Driving 5177

Lookin’ good, Joe!

(Can’t find that article on my phone, but I’ll keep looking!)

Just keep driving!!!  It's what these cars were made for and do best!

trying to figure out how to take and edit vid.    don't know why out of focus.

cold start   https://youtu.be/mMZrxXaltxY

I discovered a driving idiosyncrasy I don't recall hearing before.

when I released the clutch, the toe of my shoe was "grabbed"

does my steering knuckle look like it is the the right place.   This is a new piece.  any comment about brake pedal.

500 miles today!   no trips just loops around neighborhood.

the plan is, make notes of what needs to be changed, then back to shop after first of the year.

i am having dexterity problems and finding first is a challange for me.   i took a cabinet hinge and made a reverse lockout.   WHAT a differance to be able to push to left and pull down.  I now don't have to hold clutch down at stop light.

THANKS to ebay's "barbaram442"  i now have a working lap and a set of 72 shoulder belts.   i used a7/16-20 x 1" bolt for anchoring shoulder belt.

those belts are a pain.   lap belt "locks" and keeps tighting and can't pull out till full retract.   the shoulder has to be hooked in lap before buckling

Question . . . I have a new radiator and pusher fans (unknow vendor).   the  sealing panels ( 53 & 54) were left off.    How important would you think they are, especially 54, preventing frontal air going around radiator.   I didn't see the tabs on the new radiator and area looks conjested where they would fit

Hey John!  Glad you got your car back.  !  Is is overheating?  The air deflectors made a difference with the stock radiator at road speeds.  I struggled with overheat problems for 10 years before we figured that the orifice under the thermostate was too big and never would stop off the bypass.   I see your brake pedal and I cut the bottom corner off mine and it cost nothing and makes a huge difference when driving!

You can make simple deflectors, I actually used foam pipe insulation and just blocked off the areas  above where air could get around my rear condensor mount. You can see the sides are simple thin   aluminum sheet I bent and fit tight,

My clutch foot toe will also get grabbed. This is when you need your smooth sided Italian loafers!    If you take my reccomendation and cut your brake pedal corner off, you will immediatly notice more footroom. I want to add this modification to the 20 best mods for under 20 bucks.

Thanks for the "experiances" lessons learned !

the driving tecnique and muscle memory going from one car to another got me.   I hopped in the TR6 to run to town for gas (and keep battery up) and almost wrecked aproaching stop sign,   all THREE pedals responded different.

as for brake pedal, the fact that it was lower than throttle.   (opposite on TR6).    I think I have a tecnique that will work good as I continue to use it,   that is keep the right heel on floor and "turn" foot from throttle to the lower brake, using between toes and ball.

sort of same thing with clutch, keep the heel on floor (inline with clutch) then raise slightly to use between toes and ball, instead of arch.  

both of those have me thinking about a "heel rest".    shaped something like wall mounted bottle opener!

I have not removed tube to even look at the AC condensor and its sealing for air flow.    (I had wanted the "L" trunk profile made like earlier car for more air exit flow, but didn't want to delay in driving)

"I" think the side shields are needed but didn't want to be more "picky" for taking care of any items noted during my driving.

With the car moving, I did have one segment where I "thought" the radiator temp was not dropping and the fans stayed on.   that was based on battery voltage stayed low at speed.    I have three points in coolant system for measuring temp.   the Holley Sniper sensor and display are at the block position, the console gauge and its sensor in the water pump inlet (radiator return) and the idiot light switch in swirl tank (can't recall its setting) and the coolant fan swith in the radiator exit upper side tank (i also don't know its setting but think I reqest about 160"

Most times at road speed sniper temp is 185 to 190 with console gauge abot 170 (just right of 160 mark).   I have very little time in stop and go traffic, temps do go up.   have not been there to see if temps level out above 200F.   (currently running 7psi cap (on pump suction).   Shutting down HOT after slow roll down drive, there has not had gurggling as coolant temp rises during heat soak.

another question. . .

When tighten shift linkage lock nuts, holding Gate in center L/R in 2 / 3 path is done, BUT how do one hold the trans shifter shaft?    ( In my long ago thinking bouts, I drew up a radial fine adjustment "clutch")

My brake pedal sits higher than the gas pedal. I would check the pedal stop screw and booster rod to see what can be adjusted.

#24 screws into #18 and is the pedal stop.

My brake pedal is also higher than the accelerator. This is why cutting the corner off the bottom right of the brake pedal helps get your foot off the gas and ON the brake.  I actually think I would prefer the gas pedal to be higher though.

the brake being lower does seem to be nice.  off throttle, turn foot and press down to contact brakes.   i'll think more about adding brake pedal to list of things to change now i know it is not the norm.

beautiful day, and with shift linkage still not right, instead of a drive I tried to take a couple pics.

question . . . can the shifter's gated plate be removed, or does it hold something together?

after last week's adjustment of the turn buckle, the as left was not really that good, but all gears could be selected.   after hour drive, i am not able to select fourth and fifth takes about as much force as i want to use.  definately feel the shifter and gear box detents are not aligned.   not sure if the "new" linkage has hysteresis/clearance issue.

thinking if i loosen / remove gate i can ignore the shifter detent and at least drive some more.

another question. . .

When tighten shift linkage turnbuckle lock nuts, holding Gate in center L/R in 2 / 3 path is done, BUT how does one hold the gearbox shifter shaft?

do the lock nuts need to be gorilla tight or just good enough

Yes, the gate  plate can be removed, as can the rubber seal. They don't hold anything in place. Bolts need to be tight. I've had mine slip.

Have you had someone watch the linkage as you go through the gears to ensure you don't have interference issues?

THANKS.....

i would recomend to some one new to adjusting linkage to drive with OUT the gate first!   that way, one feels how it should be (or the best it can be if damages have already occurred)

I have a shifter plate that have the gates machined off.  Intended for “spirited driving”.

Easy to swap back and forth between styles….

Information Removed for Disinterest.

Information Removed for Disinterest.

photos, Reverse, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 In That Order. The Plate Opening is 2.100" Wide X 3.860" Long.

...Information Removed for Disinterest.

MJ

@lastpushbutton posted:

My brake pedal is also higher than the accelerator. This is why cutting the corner off the bottom right of the brake pedal helps get your foot off the gas and ON the brake.  I actually think I would prefer the gas pedal to be higher though.

There is a restrictor bracket on the accelerator pedal shaft. I am not sure why it is needed but if you remove it you can readjust the gas pedal to be higher.

Clipping the corner on the brake does help for foot room. I did that to mine also.

i think i need a blue and white, instead of "john deere" wind sock

on the streets,

out for dinner at one of my normal places.

I took the TR6 out to keep battery up,   I found my self sitting side ways and weird having to actually move foot to left for brakes

Your car looks great! Great that you were able to stick with it. 7146 is just about to emerge from a 22 year "hiatus" - just in time for the snow to fly...

Ed

the weather was suppose to be rainy, but just cloudy and misty.   I thought that would be good lighting to take some pics.   (then took an hour drive!)

the dash was original covering, but from another since mine got "lost".   the rocker wiper & washer switches were move to gauge console.   the emergancy flasher switch moved to the dash illumination rehost position.  the light between speedo & tach is now a two color LED that provides warning of "low oil press" as blue and "high coolant temp" as red.   the small display on right for the Holley Sniper fuel injetion.   the left is Garmin 55.  steering wheel is Nardi that was when I got car.   the heat / ac controls, the lower lever is conected to double swith, center off, left turns on AC compressor and right opens heater solinoid  valve

side / front / rear views

corner views

some of the details i wanted

replace the "L" bumpers with bright bumperettes and the alignment of those with the hood gap, 

another the fitment and angle of the front spoiler.

(i am thinking . . . putting a wood "skid" under the recovery hooks, 1/2 X 3" oak)  ???

AND the exhaust tips !

the tire lettering , the valve stems and center logo all were indexed.

a challange was my desire to have an original air filter housing fit under the engine screen and not tilted.  my fiberglass tube had been shorten (for as purchase turbo installation).   But it gives a good view of engine.

my center engine screen had a little rust on the end strips so They got a New one from one of the vendors.   I don't know which one.   Does this look like something that maybe came on an earlier car.   that is the solid section is just tack welded to the screen !   looks cheap to me, (but it sure wasn't).   the gloss paint has dust stuck to it.

All looks like pretty skillful, detail oriented treatment, Joe!  Hope you are enjoying your rides!

first oil change...

they did four changes in the other lane while 5177 was there.   they were very careful and did a great job,   over coming obsticles like oil breather where to add oil removal was restricted by the swirl tank and valve cover baffled requiring slow pouring

You are a very brave man! I wouldn’t let a fast lube joint work on my lawnmower! A friend of mine had a repair shop and was always fixing stripped drain bolts, oil filters falling off, etc from these places.

I just noticed the “we are hiring” sign. Oh dear….

not a lot of shops in the area.   the local car guy that told me he used this shop also told me to only let the owner do it.   prior visit to discuss, the owner even told me to only let him!   And he did every thing related to the car.

Sounds good then!! Nice Pantera!

I believe that the engine screen is a reproduction of the standard "L" model cover that is reproduced by Steve Wilkinson.

Ron

delemma ? question . . .

I have a tire (right/front) with a slow leak, less than 2 psi day.

given I am "aware" now, would you top off pressure daily and drive.   (or bite the bullet and take tire to a shop while car is in the shed). 

drive now and let restoration shop correct when car goes back in Jan/Feb.   (or just let car stay garage till then )

spent long time, from different angles and don't see any thing in thread and the nut for valve stem is tight.

Maybe put some soapy water in a spray bottle and spray the valve stem then look for bubbles.  If the leak is not there then keep spraying until you find the leak.

THANKS. . . (i should have thought of that)

my suspession and first place I tried  .  the valve stem.

notice the long stream of bubbles that quickly appeared.   loosen first then snugged back.   the quick bubbling ceased.   (might be very slow foaming around threads though)

Here are photos of Wilkinson's engine screen.  It has nice powder coat paint and no dust.  The second photo is the bottom side.

I can't see the details of the transition from screen to solid, however from what I do see, that is made the way one on 5177.

My comment about dust is my path is very dusty and a gently spray of water did not rinse my screen and I was making excuse why mine was not clean.  proably static or maybe residue vapor from new engine.   thinking I will need a "mop" to wash it.

any ideal on a torque value for the valve stems.   I noticed at autozone, the package stated about 30 to 40.   where I think I only went to 15 INCH*lbs.

edit  . . . thoughts on wheel valve stem torque.   the instructions gave tighten value with no air pressure in tire.   I'm thinking air pressure would compress the rubber seal more and thus the stem nut would loosen, so maybe lower torque is expected and should be used?

preparing for changing ZF gear lube.   I forgot about this, My fill plug was drilled / tap for temp sender.   what would the specs to order a replacement plug?

Your fill plug is still good as is.  You can make it nicer by removing the sensor and installing a recessed hex plug.  If you want a new fill plug it is best to go to a Pantera vendor.  

Here is an example hex plug for $4 that could fill the hole where the sensor is.  I am not sure about the size you need but here is 3/8".  You might need smaller.  If you go this route be sure to put sealant on the plug threads.

https://www.autozone.com/fitti...BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

It looks like the original fill plug is still in the ZF, and that it was drilled and taped (in the recess for the hex) for the smaller diameter pipe thread.  

John

duh . . . putting a plug in lieu of the sender.   (why didn't I think)

I search my folder with ZF notes from info gathered over the years (mainly from here) and I think the plug is M24X1.5 with 17m hex

I seem to recall that the plug is M22-1.5, but I would need to verify.  You are correct that the hex is 17mm.

John

Is that going to work (as a sender)?

How do you fill the case to a level high enough to submerge the sender element if that is the fill hole?

Just wondering…

Rocky

that was part of that massive cluster.   It was on car when I bought it.   I am not going to use the sensor.

May be Hot fluid "swell" and just casing temp.   Also had bunges in engine oil pan,but they were removed  and welded over.   Forgot about this one, just noticed as I was looking to have gear oil changed.

@jfb05177 posted:

the heat / ac controls, the lower lever is connected to double switch, center off, left turns on AC compressor and right opens heater solenoid  valve.

Great innovation!  How did you connect the lower HVAC lever to open the heater solenoid valve?

A list of parts/part #'s please!  I'd like to do the same with my car.

Thanks!

I got vary little info on how things were done (  and they prevent car owners from talking to techs, a dollar per hours thing)

I saw invoice for a push pull windshield wiper. .not sure .   it is a swith with center doing nothing, lever ti left turns on compreesor,   to the right opens electic soilold  valve for heat.   But no way to modulate.   so far not been warm enough to test ac for comfort.   for the heater, once chill is knock out, cutting heater off, just running fan and engine keeps you warm

Now.    I know it would happen ....but not this soon....darn squirel ! broke right side front spoiler from valance.   had to ease back home with it a flapping

also didn't realize how fragile the spoiler would be.   any comments on how to repair and make better.    If I get new, still need a way to make better (holes very close to edge)

That appears to be a spoiler from Pantera Performance Center.  They are held on by small bolts.  Personally, I would be concerned about bending your body sheet metal if you hit something bigger with it.  I would dump it.

Yes, from PPC (but they don't have any)

here is pic of the front jacking plate added  (came in handy).   the yellow steel plate with hole to accept tire jack.

there was a car show in home town today.   32F and overcast.

Leaving home at sunrise.

I   was parked in the shade.   it was Cold.   talked the entire 7 hours.  in fact, I was talking when my name was called so I don;t know what the throphy was for.  about 140 cars of all types.

yes, PPC is out of them and no definite plans to get them back in stock.

They are made out of ABS plastic and if you want to strengthen/splint the, I would suggest locating some ABS sheet plastic and grabbing some ABS glue at your local hardware store. Glued onto the backside of the spoiler the splints will be invisible  

it looks like you may have torn one of the bolt holes. ABS will bend easily with a heat gun to create a splint for the lost hole.

Larry

And yes the last batch from Dennis was trimmed much too short and mounting them was a real pain.

I took my ABS sheet plastic and fabricated mounting tabs, attached them with ABS glue, and then reinforced with Plast-aid.

I also used larger bolts than supplied by Dennis and installed Nutserts for a more professional installation.

Larry

I got one with the trimmed too short lip.   putting on tabs at the hole is my plan.

good thought about the insert.  I'll look for available insert sizes

question.   were the holes  pre-drilled in the spoiler?

I love the look of that flat blade spoiler, and have received many comments on it over the years. But mounting has always been a challenge.

it does not come with any indication of where the holes should be. Dennis supplies 10-32 nuts and bolts but I’ve never mounted it in that matter. Prior to the Nutserts I used self drilling sheet metal screws.

Larry

I  believe the right side muffler has baffle rattle.

Oh, well.   What was done is done.

First, I wanted to show my kit I gathered for changing trans axle fluid.

The 17mm VW oil plug socket and a ratcheting wrench worked great.   Using 5/8 vynal tubing and a plastic elbow I made the funnel.  For the fill plug with temp sensor, I just got a new plug

To drain, I just used the tire scissor jack to  reach bottom plug. 

This was the First concerning finding.   The magnetic plug was FULL!

After draining, cleaning plug and refilling with about 3 ½ QUARTS, the amount in the pan look less, so I filled the emptied bottles and discovered only drained out less than 3 PINTS.!!!

The car had been over 2000 miles mostly under 60 mph.   I now hear a “gear whine” that is more noticeable that exhaust roar at 70 mph light throttle.   Coasting or some throttle reduces the whine.

More concerning to me would be the blackness of the gear oil.  When was the last time you changed it?   I would drive it a bit and change it again if it is that black.   What grade of oil did you use - I can't read it on the container.  Not synthetic is it?

I provided PennGrade Classic GL-4 80W90.   I KNOW that is what in used.

the ZF had been in barn storage for 3 decades with oil in it.

Ron Mccall rebuilt 4/16 and it remained in warehouse storage till mated to engine couple years ago.  first  test driving 12/23

there was no bad smell when drained.   hard to tell new from used, the new has a blue tint.

I am surprised how dark the new stuff looks.  Castrol is much lighter and clearer even after a year of use.

That PennGrade stuff has a strong greenish cast.

Who did initial fill?

Ron ships transmissions dry.

after smell test, color test, maybe it's ok and the mush on magnet was rust after rebuilt it as it sat for years.

I plan to drain after 2000 miles.

and, is gear whine just normal?

I made changes to my dash layout.

the Sniper display was originally taped beside the ac duct.   using ABS sheet, I fabbed a small pod that put it between the speedo and tach.

I took the front bumper emblem and mounted it in a horn button replacing the Nardi button

and a dash clock/stopwatch taped left of steering wheel

Great drive today.   trip on twisty two lane for late lunch.   even though a NC highway, very little traffic.   approx 120 miles round trip  (NC27 Benson to Carthage "Pic N Pig")

Drive the heck out of it, Joe!

It’s your dream car!

21 feburary, 2024. . . 5177 took a trip back to Klassic Kars, for some Warrenty corrections.   Mainly electrical, larger alternator, brighter dash lights, & turn signal switch.   Mecnically, the rear suspension was raised,  rekeyed all locks, the ABS front spoiler repaired and radiator side deflectors installed.

Delievered early this AM.    Heat and humidity in danger zone today and for next week so debating how much driving ir if I should do a trip

@jfb05177 posted:

anyone care to guess as of today how much I have in 5177  

More than any of us care to admit! 

Why think about it?

It looks like you’re enjoying your car! I hope so!

You can’t take it with you….

question about air conditioning ?

just how good should I expected.   NC today is high 90's, sunny and high humity.

my older pickup and SUV will require going less than max after an hour drive.

however, after 30 / 40 drive today I was tempted to lower the windows giving I was uncomfortable sweat.    Diffinately would not want to drive several hours.

the air out of the two dash vents was cool at hand but warm by the time it made it to face.

supposedly I have a new rotary system fitted into the original box.

when delevered yesterday the primary tech suggested I get glass tinted to max legal

@jfb05177 posted:

question about air conditioning ?

just how good should I expected.   NC today is high 90's, sunny and high humity.

my older pickup and SUV will require going less than max after an hour drive.

however, after 30 / 40 drive today I was tempted to lower the windows giving I was uncomfortable sweat.    Diffinately would not want to drive several hours.

the air out of the two dash vents was cool at hand but warm by the time it made it to face.

supposedly I have a new rotary system fitted into the original box.

when delevered yesterday the primary tech suggested I get glass tinted to max legal

I let you know if my “upgrades” are working…

-outside air intake to 25% of the fan

-air outlet for cabin air

finishing up a multi year resto on my 1972 and I run a AC compressor  OEM Sanden 4663. R134, all new lines, new evaporator  and orig condenser.  A/C is all stock and in stock location.  I have 2 ball valves in the heater lines and yesterday at abo50ut 5pm NJ time it was almost 90 degrees and dripping humidity and went out for a 30 minute drive and had mid 50 degree coming out the vents and with the infra red shooting inside the vents it was as low as a constant 34 degree.          

Today, high 90's but cloudy.  65/70 out the vents and cabin got to +85

I checked to see if heater valve might be leaking by;   without compressor, fan on vents were at cabin temp

Do you have shut off valves?

I got electrical valves that bypass the heater but still flow…

I think so and should, it is what I requested and I switch the heater on.

I feel that by the air out the vent not being warmer than the cabin with compressor switched off implied the electracal heater valve was blocking pretty good.

I noticed I have access to short sections of the tubes connected to the evaporator, I plan to attach thermal couple there for latter testing.

(the heat/humity today hit me pretty hard today so didn't spend any time outside)

Here is what I did for upgrading the A/C

https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...core-keeping-it-cozy

Update.  I am renaming to "bad luck cat"

basically back under tarp in the barn. Not that it is undrivable, just needs some rework....

about 2,000 miles since changing ZF gear lube,   looks like a lot of "dust" on magnet to me.  

back to shop due to loss of power and a few other items.

but like going to Dr, hadn't driven since I limped it home, then cranking to put on roll back it was probably back to 90%.

back from shop Friday.

replace holley sniper fuel pump for the lost of power

programing changes to help with stalling

wired up windshield wipers

said AC was as good as they could get it

next morning early, took a 300mrt drive to car show in Southport NC.   No trophy but horse from all the people I talked with.   drove back through a down pour !   trip down in high 90's and HUMID.   car ran hotter than I thought it should    Think I lost 5 lbs in the sauna!

while It won't help with operating temp, I added a over flow tank to my header tank vent.   it is 24 ozs, which is about the volume of air in my cold header tank (coolant thermal expansion volume).   when cold, over flow tank is empty and full when hot.   keeping the header tank full hot & cold, thus coolant reaches cap pressure at lower temp.  I mounted it using the right rear wheel well sheild bracket.

had a shift gate milled in an effort to accomudate my damaged linkage

after a few hours of driving since delieviered, the driver side muffler came loose.   this side has the O2 sensor.   the nuts for the collector clamp vibrated loose.

I had the same problem with the collector flange bolts / nuts.  Mine were double nuts and they still worked loose.  After the third time, I replaced the nuts with metal locking nuts...problem solved.

I suspect that there is some "seating" that takes place with the bell / ball ends after a few heat cycles and vibration.

John

Joe,

What part of your shifter linkage is damaged that required the shifter gate mods?

John, I am so very glad to see you out and enjoying the car After all you have been through getting the car out of the garage!!

the shop bought new, shifter to ZF, but didn't adjust to go easy, just FORCED shifts.   Telling me that was the way it should be.!   I haven't checked to see if it could be an easy correction.   I've been driving without gate and side to side free play is a lot.

as for collector nuts, I went with old school long brass nuts.

@jfb05177 posted:

the shop bought new, shifter to ZF, but didn't adjust to go easy, just FORCED shifts.   Telling me that was the way it should be.!   I haven't checked to see if it could be an easy correction.   I've been driving without gate and side to side free play is a lot.

What was bought new "from the shifter to the ZF"?

an assembly of the rods and u-joints from the shifter to the zf !

Hmmm.  Never seen that before.
Wish I was closer by.

By "new" do you mean all the parts were manufactured for you or did you use original parts that had been refurbished? What are you using for a trunnion bearing?

i think the shop bought every thing in the Wilkinson catologe.!

they initially used the rubber insert trunion, But I insisted they use a sperical bearing.

It should have been perfect, but I think the forceful shifting during testing loosen things up.   the free play requires shifter sliding along side of the upholtered frame,   ie where the gate was machined to.   with 2/3 is pretty close to center, (some times requires a little side to side wiggle)

correcting is on my wish list for latter.  sort of imposible to watch linkage to find loose section by your self.

Joe,  I would gladly drop down there to help with that, but you're aware of my newest commitments.  My schedule might be free enough if you head north this weekend, as I'll probably be stuck in Rocky Mount.  We could also address it at Fleet Fest assuming one of the trailer folks brings a floor jack.  Or possibly even at my house earlier that departure day, just I hate to be adjusting it under time pressure and possibly making it worse before better (it could happen).  I personally have had good experience with the (basically Hall I think) spherical trunion, though I have seen arguments for stock in the long run, but I don't put that much mileage on mine.  I'm basically now probably also wearing out some fabric going into R, but I am comfortably back to keeping my shift gate in.  Obviously, the trunion nut must be tight. - Lee

Thanks for Coming down Lee !

Nice to have some one else look things over.

Dang . . . should have taken a pic

So you two got the shifter linkage adjusted?

Do you have shims that you use in the gate to hold things study while you’re doing the adjustment?

I hear that can be helpful.

Actually, I bet if somebody 3-D printed something up, they’d sell quite a few of them!

Rocky

no adjustment attempted.   I did notice one connection.   the "nipple" on the ZF shifter input shaft.   with zf in 4th, the "nipple" could be wiggled to move the sifter about the amount machined.    during drive, if shifter pushed max right (where milled away) it would go into 4th, BUT if pushed to where 4 th gate should be, it could go into 2nd (MONEY SHIFT)

With the trans in gear you should not be able to rotate the input at all. Check the set screws inside the shifter box and make sure they are tight.

https://drive.google.com/file/...cE62yv3r-7Fa-Mn/view

the input shaft does not wiggle (well veryverylittle).   the nipple that is pinned to that shaft is wiggling.   not much at that diameter, but is significant at the shifter.

my gut feeling for repair is to drill/ream the pin hole larger and new fitted pin.

just the location would require right hand drill and a steadier hand than mine

without the gate is the way to go, BUT just for looks, I want a gate

thanks, on tapper pin

item #3 Connector . . . reminded me of a hose nipple

some thing new

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiCHfpUssx8

exhaust pop, right side,   Idle, slow creep and cruising.   loud enough to get people to look!

How do the plugs look?

Do you have a waste spark ignition system? Sounds like a fouled spark plug.

using a distrubuter so just single spark.   since I've had it back the performance has been questionable, but this is embarrising and probably doing damage.

In fact I think that right muffler is restricting as the pulse of "normal" is very noticably less than left side.

right now I'm just going to leave it parked.   we've got a week of heavy rains and wind

sounds like a loose baffle in the muffler

question .   what is the location to access spark plug removal,   from the top or from underneth?

Both depending upon which plug.   My quarter windows are removed so you can get to some through those on the side.  But pull the screen and side inner panels first in both cases.

I only remove the screen and change the plugs for the top.  YMMV

John

"don't ask me how i did it, I just did it, it was hard"

changed the right back plugs.   from the top.

It did make a differance.   the popping at idle seems to went away.   still can just hear random popping at cruise.

the right muffler is still significantly quiter than left.

Joe, I had been up at the lake where I have forgotten my p/w for this account, until this afternoon (at home my PC remembers it or something).  Not sure what all has transpired (maybe Four Oaks show, your appointment, etc.) since we drove it last Thursday when I thought it was running well overall, with the exception of 2 "hiccups," but I didn't push it very hard.  Obviously these passenger bank plugs are fouled (2nd from left in pic maybe not so bad, hard to tell from that angle).  Probably the driver's side are, too.  I would strongly suspect your heated wideband O2 sensor is also now fouled, which will keep your system from learning and proper operation (as you know, been there, done that).  Those can be a bit pricey, when I last replaced mine it was around $130 from Summit with tax and shipping, and I re-fouled mine and new plugs very quickly, the reason I switched back to a carb as you know.  But I may have had some other exhaust leaks at the time still, and my EFI system model had more of a reputation for that way-rich idle circuit than your system.  Do you have an O2 sensor tool?  I have one, but they're not very expensive, I have the sorta cylindrical type that plugs onto a probably 3/8" ratchet, with a slot to clear its wires.  Usually easy to replace, easier than the plugs I suspect if the shop did the bung for it with easy access in mind, but the bung needs some upward orientation, as I'm sure they knew.  I "think" you may have the Sniper 2, which has a good reputation if so, but you still need some knowledgeable tuning help it sounds like, and that's hard to get in areas like ours for aftermarket throttle body EFI.  Maybe you can confirm that so others have a clearer picture here.  --Lee

@jfb05177 posted:

"don't ask me how i did it, I just did it, it was hard"

changed the right back plugs.   from the top.

It did make a differance.   the popping at idle seems to went away.   still can just hear random popping at cruise.

the right muffler is still significantly quiter than left.

Not pretty… I would go for a “spirited” drive.. rpm, going thru the gears….

plugs look like what my dad had in his car when he was 83 years old… (35mph top speed)

Lee, following Four Oaks, the right side exhaust was popping hard enough to possible bust a muffler.   the day after the popping occured at idle.   the youtube audio above.

the new right side plugs helped,   test drive, I can hear a light popping less often and had a carb hickup.   I'm still concern that the exhaust pulse out of the right is still much less than left.  wonder if unbalance back presssure is causing problems.

LaMans,  driving is the Plan!.   Given I aint that good of a driver, I do stay in the lower rpms, but avoid Lugging below 1800.    plan to start taking shifts to 3500

I don't think low RPMs are an issue here, both Joe and I were hitting reasonably high RPMs a week ago on his car (Ron McCall swapped out my ring gear to 3.77, which I have now gotten accustomed to, so if anything I was mentally surprised to see Joe's tach going as high in each gear shifting naturally, but Joe still has a stock ring gear).  Not to mention that when I drove his, I "missed" 2 shifts due to the ZF in the 4th gate still hitting 2nd, briefly, not under continued acceleration.  It's interesting because the stick still settles to the left side of the 4th gate even in 4th (probably related to the rotation in his diagram at the "tapper pin").  But overall the shifting was so close to excellent, and I only had a couple hours at the time, and by the time we both did a country drive, it didn't make sense to break loose the turnbuckle to try to "perfect" it.  All the joints (trunion, shifter u-joints) appeared tight/solid visually watching the other go through the gears. You just learn to go all the way to the right side of the gate to hit 4th and 5th, not hard to do.  He had his resto shop follow George P's 500 HP 351C formula with this build (pretty bombproof), a couple of brief "missed" shifts hitting 4,500+ certainly wouldn't be an issue here, none close to redline.  But they're also not going to fix any fouled O2 sensor.  I definitely wouldn't have suspected any valvetrain, etc., issue a week ago, but with some new mileage since then, and I haven't seen this new issue firsthand, and I see the couple flames in his video from the passenger tailpipe, which I think was still on the fouled plugs.  Swapping out the driver's side plugs will probably continue to help, for now.  But it's not a carbureted engine and still in fairly early stages of EFI tuning (which "should" be self-learning but isn't always that simple), and neither his nor my main driving with our P-cars is in particularly "idle circuit" places, our drives are usually substantially highway.  I don't claim to be a master mechanic by any means, it's why I'm trying to add some details for the collective brain trust here, but I've had up to 2 P-cars at once, over 25+ years, I've done most projects by now, most several times over.  Normally I would agree with the spirited driving theory, but I doubt that's going to be the fix in this case.  I also doubt there's any "mechanical" issue.  FWIW.

I’m thinking Marlin meant a “taper” pin - (tapered, like angled, and pronounced like the animal, a tapir), and not a pin that is “tapped” into the hole….

But I have been wrong before, just ask my wife!

😎

It looks like the plugs are wet, possibly with oil?

A picture of Taper Reamers and Taper Pins.

Reamers are turned 'Clock-Wise'...Backing-Out by turning it 'Counter Clock-Wise', will destroy the cutting edges! This will Chip-Off the Cutting Edge, and make it forever Useless. Look at the Ends of these Reamers and see the 'Square' Drive End. This Denotes a 'Hand' Reamer. (Not a 'Machine' Reamer) The square drive is used in a 'Tapping' Handle, or a 'T' Handle. Most don't know, the Hand reamer Square drive, can also be used in a Rachet Handle with a 8-Point or 12 Point Socket. CW Only.

...A Tapered Pin in the Shifter Shaft 'Adapter', with a Correctly reamed Bore, would allow ZERO Movement, forever (almost)!!

MJ

@jfb05177 posted:

Lee, following Four Oaks, the right side exhaust was popping hard enough to possible bust a muffler.   the day after the popping occured at idle.   the youtube audio above.

the new right side plugs helped,   test drive, I can hear a light popping less often and had a carb hickup.   I'm still concern that the exhaust pulse out of the right is still much less than left.  wonder if unbalance back presssure is causing problems.

LaMans,  driving is the Plan!.   Given I aint that good of a driver, I do stay in the lower rpms, but avoid Lugging below 1800.    plan to start taking shifts to 3500

Once you figure out the bigger problem, You also may consider changing to hotter spark plugs (if the plugs left and right don’t have a better color just to suit your driving style ) do a compression test while you are at it!
That the muffler may have a baffle loose and blocking the exhaust flow is a possibility…

...I have Tested ALL the Autolite Plugs! 24 is too cold 26 is Too HOT and will cause Pinging in a 'Normal' running Engine. 25's are Perfect by My Testing!

You can go to Hotter #26 Plugs, but until You fix the Problem of Oil being sucked into EVERY Cylinder of That Bank, you're just going to be Burning Oil and Replacing Plugs!! ALL 4 Cylinder Spark Plugs Are 'Oiled', Equally!! There is NO Fix For it. I would Take the Manifold Off, I'll bet it's the Intake Gasket! Intake Gaskets are Very Tricky to get Right!!! They Eather Seal Correctly or It's Very Easy to get them Out of Place. On 4V Ports the Gasket covers less than 1/4" around the Perimeter Bottom. That is why I invented the '4 Stud' Guiding System, it Holds the Gasket Correct, while you drop the Manifold Straight Down! ALL of that Oil is NOT Normal! Yes! I Invented it! I first posted it here Many Years ago. Enough said.

How does the Other Bank of Plugs Look? NOT as Fouled, then it's the RIGHT Gasket. All 8 Plugs Fouled...It's the PVC Valve OR the Entire Manifold is Not sealing against the Valley, My Guess.

MJ

MJ and all, thanks for your responses, I'm learning some things, both about tapered holes and pins, as well as oil consumption.  I've always respected your expertise in your knowledge base here.  I think this will help Joe move forward on these issues, which is all I'm trying to facilitate.

Link to thread for Marlin's 4 stud guiding system for intake R&R, so others can see:

https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...old-guide-studs-5-16

Is there a way to confirm that to be an issue first?  (His is a "new" build, at this point maybe a few years old but with minimal mileage).  Do EFI fuel pumps have a check valve to stop fuel flow when not powered in case we had to disconnect a fuel line?  I have a ball valve shutoff near the tank on mine now, but Joe may not.  The shop that did his resto is hours away.  Joe has been hoping to attend the Naval base Fleet Fest event in Norfolk in a month organized by the Long Island POCA chapter, as will I.  Intake R&R is not my strong suit, but I have gasket scrapers, torque wrench, etc. and have assisted with it a few times, I understand basic torque patterns and can look up torque specs.   I have no idea what intake gasket system they used, but suggestions welcome, for whoever does the R&R--also for valve cover gaskets if they need to be replaced.  I'm guessing dizzy doesn't have to come out, probably just cap to come off?  It's been years since I had a 351C.  I know it's a dry intake.

MJ - THANKS for Your input, I read every word.   I might take fore ever to act but all you have said has been noted and hopefully will be done.  

My "reasoning" for only right bank plugs was left exhaust sounded GOOD while right was popping, if I pull to look, just as well replace.AND I was exhuasted and sore after doing one side!   double dose acetaminophen not helping today.

the as found gaps were ~0.035 and that is what I went back with.   Next time I due 0.045

I don't see any blue smoke at idle, cruising or moderate acceleration.  (not to say it is not there)

I installed a clear fuel filter between PCV and carb to see how much blowby might be happening.   400 miles and filter is dark, but no oil in bottom.  At idle and filler cap open (PVC connected) there is air being sucked in valve cover.  also in 5000 miles, I might could say cold oil level is only slightly lower.

I also think a compression test would be nice.  but more work than I want to do

today's tank of gas drive has been "one gear down" so rpms ran about 2300 to 3500, with a couple pulls to 4500.    (local back roads here at 45 and 55 mph).  actually a whole lot more fun! than 1800 to 2300 cruising.

I'm not betting on a couple more years

and thinking about cancelling reservations for Norfolk (but hold on to HOPE)

one "bank" popping is more than likely ONE cylinder and could be as simple as one plug wire is loose or bad.  it's highly unlikely a muffler is causing it.  The car is running very, very rich as evidenced by the condition of the plugs you removed.   You need to get to the bottom of that but, a bad plug wire or plug would cause it to pop.  Tell me how I know.

Buy a $50 standard ignition products plug wire set and cap and rotor and replace all the plugs.  Start there.  then tune the carb mixture.  basic stuff to see where you are then.

I also have a compression gauge (if it wasn't stolen, I haven't seen it lately) and remote starter switch, not really hard to check compression, but this is a new bombproof 351C build, that won't likely be an issue.  I never saw blue smoke, but neither of us was following from behind on our drives nor saw it in rearview.  Same should be true for plug wires, cap and rotor.  But I am not a diagnostician.  But we do need to isolate the reason for wet/fouled plugs, whether from oil or rich A/F mixture.  I tend to agree it looks like oil as a couple have speculated.  If excess fuel is washing down cylinder walls, a normal oil dipstick level can be misleading.

...Thank You!!!!

No, Thank you!

Here’s a good way to change the plugs on the passenger side.

Three-quarter inch open end wrench on the spark plug socket.

Wheel and splash shield removed.

Sit on a little yellow chair…

Get the driver’s (left) side from the top.

Rocky

1

..Some of Us change out our own Spark Plugs. Most of You Don't. For those who do, here is a Trick to make life much easier!

First, when I do the Plugs, I start with the Right Bank, cylinders 1,2,3,4. I want to start with the Hardest to reach First, so as I proceed through the Work, it gets Easier. I start by pulling all the Plugs wires, making sure they are legibly Numbered at or near the Boot. All out of the way I lay Deep over the fender wearing Flannel Pajama bottoms, so as to never scratch the finish. Starting with #1, I pull all 4 Plugs, so as to Compare. After gapping the 'Autolite 25' plugs EQUAL to .045", I Install all of the Plugs starting with #1. Put the Wires back on then go to the left side and start again with #'s 5,6,7,8. First the Hardest to reach #5. And remember Wires 5 and 6 tend to arc-over as they fire one after the other. If I remember correctly.

NOW, the Point of this posting. When installing the 'New' Plug I Highly Do NOT Recommend using a Socket to Start the Threading IN!! 9 times Out of 10...the Thread 'Naturally' will 'Want' to 'Grab' Crooked and Cross-Thread. While using a Socket the 'Installer' will Not have the 'Feel' to notice this, until it is Too Late. Especially when dealing with the Treaded Spark Plug bores of Aluminum Heads!!

I have been using this 'Helper' for decades! I Don't believe I 'Invented' it. But, I have never seen this posted on this Forum.

During World War II, in the Factories the Saying was "Easy Does It". If it does Not 'fit'... Don't force it! Something is Not right.

A 2" Piece of Rubber Tubing, gives You a good grip on starting the Plug, with the Fingers. You can FEEL the Threads Line-Up, with the Fingers and the Plug can Screwed, Smoothly,  all the way into Snugged Up, THEN remove the Tube and Use a Socket to Properly Tighten.

Never try to start the Tread with a Wrench/Socket, just good advise born of Experience.

Life can be Much Easier.

All the Best!

...When installing the Plugs, using the Fingers, saves all of that 'Wrenching'.

One last thing...Using the Tube, allows the Plug to Align Centrally with the Threaded Bore. You want to be Careful NOT to allow the Plug Threads to Scrape into the Pocket of Debris, laying just outside the Opening!

Good Luck with it!!

MJ

MJ, that is a great post of making our lives a little easier. Thank you again for sharing your experiences to make ourselves and mistresses happy. And so simple also!

Ken

...LAST! If You believe there is any possibility that One or More Plug Wires may be Arcing to Ground, or Crossing-Over Together??

Try the 'Total Blacked-Out Test'. Where the Deck is opened for an Observer (you), In a Garage, All Lights Off, Blacked Out, and a Helper starts the Engine (always in Neutral) and gives it a Couple of Moderate Revs.

You might just be Amazed at what You Observe!! And check the 'Coil Wire' and D. Cap, Also. All 'Things' will be Revealed!

"Try It! You'll Like It!!"

MJ

Four Oaks NC Acorn days 2024

the most fun was talking with folks.   Several got to crawl behind the wheel.

Oh, during the 30 mile trip home is when extreme mis firing started.

attended the Fuquay-Varina NC, The Cruisers of American Legion Post 116 car show.

was given the center of show spot.

and the announcer/dj told crowd to come and look.   apperantly it embarresed 5177 and she peed a little bit!

told by Judges there was no "class" I belong, so given 3rd RAT ROD!

That looks to be a lot of coolant . Did you overfill the expansion tank or do you have a loose hose clamp?

Larry

Over filled, I had let it warm up (200) and level out before leaving.  I have the pressurized expansion tank arrangment.

BUT during the 10 minutes pulling in, got up to 220F! then it was shut down.

So, I am not too happy about how quickly it gets HOT in stop/go traffic.  don't think it could survive an extended period in city driving.

Car looks great!  I wish I knew you were there, I would of went down to check your car out. I'm fairly close by, in Cary. Finally got a day with no rain and went for a quick ride today, but still a bit too hot & humid with no ac. We'll have to meet up one of these days.

John

Next time skip that warm-up procedure. You’re just heat soaking the engine block without giving it adequate fan-sourced airflow.

In an ideal system your fans alone should be able to maintain a functional temperature  

220° is concerning but not a dangerous temperature.

Your only real problem may just be overfilling the expansion tank. Time will tell.

Larry

@marlinjack posted:

...read my write-up about the Radiator Cover. Maybe it's Time to Up-Date the Fans. I'm Not going to Get Into the Thermostat and Restrictor Plate! Or 50/50 coolant to Water, Or Un-Bled Air in the System, improper Rad Cap Pressure...and on, and on, and on...

There are Dozens of Reasons!

MJ

@lf-tp2511 posted:

In an ideal system your fans alone should be able to maintain a functional temperature

Larry

Low speed with Both Pusher Fans on is my Problem.   The temp never levels out, just keeps creeping up   like coming off road 190 no fans, within a minute fans on automaticly.  the fan are new from vendor unknown (Wilkenson ?) with shrouded multiple blades.    increasing speed back >45mph and couple minutes the fans shut off (radiator outlet <160F switch)

As for coolant system over all, I have sides and top on radiator air inlet. deflectors   the MJ 180 thermostat and plate, pre diluted NAPA, new neck and 13psi cap.   Flow cool pump, over drive pully.   the swirl tank top is vented to the expansion tank with the 13p cap.   the left top radiator vented back to expansion and expansion bottom routed to heater return.

at the risk of being ridiculed . . .I'll share an ideal

I have added to the improvised coolant arangment.   when COLD, I completely filled the expansion tank, then let engine idle to 200 (fans come on, but let temp creep).  the thermal expansion releives about 20 ozs.   then when back cold the level in expansion is about 6" down.   basicaly has stayed like that after driving

I Thought I could add a small (~24oz) recovery tank and thus store the thermal expansion coolant and let it get suck back in when cold.   thus cold the level in the cold expansion tank is near full.   this actually worked during several excursions.

NOW when city driving and the coolant creeps to >220, then shut down heat soak, that little bit extra thermal coolant releived will "flash" when vented to small recover tank and thus dump its 20 oz holdings.   (why puddle was so big)

now I could remove the small recovery tank, But I "worry" when the expansion tank starts cold down 20oz, the compresibility of that air volume delays the coolant pressurization up to cap relief.    I am considering that a larger recover tank would contain the flashing.

BUT back to my REAL concern is fans can't maintan temp!!  I am HOPING when summer temps drop from >90 down to fall temps <80F I'll be able to do city driving.   so I can make the Norfolk gathering late October

Your system should "find its own level" (if it's like mine) in the expansion tank.  My expansion tank runs about 1/2 full.  I would not be surprised if that volume is more than 20 oz.  That's less than a big glass of beer.

So if you overfill (expansion tank FULL), and then it vents into the overflow tank, and gets sucked back in when cooled, it's still overfilled.

My advice....  Let  your system reach its happy level (after dumping some coolant on a couple local drives), and it won't do it anymore.

I might suggest you don't ONLY drive it to shows, where venting is a little embarrassing (but not harmful), and ensure your cooling system has stabilized the fluid level first.  This will give you more first-hand experience with the behavior of the system.

Perhaps you have done all this.

I can't comment on the thermal observations you are seeing.  Your comments make sense about the fans shutting off via the thermo switch while driving at speed, so that’s a good data point on the ACTUAL temperatures…

I'm sure you have a "calibration" on your gauges and are highly confident that 220* indicated on your gauge is 220* at the sender.

Anyway - let your system vent, find it's equilibrium, and then drive it for a bit.

Has it done anything wrong except push out "excessive" fluid (which isn't technically "wrong") yet?

• Boiling sounds at engine shutdown?

Rocky

Rocky, you are correct in your comments.   prior driving after expansion tank has "found its level" like you said.   as I stated, I thought I could improve on the "self venting" reconfiguration with a catch can (reducing the compressable volume).   the "peeing" at car show was not any thing I was surprised about, just embarasing especially with all the attention 5177 got!  (posted pic to be funny)

the "peeing" was silent, so no boil gurgling has been heard

But above is not my concern.   The fans in city driving are not stopping the temp to rise.  Thus don't think it would be able to do extended city driving.   while insuffent air flow is first though, the fans and radiator are better than original, so could it be coolant flow.  even on hottest most humid days, above 45 mph up to 80 mph (fastest I've been) the temps run about 190F

I have four temperture indicatures.   the Sniper digital display with sender in front of block (assume to be accurate), the Vegia dash with sender in pump inlet (just an indication normally about 20 below block), the fan on light from switch in radiator outlet and idiot light switch in swirl tank.  (I have not seen idiot light yet though)

So anyway, your system cools as you get up to speed.

Marlin’s “blast pressure” thread gives us something to think about.

Are you certain that your fans are not a restriction to the airflow that is needed? Do you know for a fact that the fans running in the correct direction?

Rocky

It sounds like you should have a robust cooling system design. So this is a little puzzling.

My car, which is similar to yours in this area, and has lower capacity Mariah fans, stays cool, and does not have an overheating problem at idle & low speed.

to my knowledge, My fans are the Mariahs.  by rotation arrow, by fan angle, by air being sucked in front and blown out under car, I think direction is correct.   the fans shrouds are just touching core.   I have capibility to get an air velocity profile, just haven't felt like doing it

at speeds >45mph for a few minuted, fans switch off.   I have side and top deflectors and the same spoiler as You.   while I've thought about blocking off the ovals in the lower valance, I don't think that would help at low speeds.

I have been thinking about a second "spoiler" just behind the steering rack bracket thinking it would give a higher velocity to the air dumped from lower valance and create low pressure at the radiator exhuast area.   But that would mainly help with at speed cooling that is OK.

I too am stumped why cooling with fans is not better.

jfb,  might I suggest you extend the expansion tank overflow tube so it dumps behind the rear wheel. If it starts dripping like that at speed it could cause a real safety issue.

Also, I don't want to highjack your thread but where did you find the giant black panther?  I have been looking for one for years.

Thanks,

Doug M

Greymalkin

https://www.amazon.com/VIAHART...3448949d5b327bcb06a8

I added "whiskers".   at the show, an 8YO panther expert said the eyes and added whiskers were correct.   I was surprised too at how much attention it got.   Several Ladies wanted their picture taken with it (like the Farrah Fawcett ad)

Love the collar !!  Thanks for the info and the link

DM

https://youtu.be/T6cT_ecX2BY?si=eMBNj0EPMV-BiEew

interesting attention at local car show !!!

After pulling into parking lot, I noticed an Officer walking briskly towards Me.   The Lt. introduced Himself, like the beginning of a traffic stop, then smiles and proceeds to tell me how the Pantera was his dream car and had noticed me coming through town in past.   The other drivers and spectators circled and watched to see why Officer was there.  after looking car over I asked if he wanted to get in and try pedals,etc.  He handed over cuffs and pistol and crawled in!   at end of show, as others were lining up to exit, a black unmarked Tahoe with blue lights flashing entered and pulled behind me.   the Lt and 3 other Officers exited to hear me crank up!

@jfb05177 posted:

interesting attention at local car show !!!

After pulling into parking lot, I noticed an Officer walking briskly towards Me.   The Lt. introduced Himself, like the beginning of a traffic stop, then smiles and proceeds to tell me how the Pantera was his dream car and had noticed me coming through town in past.   The other drivers and spectators circled and watched to see why Officer was there.  after looking car over I asked if he wanted to get in and try pedals,etc.  He handed over cuffs and pistol and crawled in!   at end of show, as others were lining up to exit, a black unmarked Tahoe with blue lights flashing entered and pulled behind me.   the Lt and 3 other Officers exited to hear me crank up!

The beginning of the story would have created an instant bowel movement…

I would have expected to hear the words “I finally got you…”

...I would have asked them if I could Have a 'Get out of Jail FREE, Card!'

Did he notice the hogleg you normally keep between the seat and the console?

Or was that in another life?

😎

@jfb05177 posted:

interesting attention at local car show !!!

After pulling into parking lot, I noticed an Officer walking briskly towards Me.   The Lt. introduced Himself, like the beginning of a traffic stop, then smiles and proceeds to tell me how the Pantera was his dream car and had noticed me coming through town in past.   The other drivers and spectators circled and watched to see why Officer was there.  after looking car over I asked if he wanted to get in and try pedals,etc.  He handed over cuffs and pistol and crawled in!   at end of show, as others were lining up to exit, a black unmarked Tahoe with blue lights flashing entered and pulled behind me.   the Lt and 3 other Officers exited to hear me crank up!

Reminds me of driving home from a PCNC meeting late one night years ago... I got pulled over, but it turned out the officer was a gearhead and a fan of the Pantera and wanted a closer look.  We spent about an hour on the side of the road showing him the Pantera and talking cars.  In that time we had about 3 other patrol cars come by to check on what was going on - apparently he was the shift captain and would be unusual for him to make a traffic stop.  Turns out he knew my family (years past) and we connected again at Concorso Italiano later that year.

week end of driving started out good.

car show saturday,Triple Crown Sanford NC

then couple hour drive sunday. . .BUT

Had to call Hagerty   - - -note, trying to use Hagerty auto roadside assist would not work due to short VIN.   took an hour to finally speak to person, then 2 hour wait for roll back.   I tried AAA, but they didn't want to.

Oh, coolant dump!   Hope I didn't hurt engine as I drove a couple minutes to find pull off.

Lower swirl connection.

st Jude, Dunn, NC show. 

I was told there was a resemblance . . .

...THAT'S Exactly WHY, Most of Us Use 2 Hose Clamps at Each Hose End! One Clamp WILL Fail! Two Clamps...Can't.

In My View

MJ   

Jfb

If you have a vent line running from the top of the radiator to the swirl tank I would also do a check to ensure the vent tube running under the car is not blocked with rust or sludge. This is common and can happen quickly.  You should be able to do a quick bleed test at the banjo connection at the top rhs of the radiator. If it does not flow coolant  you could well have an air pocket in the top of the radiator despite having filled the expansion tank to the top.

If your overall cooling system has an air pocket you will have the cooling issues you describe . The upper thermostatic fan switch  can also become not immersed in coolant and then be spasmodic in triggering your fans, contributing to the overheating. 

I had to pull and replace this tube as the blockage , as I discovered after cutting the original tube up , ran almost the full length of the original vent tube. A new tube was the only solution.

need to break THIS routine;

Saturday great car show

Sunday waiting beside road for roll back

car show "roll in" you tube.  Listen to that kitty purr !

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/SeKDEpm6gCKPsMYF/

the first meeting of Carolina Panteras Coffee & Doughnut.

short vid from Emerald Ilse show last week (not me)

and pic from today's show at Fuquay-Verina High School Booster

I ventured into "big City" for C&C

https://www.youtube.com/clip/U..._WEF3d2LqkB4n6a5jNYK

update . . .

5177 has been out of Shop for a Year now with 4 months back. 

so in about 8 months, I've put 10,000 miles!  that is about 300 miles per week and no more than 150 miles from home

a 5 minute clip

car will be out of commission for a while (:

went to lunch prior to a planne d couple hour drive.   cranking after lunch and brake pedal had more travel than normal so back to barn to look.   found front resoivor LOW, then crawled under rear to see inside left rear wheel with paint bubbled!