Exhaust Smoke

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
If it is a Holley pump don't bother. I've used several of them and they all leak through the pin.
Did you fix the smoke problem yet?
My Webers make all kinds of different colored smoke. It's like a rainbow.

Thanks for the pump info Doug. No success yet with the smoke problem yet, I took a few days break from trouble shooting to get my car ready for the Seal Beach, California car show. The show was a blast! Mine was the only Pantera in the show, though a number of Pantera owners stopped by. It really is a great show, the problem is that it normally is held the same weekend as Vegas.
Art

Hello guys,
I was trying to kill three birds with one stone by installing a new intake manifold. The way my engine has been smoking, I figured I had some how blown out another intake gasket. Not wanting to pull the intake just to replace gaskets again, I decided to buy the Blue Thunder intake. I also had an oil leak at the front of the engine, apparently where the intake and the block meet. Maybe I didn't use enough silicone last time. By purchasing the new intake, I am hoping that maybe I can find some of that horsepower I have been looking for. So, today I removed the Performer intake fully expecting to find bad gaskets. Surprisingly to me, the gaskets look pretty good, not perfect, the blue part of the Fel-Pro gasket has small cracks in a couple of places, but I'm thinking about re-using them? What I did find was oil. It looks like all the intake ports on the heads are oily. The back side of the valves look bad, caked with oil residue? It looks like the intake manifold is oily inside, which now makes me wonder if it is the fuel pump that is causing me the smoke/oil problem? If I do in fact have oil in the intake manifold, is there any way for it to get there other than thru a bad fuel pump?
Art

I forgot to ask in the last post, is there anything I should do before installing the new manifold?
Art

quote:

Originally posted by Art Stephens:
Hello guys,
I was trying to kill three birds with one stone by installing a new intake manifold. The way my engine has been smoking, I figured I had some how blown out another intake gasket. Not wanting to pull the intake just to replace gaskets again, I decided to buy the Blue Thunder intake. I also had an oil leak at the front of the engine, apparently where the intake and the block meet. Maybe I didn't use enough silicone last time. By purchasing the new intake, I am hoping that maybe I can find some of that horsepower I have been looking for. So, today I removed the Performer intake fully expecting to find bad gaskets. Surprisingly to me, the gaskets look pretty good, not perfect, the blue part of the Fel-Pro gasket has small cracks in a couple of places, but I'm thinking about re-using them? What I did find was oil. It looks like all the intake ports on the heads are oily. The back side of the valves look bad, caked with oil residue? It looks like the intake manifold is oily inside, which now makes me wonder if it is the fuel pump that is causing me the smoke/oil problem? If I do in fact have oil in the intake manifold, is there any way for it to get there other than thru a bad fuel pump?
Art

Interesting Art,

I'll take a stab. If the fuel pump had a leak, it would puddle fuel on the ground, or in your crankcase, when the car wasn't running. So I would rule out the fuel pump as the source of oil.

If you want to verify this, pull a fuel bowl off your carb & check for oil in the fuel bowl.

The only other way to distribute oil nice & evenly in your intake manifold is if your crankcase ventillation system was missing a PCV valve, or if the valve were defective, OR if the intake manifold vacuum at idle were too low to close the PCV valve. Any of these situations should make your car idle very poorly, as it will be too lean.

In regards to the intake gasket, "if" you will be using the exhaust heat crossover to heat the intake manifold, then you must use the turkey tray. Us the FelPro kit, MS 96012. Install the paper gaskets between the cylinder head & the turkey tray.

Your friend on the DTBB

To me, as I stated before, this sounds like a PCV problem. Oil is bing syphoned out of the valve covers into the intake manifold.
I think you said that you don't have a PCV system, so I am stumped.
Are you using two cycle gasolene?

Thanks Doug, I needed the laugh You are correct, I am not using a pcv. I am using two breathers.
Art

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

Are you using two cycle gasolene?

George, I might pull one of those bowls off just to satisfy my curiosity. If the bowl is oil free, I guess that would probably mean it is time for that leak down test? I don't believe my exhaust heat crossover has been operational since I have owned the car? The heat riser on the passenger side of the Performer manifold has always been capped. I plan to cap the riser on the new manifold and am now planning to use the Fel-pro 1228 gaskets with no turkey tray.
Thank you George,
Art

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
Interesting Art,

I'll take a stab. If the fuel pump had a leak, it would puddle fuel on the ground, or in your crankcase, when the car wasn't running. So I would rule out the fuel pump as the source of oil.

If you want to verify this, pull a fuel bowl off your carb & check for oil in the fuel bowl.

The only other way to distribute oil nice & evenly in your intake manifold is if your crankcase ventillation system was missing a PCV valve, or if the valve were defective, OR if the intake manifold vacuum at idle were too low to close the PCV valve. Any of these situations should make your car idle very poorly, as it will be too lean.

In regards to the intake gasket, "if" you will be using the exhaust heat crossover to heat the intake manifold, then you must use the turkey tray. Us the FelPro kit, MS 96012. Install the paper gaskets between the cylinder head & the turkey tray.

Your friend on the DTBB

Examine the intake manifold for a crack or a point at which oil can enter.
The Ford manifolds have pipe plugs into the exhaust cross over.
The Edelbrock may have them too.
You are looking in the wrong places.

Based on George's advice and that of another friend, I drained the gas out of my carb, then siphoned the same amount from the tank. I put the fuel in two separate cups to compare the color. Guess what, the gas in the carb is darker than that which came from the tank! So I'm hoping that this means my smoking problem is just a bad fuel pump. This test was done after the car was sitting for just over three weeks, I'm guessing that shouldn't make any difference in the color? So I'm thinking I will order the RobbMc Performance pump #1020, while keeping my fingers crossed. Comments are more than welcome and I will keep you guys posted.
Art

When DT and I were abducted by aliens and saw Elvis, we both saw a Pantera as well.
It must have been yours, small world huh?
Those little green guys were fooling with the engine but I couldn't understand what they were saying. They had one hell of an accent and were feeding us some stuff we thought was Bud Light.
I told them to leave that stuff alone but since they had like, seven fingers on each hand, I din't know if they were giving us the finger or not.
Little bastards. I knew you'd figure it out eventually Art!

Art, WOW this has been going on for a while, do a leak down test and call Russ,You can't enjoy your car if your always working on it. Hope you get this resolved soon.
Good Luck
Dennis

Well it took me awhile but I finally got around to doing a leakdown test on my engine. You guys were right, it is indicating a problem. Listed below are the cylinders in the order we tested them, followed by the percent of pressure they held:

#3--96%
#7--93%
#2--98%
#6--98%
#5--87% Heard air thru carb
#4--18% Heard air thru carb
#8--96%
#1--98%

So, it looks to me like I've got a couple of intake valves that are not sealing or closing. Any ideas as to why this may be happening? I have a call into Russ Fulp but I would like to hear what you guys think. I could hear a very slight amount of air passing when I stuck my ear into the tailpipe. I assume this is normal? Could this problem with the intake valves account for my excessive oil consumption of less than 300 miles on a quart? One encouraging thing is that I think I have found some of my missing horsepower. I'm looking forward to your responses.
Thanks,
Art

Sounds like two problems.
1. Bad valve seals at #4 and #5. This is allowing oil to get into the intake area of the head and thus into the combustion chamber.
2. Burnt valves at #4 and #5. This is allowing air to escape because the valve is not sealing the chamber. I guess it could be possible that so much oil has seeped past the valve seals and caked onto the back side of the valve that the built up burnt oil is keeping the valve from closing completely however with double valve springs that sounds far fetched but....

It might be time to pull the head.

You definately have found your missing ponies. Essentially your running at 7/8 th's power.

Miles

...This may sound real lame, But; I'am assuming that BOTH Valves (lifters) were on the 'Cams' Base Circle' (Closed) when the test was done on the #4 and #5 cylinders ?! They may have had One Valve 'just cracked open', Knowing they are next to each other in the Firing Order...

Thank you Miles. I am going to pull the heads and take them to the engine builder to check them out.
Art

quote:

Originally posted by Fahrenheit351:
Sounds like two problems.
1. Bad valve seals at #4 and #5. This is allowing oil to get into the intake area of the head and thus into the combustion chamber.
2. Burnt valves at #4 and #5. This is allowing air to escape because the valve is not sealing the chamber. I guess it could be possible that so much oil has seeped past the valve seals and caked onto the back side of the valve that the built up burnt oil is keeping the valve from closing completely however with double valve springs that sounds far fetched but....

It might be time to pull the head.

You definately have found your missing ponies. Essentially your running at 7/8 th's power.

Miles

Thanks Jack. I'm pretty sure we got it right, there were three of us doing the job. But, I might just test it again by myself with the engine cold. Now having done it once, it seems like it should be pretty easy to do it again. The directions called for testing with a fully warmed up engine. I would imagine this is so that the rings seal well? By the time we figured out what we were doing, there wasn't much heat left in the engine as we did the last cylinders.
Art

quote:

Originally posted by MARLIN JACK:
...This may sound real lame, But; I'am assuming that BOTH Valves (lifters) were on the 'Cams' Base Circle' (Closed) when the test was done on the #4 and #5 cylinders ?! They may have had One Valve 'just cracked open', Knowing they are next to each other in the Firing Order...

I had the same exact problem on a new engine. Two things fixed it. First was a kinked pcv hose. The second was my carb needed re jetting. Now no more smoke issues!!! Just my fix?

Keith,
My carb has been set up by the Jet Performance carb shop. That doesn't mean it's right but maybe it is close. I am not running a pcv valve. I am using push in breathers with about a half inch hole in them. As I think about it, my breathers may not be as effective as I thought. The hole in the breather is larger than that of a pcv but I don't have the benefit of the vacuume.
Thanks for the info,
Art

quote:

Originally posted by Keithstoy:
I had the same exact problem on a new engine. Two things fixed it. First was a kinked pcv hose. The second was my carb needed re jetting. Now no more smoke issues!!! Just my fix?

My engine builder removed the valves from the heads and found that about half of the guides were bad. I guess that explains the oil consumption issue. The reason the guides went bad, I don't know? Here is my best guess. After the 30 minute engine break in, I changed the oil. After the first 100 miles, I changed the oil again. The next oil change was 2800 miles later. I had added about 4 quarts during that 2800 mile period. When I drained the oil after 2800 miles, I only got 4 or 5 quarts in the drain pan. What the f___! I have a 10 quart pan! Obviously I was going thru a lot of oil! Like 8 or 10 quarts in 2800 miles. I should have been paying closer attention, damn it. It just didn't occur to me that it could be using that much oil, it was a new engine after all. I would have figured 2500 miles on a quart, not 250. At 5500 miles I discovered I had an intake gasket leak. Ah, so that is where the oil is going. I replaced the intake gaskets but the engine was still using oil, now what? After learning that the guides were trashed, I came to the conclusion that running it low on oil may have been the reason, lack of lubrication on the guides? The funny thing is, half of the guides looked good. So could low oil level have caused this problem on only some of the guides? That is the best guess I've got. Anyone out there got any other ideas? I'm having new bronze guides installed and while the heads are off, I'm having them milled .020 and having the exhaust ports pocket ported. I hope this solves my oil consumption and low HP issues. And just maybe she will go like a bat out of hell! I'll be able to find out for sure with the Christmas present I got for myself. A G-tech meter! Damn this should be fun, I can't wait!
Art

Art
The best description of what happened to you is "Shit happens.....even to new engines". You did nothing wrong, the builder did nothing wrong just even new parts fail.

I think this will solve your oil comsumption issues not to mention your hp losses.

As a side note you may not remember but we talked at the PI show last month. I was the guy walking around with the camera and the two teenagers in tow. Love the color on your car...I posted a couple on the events page,

Peace.
Miles