Engine Rebuild Required!

Too many generalities. You need to specify where specifically you are located. You need to tell us how much work you intend to do yourself, i.e., are you going to remove the engine yourself or do you just want to drop off the car to someone and tell them to do everything?

You are the one who needs to decide how original the car is to remain. As far as I see it, it is either original, original restored, modified or modified restored.

The disagreement often is over what original means.

In the case of Mustangs and Shelby Mustangs, there are three categories. Survivor (needs 85% of it's original parts and paint), Concourse using only original assembly line parts, and Concourse using allowable substitutes (off of a list).

To prepare a nationally competitive car that has perhaps a resale value of $100,000 to perhaps $150,000, will probably cost you in the $250,000 to $300,000 ball park.

YOU are the one to decide how to go and the problem with the Pantera is there are no determining judging authorities like the Shelby's and Mustangs have.

The Corvettes certainly fall into this cost to be competitive category and certainly do have an authoritative judging system.

As of this point there is no authority that has National or International credentials that is going to be able to judge or rate your finished product and it has not become apparent yet if anyone is willing to pay someone the cost of putting a Pantera into a type 1 Concourse/restored category.

There HAS been movement with the Mangusta in that area though with cars reported to have been sold in the $300,000, to $400,000 range. That's most likely what a Pantera would need to bring in order to make the cost of the restoration recoverable.

Pat Michal headers are nice but kind of eliminate you from any of these categories.

So when you use the term "retore", can you be more specific? If you just want a basic rebuild on your existing engine, and you can deliver it, I can recommend a engine builder for you. Probably around $3000 on that?

•Low compression is the biggest robber of the engine's pep. Set the dynamic compression in the range of 7.6:1 to 8.0:1 (requires operation on 91 octane US/Canadian fuel). If the engine is already equipped with quench chamber heads that makes this easy to accomplish, but there are 4 schemes for accomplishing this, quench chamber heads aren’t necessarily required. This upgrade is invisible; it doesn't impact the car's value. The wise classic car buyer will value this upgrade.

•Replace a breaker point ignition with a breakerless ignition. A Ford Duraspark ignition is reliable and will be viewed more positively by those who prefer factory parts. Calibrate the distributor for 20° centrifugal advance all in by 2800 rpm, and set the initial advance at 16° to 18°. The vacuum advance should be connected directly to a ported vacuum source with no ignition controls intervening. A vacuum retard connection should be left open to atmosphere. With a small distributor cap this can also be an invisible upgrade, although I would recommend the larger cap.

•Install a 750 cfm carburetor equipped with annular booster venturis and calibrated for "street performance". If “stock appearance” is important, the aftermarket carburetor will not be seen when the OEM air cleaner sits on top. This type of carburetor shall require a dual plane intake manifold with a carburetor mounting pad for "square bore" carburetors. The Ford 1970/1971 production manifold will do the trick ... but requires opening up the 4 holes in the manifold to 1-3/4". The Blue Thunder manifold is worth about 20 additional horsepower, but the carburetor sits higher. The Blue Thunder manifold is reasonably “stock” appearing when painted Ford blue.

•You've already acquired a great set of steel tubing headers. Since the OEM exhaust is also made of steel tubing, this change is only visible to the critical eye. The GTS tail-pipe system (Hall Pantera) retains the factory look, and is 2-3/16" OD. It was factory installed on the European GTS Panteras.

•Advance any 1972 through 1974 Q-code (Cobra Jet) camshaft by 4°. The Q-code camshaft should be operated “straight-up”. If the LSA is 117° (like the factory camshaft) then the intake lobe centerline should be set at 117° ATDC. If the LSA is 115° (aftermarket replacements) then the intake lobe centerline should be set at 115° ATDC. M-code engines and Q-code engines were equipped with the same factory valve springs.

Those 5 upgrades will add pep to the engine. Horsepower should fall in the range of 370 bhp; the Blue Thunder intake manifold would add another 20 horsepower. The seat of the pants "pep" should be what you're looking for, not a specific number like 500 bhp. These minimalist changes will retain the factory drivability, preserve the car's value, and the added pep will increase the joy of driving the car.

Replacement valves and ARP connecting rod nuts resolve two of the engines most common failure modes. Insufficient lubrication of the connecting rod bearings remains an issue however. Installation of tappet bore bushings with 1/16” orifices is the most appropriate method for ameliorating the lubrication issues.

The accelerating, braking, and cornering abilities of the Pantera result in high G-Force maneuvers. All Panteras should therefore be equipped with a wet-sump racing oil pan designed to cope with high G-force situations. The pan should feature high oil capacity, baffles, hinged doors, a windage tray and a scraper (Kevko, Aviaid, Armando). The pan is only visible if a person is lying beneath the car. It is an upgrade which an informed Pantera buyer will appreciate.

With those upgrades the engine is peppier and a more durable engine, but it remains a 6000 rpm engine. With a few other upgrades the engine's limits can be safely raised for operation at 7000 rpm. Those upgrades include:

•Forged pistons with round skirts (such as Ross pistons).
•Connecting rods with doweled caps, 7/16" fasteners, and bushings for floating wrist pins. If you’re purchasing both rods and pistons it’s an opportunity to consider 351W rods. 351W rods are a bit longer than 351C rods (5.95” verses 5.78”) and therefore reduce thrust forces on the cylinder walls and prevent the wrist pin from being pulled out of the bore at BDC. They require custom ordered pistons with ~1.48" compression height. The reduced compression height means the piston shall "rock" less within the bore. All good stuff.
•A heavier fully bonded crankshaft damper.
•Dynamic balancing of the reciprocating assembly.
•Tappet bore bushings with 1/16" orifices.
•Single groove valves.
•Stiffer valve springs.
•Stiffer push rods.
•Stronger ARP rocker arm bolts.

In terms of engine mechanics (machinists) I used to recommend Kuntz and Company of Arkadelphia Arkansas, but I've been recently informed that the founder Jim Kuntz has retired. I don't know if those remaining are competent with the 351C, but it may be worth investigating. If the new operators had worked with Jim they should have learned something from him.

Tim Meyer (Tim Meyer Incorporated) of Fairmont Minnesota is my second recommendation (or perhaps my new "first recommendation"). Tim's a great machinist and honest. He wants to be the one-stop provider for 351C owners ... and he bends over backwards to facilitate that. He's not the dishonest operator some other folks are.

Read sticky #3 of this forum, and the other linked threads near the top of that thread. I've provided tons of information there. Sticky #3 is read around the world, currently has over 127,000 views.
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Pantera Doug – Thanks for your response.

I am located in NY and won’t be wrenching the car myself. The car is currently at the shop and my mechanic will take out the engine and ship to rebuild as necessary.

I understand that when it comes to Panteras originality isn’t as prized or quantifiable the way it is for other makes and models, I just wanted to do a temperature check to make sure this hasn’t changed all that much over the past two years. I’m getting the sense that the car has been modified to the point where it rebuilding the engine won’t really affect its value one way or the other…that is to say, whether we go with a basic rebuild or high performance, the car’s value will be basically the same give or take a few thousand dollars.

George P – Thanks for your advice as well. Will look into all these items.

You mentioned 500hp. Its almost difficult not to build a 500hp engine now. Certainly 450 is like falling out of bed.

I have heard nothing but good things about Dave McLain of McLain's Automotive (1057 Highway Dd, Cuba, MO 65453, Phone: (573) 885-3920). In fact, I know of Pantera owners on the West Coast who would rather ship their 351Cs to him than take a chance with an engine builder on the West side of the country. It's probably worth a phone call.

I'm extremely happy with Dave's build.
Mark

Yes, Dave is a great builder, he also built me a great shortblock where my wishes were a bit out of the ordinary: idle in Drive with AC on AND as much torque as possible AND at least 60k miles life.

I am always sad to hear that a owner doesn't want to wrench on his car, your Pantera is less complicated that a V.W., that said have your engine builder put together a engine build for performance to your standards, George is right on all points and even Doug is right this time 450 horses is like falling off the porch. As your starting from scratch I would estimate $10,000.00
happy motoring!!!

If you are going to build a new new engine by all means don't ignore the oil system mods that George has recommended. It continues to work great for my car.

Exclusive of a new engine block, $ 10,000 will get you 600+ HP.

10 grand is nothing when you are not doing anything but dropping off your ride at the garage.
600h.p.? $20,000.00, of course that's if you want it to be semi reliable / derivable and that's not 600hp that's low 500 hp, you know this engine is not a Chevy, quality parts are not cheep, then theirs what happens to ( as boss wrench pointed out) when you up the power? tranny, brakes, etc on and on. With big horses you learn to roll on the power and then in seconds you are at twice the speed limit. I live in the country, no traffic, but even then 517 hp and 507lb-ft is only for the experienced driver / racer.

A basic rebuild on your engine will cost you about $3500. Of course you need to do all of the installation, removal and engine assembly and disassembly yourself.

The iron 4v heads will flow right at 300 cfm with a basic 3 angle valve job. That's about 25 to 30 cfm better then the current crop of "HIGH PERFORMANCE" after market aluminum Windsor heads will flow, and I will point out better then the 427 Ford heads as well.

Add a modern camshaft, flat top pistons to go with either the open or closed chamber heads.

Then a Holley 700cfm carb and pick a manifold. Virtually ANY manifold.

You don't even need to rebalance the assembly.

Then go out in the yard and find a nice big stick. Take the stick and shake it at the engine.

Bam! 450hp! Simple as can be. If you can't find a stick, I'll lend you mine.

I've never heard any complaints about Dave McLain's builds. You might want try one and save yourself a few bucks.

As Doug said, 450 bhp is likely enough for the street unless you budget $10k MORE for "other" upgrades. After all, that's over 125 bhp more than the most uncivilized '71 ever delivered new, and more than most of the GR-4s had for LeMans or Spa. 450bhp will blow away 295-50x 15" tires on 10" wheels in 1st and second until you get used to the power, and will need much better brakes, bigger front tires & handling upgrades for safe driving. I'd also suggest a chassis stiffener kit to keep the body panels from cracking due to frame-twist. More will only get you to the same rev limiter cut-off a little faster unle$$ the ZF is regeared. 325 real bhp will top out at about 160 mph @6000. What are you expecting to do with the car when the engine is done?

REALITY CHECK, I hear 600+ horse power, $3500.00 for 450h.p., hears something all my bench racing friends might consider: "Hot Rod" in their 4-16 issue had the winner of the "engine masters challenge" Winner of the small block class? 415 c.i. Cleveland. Compression ratio 10.84:1, Scat crank and rods, Diamond pistons, total seal rings, cam Comp flat-tappet 251/255 duration, heads Edelbrock 2 V performer RPM, carb, 1,050-cfm Holley, Hooker 1 7/8" headers ( fits 1969 Mustang). Built by John Kaase this highly modified motor made in a average of three dyno pulls of 575hp and 553 lb-ft to win against all comers including LS motors.

I am sorry to have to stop a slue of fantasies, but, this engine had (check the picture) the intake and heads so modified the carb would fit under the engine screen on the Pantera, oh ya their are no parasitic power losses from a A.C. or alternator. The carb is also to big for the street.

quote:

Originally posted by pantera chris:
I am sorry to have to stop a slue of fantasies, but, this engine had (check the picture) the intake and heads so modified the carb would fit under the engine screen on the Pantera, oh ya their are no parasitic power losses from a A.C. or alternator. The carb is also to big for the street.

I'm sure Kaase would be delighted to build one for a paying customer. I don't think $10,000, will quite cover it though?

The old adage which I think still applies is "how fast do you want to go=how much money do you have to spend?"

"Tell it to my heart" - Taylor Dane. Pantera version. "Tell it to my ZF".

She's big with the Lesbian community. I never realized I was a Lez?


Here is a dyno sheet that one of our Europen friends shared with me. Apparently it was blowing around in the debris when he went to visit the abandoned factory?

The black line is a Bud Moore supplied engine. The others are unknown. Is there someone here that can decipher the Italian notes?

Something about a Camaro Carb? Que?

If you want to check out an engines reliability come on out to SSCC and run at a constant 150 mph or more for 90 miles.

Amen to that dyno chart, Bud Moore super race engine 520 horses @ 7000rpm and climbing? You are right on the money to horse power, the more money you have, the faster you go, see: GT-40 program.

quote:

Originally posted by pantera chris:
Amen to that dyno chart, Bud Moore super race engine 520 horses @ 7000rpm and climbing? You are right on the money to horse power, the more money you have, the faster you go, see: GT-40 program.

...and if you are rich you get someone else to fix it.

Ha,Ha,Ha,until it breaks! When you get to 450hp. The first thing is your half shafts,then that can whip around and wipe out your upper a-arm, and snap off the differential output shaft, I was told by my father I could break a anvil in a sandbox, he was right but it has to be rolling.
When you get to 500+ hp, tranny, suspension,and of course cooling are going to be a concern as is fuel delivery and about 20 more things, but after twenty years or so you will have it all sorted out, and be out, well Doug gave you the numbers. By the way Doug, that is a BAD ASS Weber set up!

Shows what you can do with a few Budweiser beer cans and some kitchen sink drain strainers?

it is funny how a simple craft,I mean such a thoughtful recycling project brought about with just scissors and scotch tape, it's a wonder! Can you possibly send the instructions?

You don't have enough hammers. Go get some more.

If you take your wheels off to keep the 'family' from driving the car when you are gone, you have to HIDE the wheels!

Unfortunately the dented cans are only good to patch the flack holes in your F15.