Ethanol E85

Ron,

E85 (85% corn alcohol, 15% gasoline) is about 30% down on BTUs compred to gasoline AND very corrosive. These are the 2 considerations you have to deal with in a conversion. Conversions by the way, are technically in violation of federal law, and subject to federal penalties.

Flex fuel vehicles, designed to run on E85, have stainless steel fuel tanks, and teflon lined fuel hoses, special fuel injectors, special fuel pumps. They also require special motor oil.

The rubber parts of your carburetor, and most likely the metal parts too, will not be compatible with E85. Your fuel pump, fuel hoses, metal fuel lines, fuel filter, gas tank are all non-compatible.

If you were able to resolve the compatibility issues, you still have to rejet every ciurcuit in the carb to flow approximately 30% more fuel. And hope that the fuel bowl and needle & seat assembly can supply the additional fuel requirement. The engine will require new ignition calibration too. There is a pre heater required to start the motor at 60 degrees F and below. Finally, you'll need the proper oil in your crankcase.

Benefilts? The octane rating of ethanol is better than pump gasoline and the emissions are far superior.

Disadvantages? Where to buy it, poorer fuel economy, reduced vehicle range.

Cars manufactured since the late 80s are considred compatible with lower blends of ethanol, like E10. But not so with cars manufactured before that, such as our Panteras.

One last observation. E85 on average costs perhaps 30% less than gasoline, but since fuel economy with E85 is 30% less, there is no price benefit or disadvantage. It's a break even situation.

your friend on the DTBB

good lesson on ethanol George.Don't you ever sleep?Nice new avatar,you dog.Now he's "interviewing" two or three at a time.

NYS has required a 10% blend in pump gas for the last 1 year plus. I haven't had compatabilaty issues with it but milage dropped around 20%,
Most people don't even know it is blenede into the gas here already.

Yes I knew it was blended in there already and seen my daily driver go from about 300 per tank to about 220 per tank. Also I think they were doing some sort of Oxygenated fuel prior to that. Or are they still ? I did notice some fuel issues lately on my work vehicles. Related ?? not sure ?

George,

Thanks for the info ... I seen a while back a alcohol Corvette in Cali on the street. But I think the racing type. Passed emissions .... yes they say Brazil is the most advanced in this ethanol fuel .. but my source tells me its all BS, says ethanol in brazil .. the cars had no power ... the cost of the fuel was a little cheaper, the tank and filters needed to be serviced often ? The only think I could think of was there a resuidue ? would something settle out .. I know its HOT there ? She says they went to natural gas. Still natural gas is high cost also.

Ron one nice thing about the ethonal blend, if you had any water in your gas system from condensation or such, one tank will take it out. That is what is in my Pantera right now. But after one tank I am switching right back to regular. No sense in getting too much of a good thing.

I'm seeing fuel injector and fuel delivery issues with the computer controlled cars.
I think the oxygen sensors, crap and fragile to begin with (and expensive) go away faster now in a lean situation.
I can't prove it and it doesn't matter what the ethanol does, NYS REQUIRES IT. Just like the roadside geshtopo Police gangs are going to put me in prison for not wearing my seat belt.
Big Brother is here.
They can't catch criminals, so the next best thing is to make criminals out of the people they can catch.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
NYS has required a 10% blend in pump gas for the last 1 year plus. I haven't had compatabilaty issues with it but milage dropped around 20%,
Most people don't even know it is blenede into the gas here already.

I have heard that the government is no longer requiring stations to list the ethanol content and there are more requirements for it every year. I am not against it. Anything to get off foreign oil. I have been buying biodeisel for the truck. I still haven't figured out the percentage of that.

I have also seen a few cars this time of year need to be re-jetted to match the sumer fuels.

Gary

Comp2, funny you should mention this subject. Indiana, was used as the example in the NY "debate" over this.
Indiana is refered to as an ethanol state.
There is no mention of the ethanol content on the pumps here that I am aware of.
It probably wouldn't matter much anyway.
Most of them have thier heads shoved so far up thier asses that they can only see out through thier nostrils anyway.
People just keep complaining to the manufacturer that they can't get the 8mpg like they were supposed to with the Hummer and that Expodition.
Frankly I don't care what thier problem is. If you can afford to buy a new H2, you can afford to feed it no matter what it costs.
I just don't want them taking my Pantera's share to feed thier pig vehicles.
Yea right, like I have a share reserved for me.

I read last night on one of the E85 sites that you can improve the milage by raising compression ratios and some other tech stuff. I wonder if e may be on to something here.

I think their adding the ethanol which is cheaper and selling us this BS story with the MId East, so BUSH and THE BOYS put bigger profits in their pockets. I 'll bet 100 bucks Bush is buying Corn Fields as we speak.

If I remember right Indy cars and dirt track racers have always been powered by alchohol. So I guess you could get more performance out of an engine that way. Has anyone converted a Cleveland to diesel yet????? You can really bump your compresion ratio if you are running diesel fuel.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
...improve the milage by raising compression ratios and some other tech stuff...

The fuel has fewer BTUs than gasoline, so you'll never achieve the fuel economy of a gasoline engine. You need more E85 to get the same amount of work (bhp) from your motor.

your friend on the DTBB

For the average person there is no advantage to alchohal. I don't know why they burn it at Indy. Maybe it's an Indiana or Mid-west thing?
That is the hub of grain alchohal in the US isn't it?
I've seen many an engine fire (on TV and from a distance) where the fuel was burning but you couldn't see it.
Funny, you are just as dead burning to death in an invisable fire as any other. To bad you don't know it.
I think the number on increasing your jet sizes is 30% bigger for alchy. So what's the advantage?
You don't get as much power, or economy, and you need to carry more fuel, so?
I guess if you have your own still, that would work if you could make it back without runnin' dry.

Here you go....




http://www.holley.com/0-80535-1.asp



.

BTW, one advantage to running alcohol in a performance application is that the charge is significantly cooler. Not uncommon to see frost on an alky carb. Because it's so much cooler, it's more (oxygen) dense. You can also run much higher compression ratios. A down side is almost invisable fire, an upside to that is that it can be extinguished with water.

Indy cars & alcohol drag cars are burning 100% methanol, a very toxic fuel made normally from wood.

Ethanol is manufactured normally from corn or sugar cane. The blended fuels you buy at the pump are mixtures with gasoline, i.e. E10 = 10% ethanol, E85 = 85% ethanol. Ethanol is a much safer fuel than methanol.

The Holley carbs are jetted for 100% METHANOL. It would not be jetted properly for pump fuel.

The BTU content of Ethanol and Methanol are substantially different.

Your friend on the DTBB

Exactly Doug. For me running on alchohol is almost free. Just fill her up with shine.
George where can I get some of that octane stuff??? It looks like it would be a real compatible fuel. Where do they sell it????

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
Indy cars & alcohol drag cars are burning 100% methanol, a very toxic fuel made normally from wood.

Ethanol is manufactured normally from corn or sugar cane. The blended fuels you buy at the pump are mixtures with gasoline, i.e. E10 = 10% ethanol, E85 = 85% ethanol. Ethanol is a much safer fuel than methanol.

The Holley carbs are jetted for 100% METHANOL. It would not be jetted properly for pump fuel.

The BTU content of Ethanol and Methanol are substantially different.

Your friend on the DTBB

Exactly, actually my post of the alky carb and alky comments were in response to the slight tangent the thread took about racing fuel rather than the E85.. Thanks all.

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
Indy cars & alcohol drag cars are burning 100% methanol, a very toxic fuel made normally from wood.

Ethanol is manufactured normally from corn or sugar cane. The blended fuels you buy at the pump are mixtures with gasoline, i.e. E10 = 10% ethanol, E85 = 85% ethanol. Ethanol is a much safer fuel than methanol.

The Holley carbs are jetted for 100% METHANOL. It would not be jetted properly for pump fuel.

The BTU content of Ethanol and Methanol are substantially different.

Your friend on the DTBB

Gee George the chart is really interesting. It's a little blury. Could you send me a clearer copy so I can enlarge it clearly.
I want to hang it on my wall so I thow darts at it.

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
Exactly Doug. For me running on alchohol is almost free. Just fill her up with shine.
George where can I get some of that octane stuff??? It looks like it would be a real compatible fuel. Where do they sell it????

You Know DT? If there was a way to insure the octane and the consistancy of the "shine" you could run on it. The change over would be minimal.
What happens with the fumes from the exhaust? Does the guy behind you get a little waisted?

quote:

What happens with the fumes from the exhaust? Does the guy behind you get a little waisted?

No, but you would have a hell of a time convinceing the cop you weren't drunk. They can smell alchohol a mile away.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
...the chart is ...a little blury. Could you send me a clearer copy so I can enlarge it clearly. ...

Here ya go Doug ...

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
...the chart is ...a little blury. Could you send me a clearer copy so I can enlarge it clearly. ...

Here ya go Doug ...

How'd ja' know my style?

I finally got a chance to write. "Corn Fuel" is an interesting topic. A simple 2 second search reveals everything from the chemical make-up to who is making it. There is a lot of info on it, which is easily found.

Having said that, my number one "PRO" to Ethanol is it is NOT imported! I think this is important enough to make it work for "daily drivers". We don't hear so much any more about buying "American cars". Now Toyota's are made in the US and a large percentage of your Ford are made in other countries yet we buy tons of fuel from other countries.

If you and your wife together drive 30,000 miles per year, at 15 miles per gallon That's 2,000gal. If you buy a car for $20,000, and 1/2 is made in other countries, you spent $10k on the car purchase. You drive that car 10 years, you spend (15k per year, say $2.50/gal on fuel, you have spent $25K on oil which %90 of the proceeds are exported. And your wife did the same thing! And we are worried about who made the car?

Hell yea, let's burn some corn!

Yes, there are other issues. Even though corn fuel refineries cost a lot less then oil refineries, oil companies are distributing the fuel and are not quick to embrace ethanol! I would suggest the government push for independent ethanol companies which can distribute the fuel separate of the oil companies! How's that for competition! With more distribution, ethanol can be shipped for less then what gas goes for right now!

As we increase population, food production and plant production for ethanol will compete with ethanol. Many advancements are being made here. Fast growth corn, 2-3 crops per year! And, they are beginning to make it out of a variety of other plants! There are many advancements to be made here.

I think the biggest drawback people have with ethanol is when the government "makes us use it". I don't like more rules but instead of rules, I think the government should push the industry and make it workable. I like the idea of cutting off oil imports! In fact, we should be charging more for our grain exports!

Gary

Gary,

you keep banging on that drum, because its a good one to bang on. I felt the way you do, back in 1974. It would be such a different world today if the US had swapped fuels 30 years ago. The OPEC nations would be much less wealthy, US farmers would be much better off. Terrorism not so well funded.

What prevented the move to an alternate fuel back then were the oil companies. They had the financial resources to build new alcohol producing refineries and were best positioned to distribute the new fuel. But they feared change. And like today, the oil companies control American politics. So here we are, 30 years later, still dependent upon oil. Foreign oil.

If every carbureted vehicle needed a replacement carburetor that was compatible with ethanol, it would certainly be a shot in the arm for Holley carburetors. Maybe Mr. Evans would finally start making the plastic Pantera fuel tanks I've bugging him about! Kirk would you like to sell 5000 fuel tanks?

yeah, I'm in agreement with you Gary.

George, I meant to complement you on your new avitar. That's quite a 4-some. LOL

This is not meant to start a political hot potato, but I understood that the only reason why ethanol is cost effective is because the corn is gov't subsidized?

Does anyone know?

What prevented the move to an alternate fuel back then were the oil companies. They had the financial resources to build new alcohol producing refineries and were best positioned to distribute the new fuel. But they feared change. And like today, the oil companies control American politics. So here we are, 30 years later, still dependent upon oil. Foreign oil.

[/QUOTE]

Ah yes, fear of change, "The Undiscovered Country".

Politics has little to do if anything with this.
Oil companies are corporations owned by stockholders all over the Earth. Exon, Shell, BP and on and on. Some are American, most are not.

They don't care who or what pays for the oil. If you don't someone else will.
It really makes no difference if we use oil or ethanol, except to a few moonshiners who can go legit and make a fortune.
The profit isn't to the USA, it is to the stockholders.
The point of being energy independent is a strategic one. We didn't want our troops trading blood for oil.
Our problem in the US is everything we have if you think about it is based upon cheap energy. If we don't have it then everything here becomes in peril.
Quantity is the only thing that will bring down the price. Production will increase, price will come down and demand will go up again. It will never stop.
Apparently the US is an enery pig. Refineries can't be built fast enough to keep up with demand.
The same would happen with ethanol.
If you want to really be afraid, fear that the average person in China will have the same purchasing power as here in the US.
What is the ratio roughly 200 million US vs how many billion Chinese?
If that happened, forget it. Game over, no contest. Gas would be $100 per gallon. The Chinese consumption is government consumption NOW, not individual.
You couldn't grow enough corn to make enough ethanol.
Problems, problems. Be happy you can still drive your car just for pleasure.

I have been following threads in other forums. It is funny that people come up with 100 reasons why it can't be done. Albeit corn oil or other alternate fuel source. All the items are issues but non are show stoppers. My personal feeling is there is too much conflict between industry and government. Some one needs to grab the program and do what it takes to get it going. Any program will have hurdels.

5 years ago no one was even looking at it. With the increase of fuel prices, everyone's looking at it again. It is the good result of higher fuel prices.

I believe the best solution is for the government to push for it to be distributed seperate from the oil companies. Only then can it create competition.

The technology to gasify coal has been around at least since WWII. In fact the Germans powered their whole economy on just such a program as they had no crude oil resources. Last I checked we had way over two hundred year supply of coal. So is there really an oil shortage? Nope. There is mearly CEOs who want to retire with 400 million dollar pensions.
So everyone just bend over and grab your ankles and put a big smile on your face. Because until people get pissed off enough to do something about it, you better learn to like getting raped.

quote:

Because until people get pissed off enough to do something about it, you better learn to like getting raped.

I hear you say that but what do we do?

Vote Dem/republican? Call ther radio shows? go down to the court house with picket signs?

I buy BioDesel for the truck but beyond that the best I can do is talk about it in forum, hopefully get enough poeple to change the right persons's mind. It will happen one way or another. When we use up all the oil we have to come up with something.

This is an interesting discussion but I'm not sure if the problem has been identified?
Is it the price at the pump?
What do you want the price to be?
$1, $2, $3? More? Less?
The problem needs to be identified.
I'm pissed that I can't get SUNOCO 260 for $.39 per gallon anymore.
So?
Should there be no tax on fuel, sales tax or otherwise?
See, no one mentioned that did they?

The wholesale price of gas is pretty much the same all over the world. What varies is the amount of tax put on it.

I haven't heard anything from the Canadian contingent on this. They have been very quite about it?

My understanding is right now ethanol can be made for at the current price of gas and maybe even a little cheaper.

#1That would establish a reasonably priced fuel and would have a better price stability. Everything from postage stamps to the making of corn changes with the price of oil. What if making corn depended on the price of corn and not oil? We as a country would have more control over the price and I think it would stay within reason...I believe.

#2, reduction of trade deficit and have more energy independence

#3, it's renewable. Available today, tomorrow, and the second Thursday of January, the year 3040

#3, it's renewable. Available today, tomorrow, and the second Thursday of January, the year 3040[/QUOTE]

3040? How do you know? What happens if there's a drought?

If there is a drought in 3040 let me know and I will feel real bad about what I said!

quote:

but what do we do?

Gary, ever study the French revolution? How about the bolsheviks?? We are entering a simular situation. Once the middle class dissapears and we are all peons and peasants, the time will be right.

That's very observant DT, I'm impressed.

The goverment has done something about it they mandated that manufacturers produce E85 cars .. by what date, how many, and the other stats ? I have not had the chance to research this .. but it was a big statement at the car show in NYC.

Gary - I agree with you 100% and there will be no drought ! Ever ! quiet the opposite .. we will be overcome with water .. due to the global warming from the burning of OIL and there will be plenty of water. I know its salt water .. but not coming from rain and wells when the water tables rise. There will always be plenty of corn sugar and water.

I agree the is plenty of natural gas ... you calif guys .. last time I drove down the west coast I looked out into the water between San Fran and LA and all I seen were lights from rigs .. what are they drilling for ?? I thought that was nat gas.

For the record Brazil does have ethanol cars but they also use a fair share of nat gas cars which the sales pitch on the E Net doesnt tell us.

Holland ? my friend came to the US and bought a big F350 van shipped it back and converted it to Propane for 1800.00 kit that can be bought. It takes 2 - 30lb tanks readily available.

Just today in the Bid Reports for new Construction Projects there is the Proposal to construct a new Ethanol plant in upstate NY. SO maybe there is hope.

I think it has not gone full blown because there fuel is not available.
I say for the daily driver the ethanol is the fuel of choice to rid us of foriegn oil and independence that is the foundation of this country.

Politics.. of coarse.

But that doesnt prevent the daily driver from converting to a fuel efficent vehicle or fuel efficient Heating System in their house.

I say go foward full steam with alternate fuel and stop funding the terrorists.

But what do we do ..

Look at China .. whats the figure ? something like 80% of there people are peasants. The other 20% are RICH. The 80% have no voice.

China is enjoying and industrial revolution. There peasants want raises, there are labor shortages, there peasants are getting smarter and soon you will see changes like Organized Labor and Shortages.