Engine build… just because I want to…

Roland,  The trick flow heads is what I went with also.  I still need to assemble the engine.  Great Start.  Are you going to get another Cleveland Block or what?  Larry

Good choice. I admit that it is difficult to resist aluminum heads especially when they correct some of the issues the iron ones are stuck with.

I went early in that decision with Ford A3 heads.

I wish you the best of results.

I’m trying to get smart and identifying blocks
Did a lot of reading, but everything is contradicting itself again in the next article

Does anybody know what block this is

I did go through the drain plug hole into the engine with my endoscope and it is a 4 bolt  main

The casting number on your block denotes a 73 or 74 Ford model year 351c block. It is correct for a '73 or '74 Pantera and is a regular production block with the CF, Cleveland foundry icon, and is not an "Australian block".

The standard 2v 351c would have the same casting ID of D2AE-CA but would only have 2 bolt mains. Some 4v Ford builds use the 2 bolt main blocks also.

The 351C CJ block would have the same casting numbers but have 4 bolt main caps.

The XE id blocks came about because the 4 bolt blocks under extreme racing stresses would develop cracks in the blocks webbing near the center main bearing cap and run up the side of the closest piston bores.

That indicates flexing or twisting in the block. The XE blocks are thicker in the bearing webs and where the oil pan bolts up, "the oil pan rails",  are solid and not hollowed out on top of that "rail" like the regular production blocks are. So that in effect acts as  a "reinforcing girdle" cast into the block to reduce or eliminate the block flexing under extreme stress of racing.

The cylinder walls are also thicker so they can take larger over bores.

So all of that good added strength adds about 35-40 pounds to the overall weight of the block.They definitely are hefty for sure.

Some credit Warren Trope for the existence of the XE block? He raced a Group 4 Pantera in the US. His father was a development engineer for Ford at the time. That led to internal influences at Ford. I can't image how that could have happened?

Here are two pictures of the pillow XE block.  The first was available about 1975 as a Ford service block and just had heftier features and the XE casting number. This one pictured has a 1977 casting date. It is thought by some that there is another special run made for NASCAR about 1980.

The "pillows" increased the water capacity of the block by adding pockets to the side. It is often referred to as the "pillow block" because of it's appearance.

Early on, the car magazines referred to these "racing blocks" as "THE Australian block" as they were all cast at Geelong, Australia and bear that foundries icon. Later as XE blocks and finally as "NASCAR BLOCKS".

At one point ALL "Cleveland blocks" were cast in Australia but not all are the XE blocks so that adds to the confusion.

They came about too late in the "development" of the 351c to benefit the factory raced Group 4  Panteras. They simply didn't exist yet at that time.

This area?CF

Us / Cleveland cast march 13, 1973 CJ (4 bolt)

I bought this engine… it was Supposedly a rebuild with low miles on it but something went wrong…

I do not know what was done to this engine or what is inside.. all I know is that it did some noise between tick and clack. I did not hear it running…

I have not gone inside to determine what it is because I bought it just today..It’s a gamble… Let’s see if I get lucky..

Good find!  Good luck!

By the way – looks like you got lots of other good stuff with that block…..

Chrome intake manifold…

Fuel pump block off plate…

Oil pressure extender…

Flywheel…

Nice Score!

But you might change out that restrictor plate to go to a real 351 Cleveland configuration!

@Rocky

Intake (extra shiny) for sale

fuel pump block off plate (jet black)for sale

Oil pressure extender (with patina) for sale

cylinder heads (?) for sale

the rest of that may stay …

the restrictor plate should have a bigger hole correct?!!

lifter bores are going to be done too.. unless I get lucky ✅

Yes, The restrictor place should have a hole as big as the depression that’s stamped in it.  That is so that the little hat from the Cleveland thermostat can fit through it.

I believe the hole is ABOUT 20 mm….

Congrats on another project Roland..lol  What model intake is that?

@with regards posted:

Congrats on another project Roland..lol  What model intake is that?

I’ll try to find out tomorrow…

“…. another Project Roland.. lol” just tell me what am I doing with my life if I don’t twiddle on something… I wouldn’t know.🤔

you saw it… laying on the floor under the car , all dirty… Big smile on my face…

I didn't know that was yours!  Cool!  Scoop looks great!  Pic?

when you're supposed to do something else you'll know..;-)

@with regards posted:

I didn't know that was yours!  Cool!  Scoop looks great!  Pic?

when you're supposed to do something else you'll know..;-)

True… wife tells me …😔

the spoiler thread is

https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...revson-front-spoiler

@rocky posted:

Yes, The restrictor place should have a hole as big as the depression that’s stamped in it.  That is so that the little hat from the Cleveland thermostat can fit through it.

I believe the hole is ABOUT 20 mm….

Pic of the Robert Shaw thermostat and blocking plate for reference.

@LeMans850i posted:

True… wife tells me …😔  

the spoiler thread is

https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...revson-front-spoiler

Our wives definitely have influence.. lol

@with regards posted:

Congrats on another project Roland..lol  What model intake is that?

It’s an Edelbrock performer and its for sale..😊

2V or 4V?

@husker posted:

2V or 4V?

4V while the heads on the engine are 2V

Heads are coming up for sale too..

I am looking for a 2V Edelbrock air gap

What are you asking for the intake?

@LeMans850i posted:

I’ll try to find out tomorrow…

“…. another Project Roland.. lol” just tell me what am I doing with my life if I don’t twiddle on something… I wouldn’t know.🤔

you saw it… laying on the floor under the car , all dirty… Big smile on my face…

That was when I was young, now I'm still dirty, I'm still smiling, but I'm not on the floor under the car anymore, I have a lift, it's much less tiring and much better for my old back.

@rene4406 …that keeps me limber…. Hobby contortionist 😂

I took one head off: it has forged aluminum pistons,  flat top, CNC’ed to fit, recently bored cylinders 4.03, seems like the ring gap was not set properly some marks, but nothing terrible.. certainly didn’t run very long since rebuilt.

seems to be 3.85” stroke..

Hydraulic flat lifters, Manley pushrod guides, Harland roller rockers,

On the lifter bores i wanted to do “the upgrade” anyway..

I have not looked at the bearings yet if the lifter issues killed the bottom end…

the cylinder heads… big wow… forgot to make pics but they are super custom!

4 V heads with pinned inserts in the intake to make them the size of the 2V very nicely done ✅  head also is machined for the rocker studs which are new as well… that was quite the positive surprise….

@LeMans850i posted:

@rene4406 …that keeps me limber…. Hobby contortionist 😂

You aren't getting anything out of the exercise unless it hurts.

The heads… reduced intake for better low RPM Drivability .. perfectly done.. can’t feel anything in the port, head modified for lifter studs.. I didn’t know that when I got there trick flow heads… I would’ve been happy with those..

Nice heads

@panteradoug posted:

Nice heads

Yes!! And has stainless steel valves too..

the engine was built as a 393 Competition

I already have the Trick Flow, so I’m going to sell these..

What happened to the engine please read:

https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...e-death-of-an-engine

@husker posted:

2V or 4V?

I was wrong.. 2V

it was a 4V intake that was converted to 2V

But they have the big valves?

All that epoxy is concerning to me. The stuff has the nasty habit of not staying were you put it and winding up in the cylinders.

In the days of racing Clevelands, that was less of a problem since the race engines got torn down frequently, sometimes between drag races and internal conditions verified.

The top racers like Nicholson and Glidden were their own engine builders and no longer guessed at which was the safest or most effective way to de-port intakes and heads.

Glidden is the one that was experimenting with reshaping the combustion chambers to increase combustion efficiency and you can see those now on heads like the "Blue Thunder" aftermarket heads.

On a "street car" I'm not sure that epoxy in the ports is the safest way to go? I certainly wouldn't. Even the cast "port stuffers" need to be "pinned" and even that can fail.

It goes back to the adage of, "you'ze pays your moneys and you'ze takes your chances". In the case of epoxy'd ports, I don't like the results of the risk analysis findings. Others have varying perspectives.

@panteradoug these are actually metal inserts in the heads…

and even if there would be a concern that they could lose… It would be rather easy to pin them from the bottom..

the head conversation I trust.. the intake “upgrade” …. Mmmm not so much… I think I make it a normal chromed Edelbrock performer intake… I don’t want anybody to buy that thing and something happens

there are 2V intakes out there.. but the heads are special..

@rene4406 posted:

But they have the big valves?

Yes, 4V open chambers but 2V intake ports

Those inserts are called "port stuffers" and were initially designed by Joe Lapine of Danbury Competition Engines.

I never saw them used on the intake manifolds before. Just the heads. I am very sure that they are intended to not only be epoxied in but "pinned" as well.

There was some testing done with them in the late '70s as I recall and some numbers showed around a 30hp increase on a dyno.

Their purpose is to reduce the volume of the intake ports on the iron 4v heads to about 230cc's.

Stock iron heads are around 250cc's. The  primary purpose being to increase the mixture velocity to aid in lower rpm throttle response.

That helps with intake issues but doesn't help the exhausts.

Those are not 2v size intake ports on your closed down intake manifold and iron heads. 2v ports are smaller then that.

The A3 heads I have are similar as cast to the iron 4v heads with the port stuffers but are 220cc runners and have much better raised exhaust ports.

The intake manifold that was made for the A3 heads is an Edelbrock Torker type with matching reduced volume ports.

These are pictures of the comparison of the port differences on the two intake manifolds. You can compare those to what you have.

The A331 intake has no heat cross over provisions like the Edelbrock Torker does.

You can see that in the bottom view of the manifold.

The picture of the gasket overlay on top of the intake port is for the C302B aluminum head. That shows you how much smaller that port is in comparison.

Even though reduced in size from the original iron 4v intake port, they are all larger then the 2v ports. The biggest problem with the 2v port is that the floor is too low. It goes the wrong way. You want to raise the roof of the intake higher, not lower to get power from it.

@panteradoug posted:

Those inserts are called "port stuffers" and were initially designed by Joe Lapine of Danbury Competition Engines.

I never saw them used on the intake manifolds before. Just the heads. I am very sure that they are intended to not only be epoxied in but "pinned" as well.

There was some testing done with them in the late '70s as I recall and some numbers showed around a 30hp increase on a dyno.

Funny, I was on the shop from Danbury Competition 42 year ago and they welding pieces of steel into the heads  for making a better flow on the oval track.

That time I bought a 1970 Boss 429 ( $12.500) into Kingston by a Ford dealer and ship it over to The Netherlands

Simon

I can tell you that Ford cast iron welds very easily with 304 stainless steel ELECTRODES.

I was never convinced of putting anything into the ports by any means.

There were stainless steel "tongues" to install in the ports for a while also but seem to have disappeared and frankly I haven't seen these port stuffers for sale in decades either.

I prefer the heads to be a solid castings so nothing can come loose under any condition.

@panteradoug posted:

I can tell you that Ford cast iron welds very easily with 304 stainless steel ELECTRODES.

I was never convinced of putting anything into the ports by any means.

There were stainless steel "tongues" to install in the ports for a while also but seem to have disappeared and frankly I haven't seen these port stuffers for sale in decades either.

I prefer the heads to be a solid castings so nothing can come loose under any condition.

I seriously doubt that that big slice can go anywhere… and regardless, it would be very easy to drill and tap the port from the bottom… couldn’t go anywhere, even if a bomb exploded!

I think it’s a very cool, period Correct mod.