Exhaust Smoke

Check the PVC system. Also a carburetor if it is very rich will look like an oil problem because it is causing cylinder washing.
You need to look at that.

And also a compression test.

Intake gasket, ring seal both sound like candidates to me. I rule out jetting because you described it as blue smoke.

I use starting fluid to check for vacuum leaks. A compression test, or better yet, a leak down test, sound like good advice to check the rings.

I know Russ doesn't like synthetic oil, so I'm assuming you broke the motor in with mineral oil based lubricant? David Berman had an extreme oil burning problem that was resolved by simply running mineral oil based lubricant through the motor, he had been using synthetic oil.

By the way Art, you've never let us know if the powerband issue was resolved.

your friend on the DTBB

The color of smoke is an indication of the problem.
Black Smoke, is a rich condition dealing with the carb and fuel.
White Smoke is coolant entering into the compustion chamber and could be a bad head gasket or cracked head/block.

If it is blue like you say then you are on the right track, oil related. Since the valve covers are off, inspect the valve seals to see if they are damaged or missing. Simple thing to check without pulling the head. A damage seal will allow oil to leak down the valve stem and into the combustion chamber.

I agree with the compression test. There is a process in performing this test, make sure you do it right. Check all cylinders and look for variation. A dead cylinder will pinpoint the problem with the rings or valves. For the dead cylinder, pour a little oil in the spark plug hold and run the test again. If pressure improves then the rings are likely the problem as the oil will "seal the rings" and improve the compression.

The other question is how bad is bad? One could run with a smokey engine for some time and hold off on a major rebuilt until funds and time allows. Might consume a few plugs along the way from fowling but at least your get to drive it for a while before yanking the motor.

I hope it turns out to be something simple. If it is the rings, they you are facing a rebuild at that point you might as well do the whole thing top to bottom.

This is a new engine right? It ran fine on the dyno? It isn't the rings and the stem seals, they didn't go away overnight on a new engine.
This is something that those 4 cylinders have in common.
Disconnect and plug the Pvc hose from the intake manifold and run the engine. See if it clears up.
Fords tend to syphon oil out of the valve covers into the intake manifold though the PVC hose.
If it isn't the intake manifold gasket, it sure could be the PVC.
Or what did you do to it since the dyno, change the cam?

New engine!?!?! I missed that, never mind my post. I assumed an old tired engine.

Check the affect head oil return passage, you may have too much oil staying in the head. I'd also look at your oil pressure as the engine is warming up if the pressure is initially good and then drops off when cold and then several minutes later come back to normal I'd take a hard look at the return holes. From experience I had this happen to my engine baffled me for months and my plugs were oily as well.

The comments about the PVC system are right on the money. I had an oil burning problem with a newly rebuilt engine. I was tearing my hair out over it. Changed all of the valve stem seals, changed the intake manifold gaskets a couple of times. Then I disconnected the PVC system. Problem disappeared. As I recall the left side smoked more than the right side. I don't know why that is?

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Check the PVC system. Also a carburetor if it is very rich will look like an oil problem because it is causing cylinder washing.
You need to look at that.

Doug,
I am not using a PCV valve, I'm running breathers instead. When I had the car on the dyno, they didn't say anything about it running rich. (doesn't mean it is not rich). They told me to fix the carb, I did, (blown power valve), but I have not been back to the dyno. I was thinking I may have had some cylinder washing going on, which could have kept the rings from seating?
Thanks for the help,
Art

George,
How do I do a leak down test and what will it tell me? I did in fact follow Russ' advice and have been using conventional Castrol 20W/50. Not much progress yet on the power front, I did install the new PI stainless mufflers, and according to my Gtech meter, I may have gained a bit of HP. With the car stationary and in the dark, I did run the engine up to about 6000 rpm. At that point it started to make a little different noise so I chickened out of running it any higher. I did notice a very slight popping sound, maybe too rich?, but other than that it sounded fine.
Thank you,
Art

If it is blue like you say then you are on the right track, oil related. Since the valve covers are off, inspect the valve seals to see if they are damaged or missing. Simple thing to check without pulling the head. A damage seal will allow oil to leak down the valve stem and into the combustion chamber.

I pulled the left side valve cover off to check the valve seals. It was not easy to see thru those dual springs, but as near as I could tell, there was no obvious problem.
Thanks for the help,
Art

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
This is a new engine right? It ran fine on the dyno? Or what did you do to it since the dyno, change the cam?

Doug,
Yes this is a new engine. When we ran it on the dyno, the operator said he thought it had some blow by going on. The only things I have done to it since the dyno are replacing the mufflers and the carb repair which included milling the choke horn off.
Thanks,
Art

quote:

Originally posted by johrt:
Check the affect head oil return passage, you may have too much oil staying in the head. I'd also look at your oil pressure as the engine is warming up if the pressure is initially good and then drops off when cold and then several minutes later come back to normal I'd take a hard look at the return holes. From experience I had this happen to my engine baffled me for months and my plugs were oily as well.

The oil pressure stays pretty much pegged until the engine warms up. I will take a look at those return holes.
Thanks,
Art

First of all fix the carb.
Secondly, are we talking clouds of blue smoke here?
This engine may not have enough time on it yet to seat the rings completely yet.
It is still new.
Rings generally will seat within the first five minutes of operastion but the book says at least 500 miles. You need to give it time.
The popping is more likely carb related.
A blown power valve is a fuel leak and a vacuum leak at the same time.
It will create unstable idle and a rich idle fuel dumping situation.
You need to fix that first.

quote:

Originally posted by Art Stephens:
...How do I do a leak down test and what will it tell me? ...

A leak down test fills a cylinder with pressurized air via the spark plug hole, with the piston/crank set initially at TDC on the compression stroke (when the valves are closed). The air flows through a small orifice to control the flow rate, and the amount of back pressure is read on a gage, which indicates the amount of leakage in that cylinder. Excessive air leakage can be heard hissing, either in the crankcase, the exhaust or the intake, giving a mechanic an idea what the source of the leak is. The crank can be slowly rotated to find bad spots along cylinder walls, oil can be pumped into the cylinder to determine if the leak is mostly past the rings. It is a very informative diagnostic tool for a mechanic. It goes way beyond a compression check in the amount of information it can provide.

below are some links to read:

http://www.xs11.com/tips/misc/misc3.shtml

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/long29.htm

http://www.longacreracing.com/instructions/text/73010_PI_p.pdf#search='leak%20down%20tester'

your friend on the DTBB

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
First of all fix the carb.
Secondly, are we talking clouds of blue smoke here?
This engine may not have enough time on it yet to seat the rings completely yet.
It is still new.
Rings generally will seat within the first five minutes of operastion but the book says at least 500 miles. You need to give it time.
The popping is more likely carb related.
A blown power valve is a fuel leak and a vacuum leak at the same time.
It will create unstable idle and a rich idle fuel dumping situation.
You need to fix that first.

Doug,
The carb repair was done about 350 miles ago. The engine now has 6500 miles on it. I don't know that I would call it clouds of blue smoke, but it is not pretty watching it idle.
Thanks,
Art

If it's the smoke is blue, I'll wager credits to navy beans that the valve guides are on the loose side.
On fresh "race" engines "one" can run without valve seals. It is really the amount of clearance that the valves have that cause the oiling down situation.
The guides tend to rear thier "pretty heads" when you start a cold engine.
The rebuilder didn't say anything about knurling the guides did he?
Even the threaded in replacement guides seap a lot of oil because of the spiral grooves that are left.
The only good guide is a new one.
I hope that the answe is something small and stupid that everyone is overlooking.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
If it's the smoke is blue, I'll wager credits to navy beans that the valve guides are on the loose side.
On fresh "race" engines "one" can run without valve seals. It is really the amount of clearance that the valves have that cause the oiling down situation.
The guides tend to rear thier "pretty heads" when you start a cold engine.
The rebuilder didn't say anything about knurling the guides did he?
Even the threaded in replacement guides seap a lot of oil because of the spiral grooves that are left.
The only good guide is a new one.
I hope that the answe is something small and stupid that everyone is overlooking.

Doug,
I haven't spoken to Russ yet about the valve guides though the paper work indicates new bronze valve guides were installed. I think the following is a long shot for solving the problem but I do have a problem with my fuel pump. I believe it is leaking oil from where the pin that supports the arm passes thru the housing. Who knows, maybe some oil is also making its way past the diaphragm? I guess I might as well solve the oil leak problem with the fuel pump and see if it helps any with the oil burning.
Thanks,
Art

If it is a Holley pump don't bother. I've used several of them and they all leak through the pin.
Did you fix the smoke problem yet?
My Webers make all kinds of different colored smoke. It's like a rainbow.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
If it is a Holley pump don't bother. I've used several of them and they all leak through the pin.
Did you fix the smoke problem yet?
My Webers make all kinds of different colored smoke. It's like a rainbow.

Thanks for the pump info Doug. No success yet with the smoke problem yet, I took a few days break from trouble shooting to get my car ready for the Seal Beach, California car show. The show was a blast! Mine was the only Pantera in the show, though a number of Pantera owners stopped by. It really is a great show, the problem is that it normally is held the same weekend as Vegas.
Art

Hello guys,
I was trying to kill three birds with one stone by installing a new intake manifold. The way my engine has been smoking, I figured I had some how blown out another intake gasket. Not wanting to pull the intake just to replace gaskets again, I decided to buy the Blue Thunder intake. I also had an oil leak at the front of the engine, apparently where the intake and the block meet. Maybe I didn't use enough silicone last time. By purchasing the new intake, I am hoping that maybe I can find some of that horsepower I have been looking for. So, today I removed the Performer intake fully expecting to find bad gaskets. Surprisingly to me, the gaskets look pretty good, not perfect, the blue part of the Fel-Pro gasket has small cracks in a couple of places, but I'm thinking about re-using them? What I did find was oil. It looks like all the intake ports on the heads are oily. The back side of the valves look bad, caked with oil residue? It looks like the intake manifold is oily inside, which now makes me wonder if it is the fuel pump that is causing me the smoke/oil problem? If I do in fact have oil in the intake manifold, is there any way for it to get there other than thru a bad fuel pump?
Art

I forgot to ask in the last post, is there anything I should do before installing the new manifold?
Art

quote:

Originally posted by Art Stephens:
Hello guys,
I was trying to kill three birds with one stone by installing a new intake manifold. The way my engine has been smoking, I figured I had some how blown out another intake gasket. Not wanting to pull the intake just to replace gaskets again, I decided to buy the Blue Thunder intake. I also had an oil leak at the front of the engine, apparently where the intake and the block meet. Maybe I didn't use enough silicone last time. By purchasing the new intake, I am hoping that maybe I can find some of that horsepower I have been looking for. So, today I removed the Performer intake fully expecting to find bad gaskets. Surprisingly to me, the gaskets look pretty good, not perfect, the blue part of the Fel-Pro gasket has small cracks in a couple of places, but I'm thinking about re-using them? What I did find was oil. It looks like all the intake ports on the heads are oily. The back side of the valves look bad, caked with oil residue? It looks like the intake manifold is oily inside, which now makes me wonder if it is the fuel pump that is causing me the smoke/oil problem? If I do in fact have oil in the intake manifold, is there any way for it to get there other than thru a bad fuel pump?
Art

Interesting Art,

I'll take a stab. If the fuel pump had a leak, it would puddle fuel on the ground, or in your crankcase, when the car wasn't running. So I would rule out the fuel pump as the source of oil.

If you want to verify this, pull a fuel bowl off your carb & check for oil in the fuel bowl.

The only other way to distribute oil nice & evenly in your intake manifold is if your crankcase ventillation system was missing a PCV valve, or if the valve were defective, OR if the intake manifold vacuum at idle were too low to close the PCV valve. Any of these situations should make your car idle very poorly, as it will be too lean.

In regards to the intake gasket, "if" you will be using the exhaust heat crossover to heat the intake manifold, then you must use the turkey tray. Us the FelPro kit, MS 96012. Install the paper gaskets between the cylinder head & the turkey tray.

Your friend on the DTBB

To me, as I stated before, this sounds like a PCV problem. Oil is bing syphoned out of the valve covers into the intake manifold.
I think you said that you don't have a PCV system, so I am stumped.
Are you using two cycle gasolene?

Thanks Doug, I needed the laugh You are correct, I am not using a pcv. I am using two breathers.
Art

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

Are you using two cycle gasolene?

George, I might pull one of those bowls off just to satisfy my curiosity. If the bowl is oil free, I guess that would probably mean it is time for that leak down test? I don't believe my exhaust heat crossover has been operational since I have owned the car? The heat riser on the passenger side of the Performer manifold has always been capped. I plan to cap the riser on the new manifold and am now planning to use the Fel-pro 1228 gaskets with no turkey tray.
Thank you George,
Art

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
Interesting Art,

I'll take a stab. If the fuel pump had a leak, it would puddle fuel on the ground, or in your crankcase, when the car wasn't running. So I would rule out the fuel pump as the source of oil.

If you want to verify this, pull a fuel bowl off your carb & check for oil in the fuel bowl.

The only other way to distribute oil nice & evenly in your intake manifold is if your crankcase ventillation system was missing a PCV valve, or if the valve were defective, OR if the intake manifold vacuum at idle were too low to close the PCV valve. Any of these situations should make your car idle very poorly, as it will be too lean.

In regards to the intake gasket, "if" you will be using the exhaust heat crossover to heat the intake manifold, then you must use the turkey tray. Us the FelPro kit, MS 96012. Install the paper gaskets between the cylinder head & the turkey tray.

Your friend on the DTBB

Examine the intake manifold for a crack or a point at which oil can enter.
The Ford manifolds have pipe plugs into the exhaust cross over.
The Edelbrock may have them too.
You are looking in the wrong places.

Based on George's advice and that of another friend, I drained the gas out of my carb, then siphoned the same amount from the tank. I put the fuel in two separate cups to compare the color. Guess what, the gas in the carb is darker than that which came from the tank! So I'm hoping that this means my smoking problem is just a bad fuel pump. This test was done after the car was sitting for just over three weeks, I'm guessing that shouldn't make any difference in the color? So I'm thinking I will order the RobbMc Performance pump #1020, while keeping my fingers crossed. Comments are more than welcome and I will keep you guys posted.
Art

When DT and I were abducted by aliens and saw Elvis, we both saw a Pantera as well.
It must have been yours, small world huh?
Those little green guys were fooling with the engine but I couldn't understand what they were saying. They had one hell of an accent and were feeding us some stuff we thought was Bud Light.
I told them to leave that stuff alone but since they had like, seven fingers on each hand, I din't know if they were giving us the finger or not.
Little bastards. I knew you'd figure it out eventually Art!

Art, WOW this has been going on for a while, do a leak down test and call Russ,You can't enjoy your car if your always working on it. Hope you get this resolved soon.
Good Luck
Dennis

Well it took me awhile but I finally got around to doing a leakdown test on my engine. You guys were right, it is indicating a problem. Listed below are the cylinders in the order we tested them, followed by the percent of pressure they held:

#3--96%
#7--93%
#2--98%
#6--98%
#5--87% Heard air thru carb
#4--18% Heard air thru carb
#8--96%
#1--98%

So, it looks to me like I've got a couple of intake valves that are not sealing or closing. Any ideas as to why this may be happening? I have a call into Russ Fulp but I would like to hear what you guys think. I could hear a very slight amount of air passing when I stuck my ear into the tailpipe. I assume this is normal? Could this problem with the intake valves account for my excessive oil consumption of less than 300 miles on a quart? One encouraging thing is that I think I have found some of my missing horsepower. I'm looking forward to your responses.
Thanks,
Art

Sounds like two problems.
1. Bad valve seals at #4 and #5. This is allowing oil to get into the intake area of the head and thus into the combustion chamber.
2. Burnt valves at #4 and #5. This is allowing air to escape because the valve is not sealing the chamber. I guess it could be possible that so much oil has seeped past the valve seals and caked onto the back side of the valve that the built up burnt oil is keeping the valve from closing completely however with double valve springs that sounds far fetched but....

It might be time to pull the head.

You definately have found your missing ponies. Essentially your running at 7/8 th's power.

Miles

...This may sound real lame, But; I'am assuming that BOTH Valves (lifters) were on the 'Cams' Base Circle' (Closed) when the test was done on the #4 and #5 cylinders ?! They may have had One Valve 'just cracked open', Knowing they are next to each other in the Firing Order...

Thank you Miles. I am going to pull the heads and take them to the engine builder to check them out.
Art

quote:

Originally posted by Fahrenheit351:
Sounds like two problems.
1. Bad valve seals at #4 and #5. This is allowing oil to get into the intake area of the head and thus into the combustion chamber.
2. Burnt valves at #4 and #5. This is allowing air to escape because the valve is not sealing the chamber. I guess it could be possible that so much oil has seeped past the valve seals and caked onto the back side of the valve that the built up burnt oil is keeping the valve from closing completely however with double valve springs that sounds far fetched but....

It might be time to pull the head.

You definately have found your missing ponies. Essentially your running at 7/8 th's power.

Miles

Thanks Jack. I'm pretty sure we got it right, there were three of us doing the job. But, I might just test it again by myself with the engine cold. Now having done it once, it seems like it should be pretty easy to do it again. The directions called for testing with a fully warmed up engine. I would imagine this is so that the rings seal well? By the time we figured out what we were doing, there wasn't much heat left in the engine as we did the last cylinders.
Art

quote:

Originally posted by MARLIN JACK:
...This may sound real lame, But; I'am assuming that BOTH Valves (lifters) were on the 'Cams' Base Circle' (Closed) when the test was done on the #4 and #5 cylinders ?! They may have had One Valve 'just cracked open', Knowing they are next to each other in the Firing Order...

I had the same exact problem on a new engine. Two things fixed it. First was a kinked pcv hose. The second was my carb needed re jetting. Now no more smoke issues!!! Just my fix?

Keith,
My carb has been set up by the Jet Performance carb shop. That doesn't mean it's right but maybe it is close. I am not running a pcv valve. I am using push in breathers with about a half inch hole in them. As I think about it, my breathers may not be as effective as I thought. The hole in the breather is larger than that of a pcv but I don't have the benefit of the vacuume.
Thanks for the info,
Art

quote:

Originally posted by Keithstoy:
I had the same exact problem on a new engine. Two things fixed it. First was a kinked pcv hose. The second was my carb needed re jetting. Now no more smoke issues!!! Just my fix?

My engine builder removed the valves from the heads and found that about half of the guides were bad. I guess that explains the oil consumption issue. The reason the guides went bad, I don't know? Here is my best guess. After the 30 minute engine break in, I changed the oil. After the first 100 miles, I changed the oil again. The next oil change was 2800 miles later. I had added about 4 quarts during that 2800 mile period. When I drained the oil after 2800 miles, I only got 4 or 5 quarts in the drain pan. What the f___! I have a 10 quart pan! Obviously I was going thru a lot of oil! Like 8 or 10 quarts in 2800 miles. I should have been paying closer attention, damn it. It just didn't occur to me that it could be using that much oil, it was a new engine after all. I would have figured 2500 miles on a quart, not 250. At 5500 miles I discovered I had an intake gasket leak. Ah, so that is where the oil is going. I replaced the intake gaskets but the engine was still using oil, now what? After learning that the guides were trashed, I came to the conclusion that running it low on oil may have been the reason, lack of lubrication on the guides? The funny thing is, half of the guides looked good. So could low oil level have caused this problem on only some of the guides? That is the best guess I've got. Anyone out there got any other ideas? I'm having new bronze guides installed and while the heads are off, I'm having them milled .020 and having the exhaust ports pocket ported. I hope this solves my oil consumption and low HP issues. And just maybe she will go like a bat out of hell! I'll be able to find out for sure with the Christmas present I got for myself. A G-tech meter! Damn this should be fun, I can't wait!
Art

Art
The best description of what happened to you is "Shit happens.....even to new engines". You did nothing wrong, the builder did nothing wrong just even new parts fail.

I think this will solve your oil comsumption issues not to mention your hp losses.

As a side note you may not remember but we talked at the PI show last month. I was the guy walking around with the camera and the two teenagers in tow. Love the color on your car...I posted a couple on the events page,

Peace.
Miles