Additional note. 8MA1266 although beautiful and one of highest value in the world is not numbers matching as original motor was replaced by a Rousch racing motor. Original block and intake lost forever in USA.

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Last edited by denisc
Thank you very much, I appreciate your comment.
Frankly, I do t like the restoration of the car as everything’s is badly done.
One, when you have a expensive car, it s a obligation to put back his original color
Second, you can modify the original engine, but always keep it, as what is valuable for ferrari or Lamborghini is also true for DT, a car should be matching numbers to get the most value.
Third and last, I have seen the car and was not impressed by the restoration, for everybody who have seen a DT restored by Diomante in Italy, it s night and day.
In the community of DT , it s time that everybody understand that documented car is important and originality also.
If you have a perfect push button Pantera, it will cost double that for the same car push button but modified it Gr4
Originality is the key of futur value, and documented car is very important.
Did you see that the BMW 507 was sold last week 50% more that a other one, why ? Because perfectly documented from day one.
Thank you for your time that you take to respond to me.
This is unfortunately perfectly true for the value of the car in the speculative market but how hystorical and matching numbers bring something to the real value of the car, I mean its way of driving, its performance, its reliability, etc. .. ????

I am currently completely restoring a 1972 L without historical but engine and ZF matching number and without modifying the look. Its original color was yellow but I do not like this color much, in your opinion it will be worth much less if I repaint it red or black?
My car doesn't drive or perform any better with documents than without them. And driving is that, what i bought it for. This sounds for me like telling Escimos that they need fridgerators...
I was offered tyne De Tomaso Archive details for my Euro Pantera 3840, from a man who lived in Switzerland, his name was Marcel Shaub, they cost me Euro 450.

They cleared up the mystery of why my car with 40K miles on it had "an engine with not the correct number" the engine had in fact been replaced by the factory when a valve dropped in the original engine.

Such a sum is a lot for paperwork but they were NOT photocopies but the real deal.

Personally Photocopies would be my preferred way of working therefore keeping the archive intact, but money rules sadly. every time an owner buys his details the archive is more depleted.
A ferrari 308 polyester red/black will be faster and a better driver with a 328 engine, but the value will be 50 % less.
Here, I m talking about originality and value, now if so do et want to spend 1 million euro and make it faster than a Bugatti, I don’t care, but he will never see his money back.
I m talking about heritage, and I known that some owners do t see it this way.
I respect their choices, if they respect mine.
Strange, Marcel Schaub has originals from the archive and Mr. Olczyk claimes, he ownes the "complete" archive. I remember a guy on eBay ( Sylvestro ) selling originals as well. How many asrchives are out there?
Quote here from one of our gurus, many years ago:

But the paperwork....it remains in flux...
Maybe someday, Santiago will cut the notebook loose and we can all get "our pages" but I doubt that you'll see much variance other than perhaps "special A/C dash" or different calipers front/rear.....perhaps some clue to aluminum or magnesium rims....! Paint codes.....or names.
That would be cool!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Fenlon:
I was offered tyne De Tomaso Archive details for my Euro Pantera 3840, from a man who lived in Switzerland, his name was Marcel Shaub, they cost me Euro 450.

They cleared up the mystery of why my car with 40K miles on it had "an engine with not the correct number" the engine had in fact been replaced by the factory when a valve dropped in the original engine.

Such a sum is a lot for paperwork but they were NOT photocopies but the real deal.

Personally Photocopies would be my preferred way of working therefore keeping the archive intact, but money rules sadly. every time an owner buys his details the archive is more depleted.


450 don’t means anything’s, depend what you receive, some docs can be more expensive or less. It s all different, and that the fun of it, all are différents.
I just found original Italian papers for a pantera, the original papers as the car was the test car for the factory, and the car is for sake today, without ant documentation...
What the value then of the docs ?
quote:
Originally posted by Olczyk:

450 don’t means anything’s, depend what you receive, some docs can be more expensive or less. It s all different, and that the fun of it, all are différents.
I just found original Italian papers for a pantera, the original papers as the car was the test car for the factory, and the car is for sake today, without ant documentation...
What the value then of the docs ?


For me? NOTHING, $ zero

The papers will not remove a gram of rust from the car, will not remove a micron from cylinders wear, will not restore flexibility to rubbers and plastics or gloss to paint. I would even say that they are worthless to the car because a factory test car suffers a lot and the body had to wear a lot and lose a lot of stiffness.


BUT, if a speculator, who will store the car without ever driving with it, agrees to pay the car twice as much if it has the papers, then they are worth a quarter of the price of the car.

But my opinion has no value, I am only an old engineer who has understood nothing and still believes that cars, even old and quite rare, are made to run....

Finally yes, I understand the interest you have in defending the value of papers since it is your buziness and you're right since people buy them.
You miss the complet story and I m sure that you don’t have a proper car.
Everywhere, the value come from the documentation, in everything’s.
You have a watch from Elvis Presley, it s documented , then it s value a fortune.
Same with cars, all of them, when they are collectibles, they need to be documented.
Let s say that one De Tomaso had a Maserati engine in it, and it s documented by the factory, it will be double price than a normal pantera. How I known for sure, simple, it was my car with a Merak engine and I sold it double et now, his value is more than double what he have paid.
Everywhere, you will find people who don’t understand, but the fact that they don’t understand will not change the reality,
DOCUMENTSTION IS EVERYTHINGS
That's what I said, it seems to me, papers are valuable to speculators.

quote:
Originally posted by René #4406:

BUT,if a speculator, who will store the car without ever driving with it, agrees to pay the car twice as much if it has the papers, then they are worth a quarter of the price of the car.

But my opinion has no value, I am only an old engineer who has understood nothing and still believes that cars, even old and quite rare, are made to run....


.



And no, my Pantera has no history but yes I have a car that will soon be "collectible", A TVR Griffith 500 of 1997 with all the documents, the invoice of purchase, all the invoices of maintenance , the owner's manual, photocopies of the first two certificates of English registration since I am only the third owner, etc, etc ..... I hope that I can sell it twice its value "real".
I‘ve been reading this thread with great interest and has prompted me to consult a few friends that have oldtimers regarding the importance of documentation. We all agreed to disagree on many points, however there were some points where we all nodded our heads.
Technical documentation is important to support certain technical claims made about the car such as mileage and maintenance. Few would argue that this is not of value.
Things become interesting when it comes to historical documentation documenting claims such as provenance, the winning of important races or having the original build sheet to name just a few. The value of this documentation lies in the eyes of the beholder and he should not be critized for wanting it. It will not affect the enjoyment you get from driving the car. Trust me. I have 2 red Panteras, both 1972. One with documentation and the other without. Guess what. I enjoy both the same. A Picasso painting with signature is more valuable than one without. That is a fact. Both are none the less, equally beautiful. How much is all this worth? Market forces will determine the price. Worried about speculators? Don‘t be. They can influence the prices only so much.
Letˋs look on the bright side of things. We are free to drive and enjoy our wonderful cars even if we donˋt know anything about their history. At least I do!
Ha ha ha, again a attack against me, I have a advice to you....

dear sir, your life is so empty that you are interested in my life?
I advise you to fill your life, find projects that inspire you and give you joy.
After, you will réalise that if you are busy and happy, the life of others will have no interest

And if the project DT had some real interest for you, you should had fly to Italy and do it yourself
quote:


In my opinion Phillippe, with all due respect, you are not a registrar, nor a repository, nor a historian, nor an archivist. What I have observed is that you've come into possession of factory documents, now you're selling them off. You're not archiving them, you're selling the original copies and ruining the chances of a future historian using the documents for research ... as you had used factory documents to research your book. You're taking a collection of documents, an archive, and splintering it. Isn't that the opposite of an archivist? Thus by your actions I would say you are a salesman. You are also taking advantage of our forums, advertising your "merchandise" for free. You should place a banner ad and pay the monthly fee, or place a one time ad in the classifieds like the rest of us.



I agree Smiler
Last edited by George P
Again a free attack, or is it because I refuse to work for free that you attack me
I m more historian than you, I wrote the official book, which one did you wrote ?
I own many websites where, www.classicscars.com you have access for free to DT archives, how many web sites do you own ?

Your life is so empty, that you want to be involve in mine ?
Try to be hapy with your own life, and dont jealous other
No criticism on my part, why do you feel attacked when we say that you are a salesman? There is no shame in that.

Be relaxed.

Suceptible, don't support any criticism and pretentious lesson giver, a very nice character!
Honestly I don't understand this discussion.

Phillippe has some interesting information about many of our cars, that he is willing to share for a fee.

I think the information is pretty cool, and would add to the value of any DT car out there, and I would even consider it for my cars.

Maybe the pricing is too high, maybe it's too low. Who know's, but if you think it's too much, then don't buy. It's THAT simple.



My only concern is that, since it is the original papers that are sold, the archives will be spilt, and thus, the complete story may be lost.
quote:
Originally posted by Push1267:
Honestly I don't understand this discussion.

Phillippe has some interesting information about many of our cars, that he is willing to share for a fee.

I think the information is pretty cool, and would add to the value of any DT car out there, and I would even consider it for my cars.

Maybe the pricing is too high, maybe it's too low. Who know's, but if you think it's too much, then don't buy. It's THAT simple.



My only concern is that, since it is the original papers that are sold, the archives will be spilt, and thus, the complete story may be lost.


Thank you, story will not be lost as www.registerMangusta.com will be online end of the month, plus, I keep a copy of all of it .
Thank you for your support
You dont answer...
How many books did you wrote on de Tomaso ?
Me I spend 6 month of my life in Modena at the factory...then
"Selling" is a more appropriate term than "sharing for a fee".

I have absolutely nothing against the principle, everyone earns his life as he wants, or can.

However, he defends the thesis that the documentation of a car is an essential element of its value at least as important, if not more important, than the real material condition of the car. I know this point of view is shared by some collectors but it's not my case.

This forum is free expression and I have the right to say it without receiving lessons on how to lead my life.
quote:
Originally posted by René #4406:
"Selling" is a more appropriate term than "sharing for a fee".

I have absolutely nothing against the principle, everyone earns his life as he wants, or can.

However, he defends the thesis that the documentation of a car is an essential element of its value at least as important, if not more important, than the real material condition of the car. I know this point of view is shared by some collectors but it's not my case.

This forum is free expression and I have the right to say it without receiving lessons on how to lead my life.


he defends the thesis that the documentation of a car is an essential element of its value at least as important = YES, I defend this
If you had the Elvis Pantera documented , you will sell it at Hemmings for 65 000 $ or at RM for 1 million
And again The Reaper = Ignorant

You are an ignorant and a coward because it is so easy to attack behind a nickname.
Honest people do not hide, they have the honor to wear their name or your name is horrible and you choose to hide and attack.

Do you have one of Tomaso? if so, but your attitude makes me think you do not have Tomaso and live your life on the internet. Stop hiding, be a man

Be a man and send me your email and your real name, show me instead of hiding like a rat. Because if you showed your true face, you would be nicer
From the terms of service, a link can be found at the bottom of each page, for this forum:

“Vendors are welcome to use the Community News Forum to inform members about Pantera or De Tomaso specific parts or services available. Vendors may post questions aimed at the general forum membership in Alejandro's Neighborhood Pub forum.”

Larry
Who will grant, that the offered documents are real. Remembering seeing thousends of blank forms in the abandoned factory. Is there any official statement of Isabella DeTomaso to prove that you are the official beholder of the archiv? And what about the archive in Switzerland and the documents "Silvestro" sold on eBay?
Nobody ask you to buy anythings, nobody...
With all documents beeing show everywhere, here or Facebook, real owners known.
Bye
As my time is precious, I will not respond anymore to the negatives person who have no life.
I prefer to spend my time for real lovers, owners of Pantera who understand my vision, for the other, if you want to attack me, dont do it on internet, ask for a rdv , meet me and attack me in front of me.
And if you dont known me, just buy my de Tomaso book, you will understand my passion for the brand

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quote:
Originally posted by Olczyk:
he defends the thesis that the documentation of a car is an essential element of its value at least as important = YES, I defend this
If you had the Elvis Pantera documented , you will sell it at Hemmings for 65 000 $ or at RM for 1 million


This is of course true for the Elvis Pantera and the few dozen others who have a particular story, but for ALL others what is the interest of knowing that they were sold new by Bill's garage to John Smith of a small town in the midle of the Midle West, then resold to his neighbor who sold it himself to the concierge of his cousin who sold it to ?????? to finally land at the dealer to whom I bought it? In what way does this knowledge and the documents proving it bring any added value to the car?
Here, a good message clever, of course, the story of Elvis is more valuable but if your car have the original invoice, original built sheet, it s better for the value of it as perfectly documented.
Always better to buy a car very well documented, if you had the choice, you buy a car that nobody known nothing or a car that you known everythings ?
quote:
Originally posted by Olczyk:...
And if you dont known me, just buy my de Tomaso book, you will understand my passion for the brand


I have the book! read every word and studied each photo. Thanks

AND, I would buy a book that was just factory documents.........(hint, if it was complete)

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quote:
Originally posted by Olczyk:
Always better to buy a car very well documented, if you had the choice, you buy a car that nobody known nothing or a car that you known everythings ?


Frankly? If they are the same price and in the same condition or with a VERY VERY small difference, the one with the documentation, but I'm really not ready to spend money to know that it is Gino who mounted the right front wheel and Mario the back left brake.

But I belong to this category of people, and I'm not the only one on this forum, which when he buys a vintage car restores it himself from A to Z and so a few months later, I could fill the built sheet myself.
quote:
Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:
From the terms of service, a link can be found at the bottom of each page, for this forum:

“Vendors are welcome to use the Community News Forum to inform members about Pantera or De Tomaso specific parts or services available. Vendors may post questions aimed at the general forum membership in Alejandro's Neighborhood Pub forum.”

Larry


I'm the author of that excerpt. Use is one thing, but at some point excessive use becomes abuse of privilege. I am not happy how Phillippe started this under the guise of registrar but as it turns out that was merely a smokescreen for his true intentions to simply sell documents. This whole thing could have been presented in a much more straight forward and honest manner and saved us about 8 pages of bombast and drama. My patience is wearing thin. I think we've read enough, everyone knows what he has for sale, if there's more he hasn't mentioned yet its his own fault, he's had more than enough time to provide full disclosure. Phillippe if you want to continue to reach this market, I think you and I need to discuss a banner ad privately before you post anything else publicly.

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