Fuel Injection

FYI: for those people who are interested in I.R. EFI systems, the long awaited Borla 351C I.R. EFI manifolds are now available. This setup was spotted at Autotrend EFI in Diamond Springs, CA yesterday. Naturally, it's going in a Pantera (but not mine). This particular setup uses Borla's Weber look-alike throttle bodies, with hidden injectors, but I believe any IDA flange TB would work. Notice the plenum cast into the base of the manifold for the MAP sensor and IAC (if you use one). 

P.S. No, those throttle bodies won't fit below the stock deck lid! 

Hard to tell are those hose barbs on the fuel inlets or AN fittings?

They are AN fittings.

Is this manifold just for iron 4v heads or is there a "high port" version too?  Do you have any prices of the setup? It would be nice if there was a wiring harness and cpu offered as a matching option as well?

Looks like they start at $5230.

https://www.borlainduction.com...-throttle-body-kits/

I installed the F.A.S.T edash unit when it first came out and I am 100 percent satisfied with the unit. It was first installed on top of my dash board, but I later moved it to the vertical area above the gauges. It tells me everything that is going on with the EFI system and it also has oil pressure, voltage, miles per gallon and speed among other things. The F.A.S.T XFI 2.05 system has a low oil pressure cut off, which is something that is nice to have.

@panteradoug posted:

Is this manifold just for iron 4v heads or is there a "high port" version too?  Do you have any prices of the setup? It would be nice if there was a wiring harness and cpu offered as a matching option as well?

4V 351C intake ports only. Borla relies on their dealers for harnesses and CPUs. Autotrend EFI has Pantera EFI wiring harnesses and a range of CPUs to match. They can even go so far as drive-by-wire with auto-blip on downshift! 

Hey David, I know you have connections to Autotrend. Please keep us updated on this project. I would like to hear the results as far as "tuneability" of this manifold and its vacuum signal etc...If it works well I might shelf my Hall manifold and purchase one of these instead.

Randy, it might be a while because the engine builder hasn’t even started building the engine yet but I’ll keep you updated. Dave at Autotrend EFI says he has ZERO doubt the intake system will work perfectly. He has set-up, installed and tuned many of these Borla systems on other platforms and without exception, they run very well. Also, the prototype 351C intake is installed on a Pantera and being driven around Southern California on a weekly basis, without any issues. 

Looks nice & clean. You going to run screens or filters on top?

Thanks David, I'm probably still a year away from firing mine as well...life just gets in the way you know. On a different note does Autotrend have a preference regarding ECU's? I believe you said you were using Holley Dominator. I was pretty set on using Holley H.P. and then someone with a lot of tuning experience told me the Motec M84 was superior for not much more money. If Autotrend is using Holley with success in an I.R. E.F.I. application on a Pantera that would give me some confidence.

Thanks, Randy

Those throttle bodies have been around for at least 5 years. They originally had issues with poor assembly control and had idle issues as a result.

Borla supposedly corrected the issues when the bought them out.

 It's a digital 8 stack system and SHOULD eliminate the reversion issue that carbs have.

It's been a while but someone that I know who converted from Webers to these exact throttle bodies said that they didn't have the same bottom end torque of the carbs.

It looks like a very nice system but is a little pricey. By the time you put a harness and a cpu on it you are at around $8000 just for parts.

@randy37 posted:

Thanks David, I'm probably still a year away from firing mine as well...life just gets in the way you know. On a different note does Autotrend have a preference regarding ECU's? I believe you said you were using Holley Dominator. I was pretty set on using Holley H.P. and then someone with a lot of tuning experience told me the Motec M84 was superior for not much more money. If Autotrend is using Holley with success in an I.R. E.F.I. application on a Pantera that would give me some confidence.

Thanks, Randy

Randy, I hear you about life getting in the way! I went with the Holley Dominator because it was recommended by Autotrend EFI, who was setting up and tuning my system. The Holley has some capabilities I needed and others that I simply liked. I like the fact it has full functionality within the “box”. I have dual oxygen sensors, drive by wire, etc.; all without add on modules or boxes. At one time, Motec was the gold standard. It’s still very popular with racers because of it’s data logging capabilities and versatility but that’s about all I know. To be honest, all of the modern systems are good but it all comes down to software and tuning. I know Autotrend has experience with Motec, Bosch, FAST, DFI and even CIS but for street driven cars, Holley is their go-to system. They have a direct line into the programmers at Holley too, which helps. Everyone has particular tuning targets. I was looking for rock steady, low idle and no stumble or bog when I mashed the throttle at low RPMs. Another item that’s troublesome is drop throttle from high RPM. Frequently, engines will stumble before they go into idle but mine has no stumble at all. Frankly, it just feels like a high performance production car. That’s all I ever wanted but it’s taken me a long time to get there. My first system was a 4bbl style system with Ford EDIS ignition and an Accel DFI cpu. It did nothing well, that is, until the first time I pulled into Autotrend. There really is no substitute for having a pro do the tuning. 

@panteradoug posted:

Those throttle bodies have been around for at least 5 years. They originally had issues with poor assembly control and had idle issues as a result.

Borla supposedly corrected the issues when the bought them out.

 It's a digital 8 stack system and SHOULD eliminate the reversion issue that carbs have.

It's been a while but someone that I know who converted from Webers to these exact throttle bodies said that they didn't have the same bottom end torque of the carbs.

 

It looks like a very nice system but is a little pricey. By the time you put a harness and a cpu on it you are at around $8000 just for parts.

Having less torque down low than Webers is likely a tuning issue since that’s where EFI usually excels. 

“a little pricey” ... that’s a subjective thing!

@does200 posted:

Looks nice & clean. You going to run screens or filters on top?

Jan, it’s not mine, so I don’t know which they’re using. 

@davidnunn posted:

Having less torque down low than Webers is likely a tuning issue since that’s where EFI usually excels. 

“a little pricey” ... that’s a subjective thing!

Yes but that subjectively eliminates me.

Thank you for all the replies.  I’ve never posted, but am thinking of installing a Holley sniper stealth for drivability.  My carb has been so much trouble.   2 questions I have are:

1.    Where and how is everyone installing the temperature sensor?  I do have the high flow edelbrook water pump installed but haven’t checked to see if it has an extra port.   Can you use the block coolant drain plug port?

2.     Are you drilling a hole in the Filler neck for the return line?  

thanks for any help and or info.  

Dan

Dan,

Yesterday, after two and a half years of torture with my Holley Fuel Injection and two different shops trying to diagnose the problem during that time, we tore it all out and re-installed an Edelbrock carb.  I also had trouble for many years with my carburetor, to the point where starting it was such a pain in the rear that I gave up driving my Pantera (especially because my new to me Jag XKR was quicker, easier to drive, and so reliable).  When I restored/modified my car starting about 7 years ago, the first thing I wanted done was to change to fuel injection.  After that, just turning the key started the car up immediately, and I was excited.  But, on the first day of bringing it home from the shop that did the work, I experienced what seemed like vapor lock.  Car would begin sputtering, then stall, and it would have to cool off for 20 minutes before it would run again.   During the couple of years that I had the system in, if I drove the car on early winter mornings where the temperature was 40-50*F outside, I didn't have too much of an issue, but when the temperature rose, and/or I was in traffic or climbing a hill, it would continue to leave me stranded in some very dangerous situations.  My warning about Holley is that they are not answering phones so you can't get any technical help from them right now.  About 3 weeks ago I and my mechanic spent over 8 hours on hold trying to get some information from them, and phone was never answered no matter what department extension you tried.  Yesterday, we chucked the whole thing.  If you want a near new Holley system, and can diagnose the problem, I'll virtually give it away.  My car was delivered back to me late last night, so I haven't driven it nor started it yet with the new carb, and I won't be able to for a couple of weeks due to foot surgery, but I'm anxiously awaiting a drive where I'm not scared to death of stalling in a major intersection or a freeway offramp or on the freeway, as that happened everytime the engine temp got to 180*F.  I was down at PIM a few weeks ago with a friend getting parts for his Pantera, and I spoke to Jerry there who said he has ripped out many fuel injection systems from Panteras over the years and highly recommends against their installation in the Pantera.  I was intent on keeping mine but didn't want to order a new ECU without knowing that was the cause only to have it happen again.  If we had been able to speak with Holley tech service at any time, maybe they could have give us some information that would have simplified a solution.  Unfortunately, they are completely unresponsive.  I cant wait to try her out again soon.

First off, were the shops that you took your car to ones that deal with aftermarket fuel injection systems? The shops that work on restomod and high performance cars have a good understanding of the aftermarket fuel injection systems because they install, tune and work on them all the time. I have been using a FAST XFI 2.05 fuel injection system on my Pantera for seven years and have driven the car many miles without any problems. I recently switched the system over from bank fired injection to sequential port injection a few years ago and am totally happy with the result. The car picked up almost two miles per gallon with no change in the way the car operates. My engine is a 388 cubic inch all aluminum stroker engine that is producing almost 600 horse power at the fly wheel and I doubt that I could ever get 18 to 20 miles per gallon out of that engine with a carb.

jffr,

The shop that originally installed the EFI system works almost exclusively on high end cars and exotics.  I met him years ago when he was preparing my former partner's Audi for racing, and he worked on my XKR, installing a pulley and tune.  Typically, on a day in his shop you'll see two or three Nissan GTRs, same with Audi R8s, a Ferrari or two, and some oddballs like a Spyker, Merc AMG GT, etc.

When I first had the issue, I brought it back to his shop several times, and he tried several fixes but the problem persisted.  Then he got so busy, he just never had the time to work on it and frankly I got frustrated with his inability to find the time or the problem, and I took it back to my normal mechanic who works on all of my cars.  He has had the car for the last couple of months and thought he had solved the problem, called me to pick up the car, and in his parking lot while we were talking, it started to stumble again.  Over the past three weeks since that day, our attempts to contact Holley technical support were unsuccessful, and the problem persisted.  I finally gave up, I want to be able to drive my car before I get too old to do so, I'm 67 and having surgery next week on my right leg, so I won't be driving it for a while anyway, but I hope to do so soon, and I'm not willing to feel like I'm not going to make it home on any drive I venture out on.  I wish that the fuel injection worked in my case because it made starting the car a pleasure something that hadn't happened in the previous 18 years of ownership.

I've been there too. in fact, my badly running EFI system took a cylinder and two years of my life with it! That was after spending thousands of dollars with the local EFI expert, trying to make it run properly. The "expert" wasn't. They just tried to fix it like I did; through trial and error. They didn't have a clue. All they could do was replace parts, play with settings and cross their fingers. Sure, they knew enough to install it but when it went bad, they didn't have the equipment or the technical knowledge to diagnose the problem.

I finally began calling around to manufacturers like Roush and Kinsler, looking for advice. I was referred to Autotrend EFI in Northern California. I live in Vancouver but was so fed-up with EFI, I decided to ship my Pantera there on the chance they could solve the problem. The first thing they did was to connect a laptop between all the sensors and the ECU. They also had a laptop connected to the ECU with the tuning software running on it. They started the engine and immediately noticed the dual sync distributor was not sending the cam sync signal when it should. It was sending a signal but not at the right time. If it had not sent any signal or the unit had failed completely, it would have thrown an error code but since it was sending a signal, there was no error. They replaced the circuit board in the distributor, fired it up and it ran like it never had before...perfectly. I didn't know whether to laugh or scream!!! The whole process took about 30 minutes. They spent another 30 minutes fine tuning the calibration and finally, I had what I'd always wanted. Unfortunately, I started looking at Panteras with individual runner systems and couldn't resist!!!

Later on, they told me they had a feeling my problem was the distributor the first time they spoke with me. Apparently, my particular dual sync distributor has about a 50% failure rate! That's why they had a spare circuit board on hand. Funny, when I spoke to the manufacturer's tech support, they never suggested that might be the problem!

The moral of the story is, don't buy your EFI system from Summit , Jeg's or Amazon because you want to save a hundred bucks. Buy it from a dealer who's truly knowledgeable. You'll get the same price as Summit, Jeg's or Amazon but you'll also get someone you can call when you have a problem. Someone who truly understands your system. Don't count on the manufacturer's tech support. It usually isn't very good, if you can get through at all. Besides, don't problems always happen on the weekends? Hey, I've got my EFI dealer's cel. phone number. I can get help on weekends and holidays!!!

davidnunn,

I'm thrilled you found someone who could end your misery, unfortunately, I couldn't and went with a solution that I hope works.  It also cost me thousands of dollars trying to chase this down, only to start over and chuck the whole thing.  However, if I ever decide to switch back, I'll be calling your guys, it'll be worth the trip from So Cal up north to find someone who knows what they're doing.

Thanks

Even though my right foot was very sore, I couldn't resist the opportunity to take my first ride with the newly installed Edelbrock carb.  I drove with fellow forum member Riley out to Malibu Cars and Coffee at Malibu Country Mart very early in the morning.  The way there was a little nerve wracking as I wasn't sure how my foot would respond, but the 20 mile or so trip was uneventful and enjoyable.  After parking our matching red cars on the street, the shopping center had closed the parking lot, we enjoyed seeing some great cars, meeting some very nice enthusiasts and others, and sat out in the sunshine having a good time on a warm day.  It was on just such days that I would inevitably have a problem on the way home.  Afternoon warmth, a little traffic, and my fuel injection system would first begin to sputter and then would stall at the first time I came to a stop.  Sometimes I was left in very precarious situations, and I would have to wait 15-20 minutes for the car to cool afterwhich I could restart and drive the car, sometimes only a few blocks before it would happen again.  I'm happy to say that yesterday, the return trip was as uneventful as the morning trip, and I'm happy.  I'm thrilled to have some confidence now that I won't be stranded though I do think I'll miss the ease at which the fuel injection started the car with just a simple twist of the key, but I'll gladly put up with the pumping the pedal a couple of times and letting it warm up for the ability to make a round trip without breaking down.  Be careful if you're thinking about a Holley EFI system in your Pantera.

Don't be so hard on Holley. I couldn't be happier with mine. It does everything they say it does and more. There are ZERO issues with it. I understand yours was a nightmare and Holley's tech support was non-existent but I've heard the same story about FAST, MSD, Electromotive, Accel, Haltech, etc., etc. As you know, I had my own EFI nightmare, just not with Holley.

We've already discussed the best way to avoid these problems so I won't repeat it here. I'm happy your Pantera is driveable once more!

To quickly add here, it was great to see and hear Ted's car back on the road! It's a beast.

DavidNunn,

Nobody wanted the Holley system to work more than me.  I hated the process of starting my car previous to the fuel injection installation so much that I just gave up driving it.  And so long as the temperature remained under about 50*F and the engine temp at about 160*F, the car ran great, but here in L.A. that meant you could only drive it at about 6am on a winter day.  After getting stranded in some extremely dangerous situations, and after my two mechanics from different shops could not diagnose nor eliminate the problem, I just had to give up if I was ever going to drive the car again.  I can't tell you how gratifying it was to drive out to Malibu with fellow member Riley on Sunday, come back in the afternoon and not find myself stalled in the middle of the ride on the 101 freeway.  Out of habit, I kept expecting it to happen and was nervous the whole way home, but it was flawless all the way.  So long as I don't have to pull the air cleaner, dump gas into the carb, run back and try and start it before running back to screw on the air cleaner, I'll live with the carb.  Hopefully, the Edelbrock unit prevents me from experiencing this sequence of my previous carburetor.  I'm glad your system works well, I wish mine could have.  The thousands of dollars spent doing and eliminating the installation could have been much better spent on other things.

The problem that you are describing with your Holley EFI system sounds like a set up problem. The port injection aftermarket EFI systems have set up tables that have the ability to add or take out fuel at certain temperatures as well as advance or retard timing. If these tables are not set up correctly, then the engine is not going to run correctly. The Holley EFI should have a data logging feature which would help to determine what is going on with the system at any given time that the engine is running. My FAST XFI 2.05 system has a data logging feature and I have used it before. You do have to attach a lap top computer to the system to get the data that you want, which for myself was a bit intimidating the first time. Of course, since you have already switched back to a carb, then it is pointless to go back to the EFI system. Perhaps this bit of information will help others if they should decide to switch over to fuel injection. As I had stated on another post here, the best place to get an aftermarket fuel injection system worked on is at a shop that does conversions on muscle cars and other older vehicles that had a carb on them. Just because a shop has high end modern vehicles there does not always mean that they know how to tune a stand alone aftermarket fuel injection system.

I am just going to let install a fuel injection with single throttle. I am located in Germany and like to keep with the historic number plate. Therefore I would need some picture / history in which such injection fuel system are already available & installed between 1970 to end of 1989. Herewith the German TÜV would approve this. Can you help me out. Would need 5 to 10 cars in which this was done. please use my e-mail account, easier for mto to print out etc, info@sensor-rep.de

many thanks in advance, Uli

Finally decided to pull the trigger on the Holley Sniper. The car is currently mechanically  feeding fuel from the drain plug so will continue with an external pump, for now, and use the sender pickup for the return line. I picked up the Holley hyperspark distributor, ignition box, and coil with the hope that an integrated system will limit issues. Fingers crossed. Shashi

Don't count on Holley giving you any customer support should you need it, they haven't answered phones in at least 3 months.  As previously posted, my Holley system didn't work properly ever since installed, couldn't diagnose the problem and could not reach Holley with dozens of phone calls made.  Yanked the whole system out 4 weeks ago, and can finally drive my car again without worry of the fuel system shutting down in the middle of an intersection or on the freeway.  Good riddance.

Please let me know how this work, I’m going to start on mine in a few months.  I’m going use the Holley sniper allow, and set up the same way

As a future cost saving tip for individual 8-stack EFI or Weber carbs, buy a fiberglas (or carbon fiber) rear decklid and clearance-cut that, instead of cutting clearance notches in a $4000 stock steel decklid. Same goes for vented hoods. As is often mentioned after the fact, cut hoods or decks are basically worthless while perfect steel stockers are extremely pricey. If your lid(s) are already cut, do not lose the cut pieces. At large expense, a good bodyman/welder could repair a notched hood or decklid if you (or your heirs) ever decide to sell the car.

D Quella used to sell a setup that allowed 8-stack Webers (or EFI lookalikes) to clear a stock uncut decklid, but it also removed some horsepower and detracted from the showy looks of an 8-stack fuel system.

@shashi27 posted:

Finally decided to pull the trigger on the Holley Sniper. The car is currently mechanically  feeding fuel from the drain plug so will continue with an external pump, for now, and use the sender pickup for the return line. I picked up the Holley hyperspark distributor, ignition box, and coil with the hope that an integrated system will limit issues. Fingers crossed. Shashi

My advice for what it may be worth is to not let your fuel air ratio be too lean. What I found was that my engine wanted a fuel air ratio of around 13.7 when I was below elevations around 1500 feet and 2500 rpm steady cruising. When I looked at the fuel air ratio table for that load and rpm, I found that the ratio was set around 14.2. This of course depends on your engine build and your engine might not lean out like mine did. When I switched my system over from bank fired port injection to sequential port inject, the car ran better and I picked up about one to two miles per gallon better fuel mileage and the car just ran smoother. Starting out with a somewhat rich fuel air ratio is better than letting the engine lean out. Having the car set up then tuned on a chassis dyno is a good starting place, but seat of the pants driving is also important. I am also using the bottom of my fuel tank as a fuel pick up point and have and external fuel pump. That set up makes changing the fuel pump much easier if you ever have to do that. I have seven years and quite a few miles on my fuel injection system and it has worked well for me once I corrected the leaning out condition, which wasn't that bad, but I wanted perfection! The newer aftermarket fuel injection systems have come a long way from the original ones, which I am sure caused people a lot of problems.

  Dmoney74 & Shashi27 keep us posted how your Sniper setups go.  I have considered this setup. I would like to know the fitment of the Sniper distributor in relation to the back window and engine screen.  I would like to run my setup under a stock 74 engine screen. From what I have read many have more success with the Sniper FI if the full setup of Sniper distributor and ignition box is with it.

Will do, but no promises on timing. Getting out to the garage is in fits and starts.

Otis, if you're willing to do some work, the aluminum upper engine mounts are drilled asymmetrically. If they are swapped side to side and the frame tabs for the rear ZF mounts are bent into shallow s-shapes to compensate, the entire powertrain moves backward by 3/4". This also allows big distributor caps to fit with no non-stock parts and few adjustments. Our 351-C engine has been that way since the previous century.