.

Remember. THEY are the expert, WE are just smucks.

There has to be a point where all this grey hair, skinned knuckles and Rolaids consumption registers as significant documentation of experience.

@ Rocky, the actual thickness of the clutch lining on the disc may also be thicker now then on the original disc. Justification for that would be because that is a "premium lining".

I can't think of another car that has the same issues with clearances then the Pantera? Buying a clutch from some of these people is like talking to the kid who works part time in Staples.

I needed a "customs envelope" to ship to Germany. They told me to go to the "Custom Print Shop".

But why are the few FACTS about a Pantera clutch requirements on a top seceret bases?
when I say FACTS, having a "special" Marcel or a changed geometry fingers statements my be TRUETHs, but a measureable parameter is needed.

I don't think this is limited to the Pantera as my google searches for such information produces many hits for other vehiclies where the forums are going thru similair problems.

You Know, not providing measurable values is not unique to car entuistist as I recall the same when I was working

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:
But why are the few FACTS about a Pantera clutch requirements on a top seceret bases?
when I say FACTS, having a "special" Marcel or a changed geometry fingers statements my be TRUETHs, but a measureable parameter is needed.

I don't think this is limited to the Pantera as my google searches for such information produces many hits for other vehiclies where the forums are going thru similair problems.

You Know, not providing measurable values is not unique to car entuistist as I recall the same when I was working

Why indeed?

I think part of the issue is cost. My CF was $800 from Hall at the time.

A clutch that looked right but fit a Mustang was $290.

So many of the clutch parts are mixed and matched.

You could have a different thickness throwout bearing. It could be the thickness of the pressure plate. It could be a difference in the assembly height of the springs in the pressure plate.

I think also that on the engineering side of producing a special clutch just for the Pantera there is a presumption that the car has a "normal" adjustment procedure.

I will also say that there is quite a use of Chevy clutches in Mustangs. I bought an 11" fine spline from Summit for under $200.

It was for use with my Doug Nash, aka, Richmond 5 speed, which at the time had no clutch specifically built for it.

I needed to redrill the flywheel for the different pressure plate mounting pattern.

That transmission used a Chevy fine spline disc with a Ford length and nose.

Fortunately the assembly had no issue with enough assembly height to get the needed clearances.

The Pantera ZF bell is not the case. It really is the culprit here causing these issues. It's too small.

Maybe one of the aftermarket bells would help?

Ask Comp2. He's got one.

to me, the mixing and matching would make it nearly manditory key information be available.

I feel I should just shutup from beating this horse until I am able to make my own measurements in leu of finding bits and pieces on the internet.

But like for Peter's problem, the simple stroke of a stock master cylinder and slave is still undetermined.

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:
to me, the mixing and matching would make it nearly manditory key information be available.

I feel I should just shutup from beating this horse until I am able to make my own measurements in leu of finding bits and pieces on the internet.

But like for Peter's problem, the simple stroke of a stock master cylinder and slave is still undetermined.

I don't see where an open discussion of this is detrimental to anything or anyone.

I think it is helpful to the Pantera community.

Ask Peter if we are screwing him up? Peter?

what I meant for me, is that all I bring to the discussion is a "method" to solve tah is foreign to most, but I don't have any real knowledge that would actually help.

I can feel for Peter and I have expressed my intents in that I hope I have not added confussion and even now, not truly Knowing if it is solved

-30-

Just for information.

I bought my spinner disc from Becky at Pantera performance.
Also bought my pressure plate from them.
I note that I did mention that I was having my old spinner relined.

I think I got the correct parts for they were kindly sent to me by Mike Drew.

Only time will tell if all is well, but I shall keep the forum informed.

In the light of my troubles I would like to see
a well documented description of how to instal
1 a 3 finger clutch sytem or
2 a centreforce clutch system.

If I were doing it it would begin with

Buy ALL your clutch parts from one vendor who also issues a written description of how to fit it and ALL measurements required.

Best Pete,

Discussion only helps I find thanks again chaps

Peter,

Since you purchased your disk and pressure plate from Pantera Performance, perhaps you should speak with Dennis. He's always happy to offer advice. Also, he's familiar with your clutch assy. and has likely seen your problem before.

Here's an interesting description of the Clutch assembly, by Fred Matsumoto (PI News "Window Monitor).

This came from PI News, Vol 16, No. 3 in 1991.

I think it's the first issue Doug received, because he pretty much quoted it in one of his earlier posts in this discussion!

Not trying to stir up trouble - just post up some history.

Rocky

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:
Here's an interesting description of the Clutch assembly, by Fred Matsumoto (PI News "Window Monitor).

This came from PI News, Vol 16, No. 3 in 1991.

I think it's the first issue Doug received, because he pretty much quoted it in one of his earlier posts in this discussion!

Not trying to stir up trouble - just post up some history.

Rocky

Doug who?

You know, that "Shelby Doug" guy...

I think he is French (maybe Haitian or Jamaican - possibly Canadian?), his middle name is "Marcel".




This one.

Thread on Marcels

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:
You know, that "Shelby Doug" guy...

I think he is French (maybe Haitian or Jamaican - possibly Canadian?), his middle name is "Marcel".




This one.

Thread on Marcels

You mean this guy? Looks like a disruptor to me? He can't even spell his own name right? What's he know 'bout Pantera clutches? Just a dumb as s.

Anyone any good at working out hyd ratios.

I have been having similar issues to Peter and ordered a new master and slave from Germany. The slave is good at 1.00" bore etc but I notice the master bore is only .7" as opposed to the OEM of .75". It also has a longer stroke at 1.225" as opposed to the OEM master of 1.125".

Adjusting the master pushrod to the recommended 2.91 to 2.95 I am not able to select gears and not getting any clearance at the clutch plate.

I am hoping to be able to exchange the master to the correct .75" but if not what would the master pushrod length need to be to give the required/correct amount of travel/displacement etc.

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by Horace Cope:
Anyone any good at working out hyd ratios....

the slave has a 1” bore which gives it (pies are square) 0.787 “” area

the master cylinder with 0.70” bore have 0.386”” area
stroking its 1.225” would spurt (area X stroke) 0.473””” volume to the slave
and this should stroke the slave (volume/area) 0.601”

the master cylinder with a 0.75” bore would have 0.443”” area
stroking its 1.125 would spurt 0.498””” volume
and this should stroke the slave (volume/area) 0.633”

the BIG thing is getting the pedal to stroke the MC its entire stroke.

Do you have the peddle effort reduction linkage? Assuming so,

The initial push rod length of 2.93” is to set the initial ANGLE of the link.
IF too shallow, the pedal will lock in the up position
Too steep and even though the pedal is easy to push, the MC stroke will be reduced
Thus ALWAYS measure slave stroke

Thanks

Yes I have the ERK fitted. The travel of the piston in the slave from its stop is 40mm (1.575"). However thats measuring it manually

How can I ensure I am getting full travel on the MC and subsequently the correct amount of stroke on the slave. It states the MC pushrod should be set at 2.91 to 2.95 but thats based on a .75 MC I assume.

quote:

Originally posted by Horace Cope:
How can I ensure I am getting full travel on the MC and subsequently the correct amount of stroke on the slave.

Measuring the slave will let you know if you are getting the full stroke of the MC. use the calculated strokes based on volume transfer. One can assume there could be "some" loss, maybe due to the swelling of the hose with pressure.

quote:

It states the MC pushrod should be set at 2.91 to 2.95 but thats based on a .75 MC I assume.

Using basic lever/link/hydrualics understanding, the push rod lenght is NOT dependant of the MC bore. But the relative position of the piston in the cylinder and its mounting to the pedal box. So if the mounting is the same, the 2.9 would be the same. However, IMO, the 2.9" is only a referance value, BUT the initial angle of the toggle link is CRITICAL.

one of the real world influences i have not considered is the pedal travel and what limits it

That ONLY matters IF you are not getting enough clutch disengagement. You determine that with a feeler gauge.

Mike,

As JFB states the length of the rod is to set the relative position of the effort reduction linkage, so should be master cylinder independent. The caveat top that statement is that the master cylinder piston is in the same relative position, which may not be the case as the stop ring may be in a different location and/or the cup that the rod sits in can be deeper on different master cylinders.

To be sure you should measure the distance from the center of the piston cup to the mating flange (back side of bolt flange) and compare on the two cylinders.

You should also do same with the slave to ensure the required rod length on the old and new slave is the same.

Julian

to adjust the push rod to set the initial angle of the ERK. I would THINK setting the center pen a given amount out of line with the end pins would be the most accurate.

HOWEVER, I do NOT know that value and my illustration is NOT to scale