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I was at home and bored so I figured I would do a write up on electronic fuel injection available today as well as some comparisons to older systems. Having run a performance shop with chassis dyno for several years I have had the pleasure/displeasure of installing and tuning several brands and eras of ECU's. This is 100% based on MY experiences with the units I have worked with. There will always be differences in opinion.

Im sure everyone hears the quote "benefits of fuel injection". For those who do not know what those are here ya go. While carbs can be made to start extremely well anyone without some sort of choke assembly knows when the car is cold you have to pump the gas three times and feather the throttle until the car gets some sort of heat in it. Even with a choke you still have to give it a couple of pumps to prime the engine and set the choke high idle mechanism. EFI does this all on its own. Usually when you key on the car or turn the key to the start position the system automatically injects a tuned amount of fuel and increases the idle control system to set the high idle. On good ecus there are about 6-7 tables that can be tuned to provide flawless startup even from the coldest temps. After EFI conversions this is one thing I love to show the customer. To be able to reach in through the window, turn the key and have the car fire up and settle into a perfect idle regardless of conditions can be very impressive to some people. Fuel economy is another great benefit. Once again, a carb can be tuned to provide great economy however it does not adjust for any variables such as altitude, humidity and air temperature. It also cannot provide fuel cut on deceleration nor can you adjust the fueling at individual points of operation. You are limited to jet/rod selection to cover a wide range of operation. Most EFI systems will offer some sort of closed loop fueling system. This means the ECU will measure the mixture, compare it to the desired mixture, and automatically increase/reduce the amount of fuel to achieve its target. Emissions go hand in hand with closed loop operation as well. Multiport EFI systems also offer the additional benefit of per cylinder trimming. In most intake manifolds there are differences in airflow between cylinders. EFI systems know which cylinder is currently receiving fuel therefore can compensate. This is however based on tuner input so is typically only altered by experienced tuners. There is no limitation on induction CFM on an EFI motor. I have seen several cars come through the shop with over sized carbs. This can cause lots of low speed drive-ability issues as there is not enough airspeed through the venturi to properly draw fuel from the jets. EFI does not care. If you want to put a 3000 cfm throttle body on your car and drive it up a hill at 500 rpm wide open it will do so happily (depending on cam choice). That's an extreme example but you get the point. Forced induction, dont even get me started. There are tons of people who would argue however I will confidently stand by my opinion that fuel injection is the ONLY way to get perfect street drive-ability with a forced induction setup. Yes, you can get a REASONABLE tune with a carb and there are guys with magic hands that can tune them for you but in my experience 90% of these systems would benefit immensely from an efi setup and the other 10% would gain some form of drive-ability benefit. Once again I stress this is MY OPINION based on MY EXPERIENCE. Results may vary. There are other benefits such as ease of tuning but I wont go into them all. I will say though that I love when my hands dont smell like gas after a tune as well as when it takes three key presses to change something that would take at least 15 minutes on a carb.

I find that injection manufacturers tend to be clumped into four distinct groups. There are the usual big name ecus that many have heard about that typically associated with imports or road racing applications. In group 1 we will see names like Motec, Haltech, Vi-Pec, Link, EFI Technologies, Pectel, the list goes on. Then there is group 2 which is typically associated with the domestic and drag racing crowds. Here you will find F.A.S.T., Holley, Big Stuff, and so on. Group 3 is for the creative do-it-yourselfers. The big name here is Megasquirt however there are others. Group 4 has all of the "Self-Tuning" systems. There is a reason these are clumped into these groups.

A brief foray onto the individual company websites will show you that Group 1 has no plug and play hardware at all or plug and play hardware available for lots of import cars. In the software you will find options for drive-by-wire, rally anti-lag, closed loop gearshift control with blip shifting, advanced 4D and 5D mapping, traction control, boost control, the list goes on.

Group 2 websites will show lots of optional plug in wiring harness for just about every domestic configuration. In the software you will see a much less busy configuration. Launch control will be there as well as progressive nitrous control, boost control, traction control (to an extent),
These guys have a very specific market in mind and are very good at targeting it.

Group 3 is a mish-mash of everything. I liken it to the Linux of the fuel injection world. It will do everything the high end heavily featured ecu's will do for the most part and for a while they would do it for a fraction of the cost. There have been massive advances here over the last few years however with massive advancements has come a hefty price increase. The cost difference has narrowed significantly. That being said this is still an affordable way to go.

Group 4 is for the people who are looking for the easiest way to get the benefits of fuel injection. They typically come complete as a throttle body style injection unit and have a control module with minimal user input.

Which ecu is right for you? Answering question requires lots of data. What type of driving do you do? What type of engine do you have? What type of modifications have been done to the engine? Do you race? What type of racing do you do? Are you mechanically/electrically capable? What are your expectations of the finished product?

Systems in group 1 and group 3 can typically do it all. Every engine fuel, ignition, trigger configuration is supported. There are options for every kind of race application however support for drag racing will typically not be quite as featured as a group 2 system. Group 1 and 3 systems will also quite often have to have a custom wiring harness made for your application or be custom pinned to your existing harness. Installation of these systems is typically reserved for professionals or at the very least someone with a good understanding of wiring and efi function. The software has considerably more options and tables and can be quite overwhelming for many people. This is especially the case in the Group 3 ecu's. The software is catered more toward the technically savvy and much of the terminology in the software does not match with the industry standard.

Systems in group 2 are a good bet for the muscle car crowd or hardcore drag racing crowd. You can get terminated pre-made harnesses for most configurations that require minimal wiring. Typically you only have to attach power, ground, tach signal, and fuel pump wires. This puts installation of these systems in the skill range of a considerably larger crowd. The software is much simpler and easier to understand however tuning should still be carried out by someone with a good understanding of fuel injection. This would be my recommendation for the majority of muscle car owners who go out for the occasional burn and want something that will give them the benefits of EFI. The one exception to this group is the new Holley Dominator and HP systems. I find these to be a very good crossover ECU. They tend to fall somewhere between group 1 and 2 in their feature set.

This leaves group 4. The "Self-Tuning" ecu. They typically come with an injection unit that bolts to a holley carb flange. At first this seems like the holy grail. Its less expensive than its counterparts, easier to install, and requires no tuner. Cant get much better than that, right? Well, in the real world I have found this to not be the case. Out of all the ones we have sold to customers we have had zero satisfied customers. Every system LOST power, LOST drive-ability, and immensely frustrated the customer as well as myself. These systems MAY work well on a fairly basic engine but once you start adding hi-po stuff they start to lose their ability to tune properly. They cannot make intelligent diagnosis like a human can such as "The car shows lean but is rich misfiring here and it is causing a false lean condition". The self tuning ecu thinks "The car is lean here so I will add fuel". Im sure some have had good results however I have found over the years that customers vary widely on their idea of acceptable drive-ability. I no longer deal with these systems at all.

Wire-in versus plug and play is another thing to consider. Plug and play for modern vehicles is great provided your application is supported. These systems can come as a simple replacement ecu that just plugs in to the existing engine harness or they can come with a patch loom that goes between a wire-in ecu and the stock engine harness. This makes installation dead simple. It takes an experienced installer about 15 minutes. Plug and play ecus can also be provided with a complete engine harness. The units built for musclecars typically come this way. There is one drawback with these harnesses. These harnesses come with an excess of wiring and they are pre-loomed and terminated. This means you have to find something to do with the extra wire. This typically gets coiled up and hidden wherever possible. The looming itself is also not the most attractive. If you are building a show car this can be frustrating. It can really take away from the clean engine bay look. Wire-in ecu's really shine here. Making a custom engine harness can keep an engine bay nice and tidy and allows the installer to customize wire length and hide wires whenever possible. This however adds a considerable expense to the installation as proper wiring should take time. Rushing here is not a good idea.

Reliability has always been a bone of contention with EFI systems and for good reason. The early aftermarket systems were crude and barely had enough memory to complete their required tasks at that time. Many times OEM systems had to make sacrifices on their configuration and mapping purely because there want enough processing power available. Environmental protection was also lacking. Early group 3 systems were notorious for reliability because they were offered in a build it yourself configuration. A large portion of the people building these systems did not have the required understanding nor the skill to properly build and terminate a circuit board. Modern systems have come a long way in this regard. With technological advancements components have gotten smaller and more robust. Sensors have gotten more reliable and function quicker and more accurately. Systems purchased 6 years ago are now dwarfed in function to ones produced today and many times the new systems are less expensive. That's the way with technology. Lots of engineering has been put into aftermarket ecus today and the results are that they have reliability just as good as an equivalent OEM ecu.

I would recommend doing your research with regards to the system you choose. Just because its a big name does not necessarily mean it is the best. I like to push the envelope with the abilities of the ecu's I use. There are some that offer me lots of flexibilty in regard to how I use inputs and outputs where some are quite rigid in how they can be used. All units have a finite amount of inputs and outputs. Once you start adding in lots of features like Quad cam control, electronic throttle, boost control, a/c control, and so on your outputs and inputs can get sucked up really quick. Some ecu's offer better fueling strategies. The more inputs the ecu uses for its fuel calculation typically the more consistent the fueling will be. Good ECU's will have manifold pressure, throttle position, coolant temperature, inlet air temperature, barometric pressure, injector flow. Great ecu's will have all of that plus fuel pressure, fuel temperature, fuel composition (flex fuel), exhaust pressure, injector low pulswidth characterization. Some engines such as heavily cammed or ITB systems can benefit from ecus that give the tuner the ability to use throttle position as a load input. Most new ecus will offer this, some more effectively than others. Another point is processor speed. This has a big bearing on timing stability. Ecu's with fast processors and effective timing strategies will be have much more stable timing. I have actually seen this personally with timing lights. I have seen some ecu's display 5-10 degrees of "jitter" when they are used on engines with a more demanding trigger configuration. To a high output turbo engine or even a high compression N/A engine this can mean death.

In conclusion, do your research. Ask questions. Many tuners, ecu dealers will happily answer your questions. Be aware though that some will steer you towards either what they are comfortable with or make the best margin on. Be sure they tell you WHY the system they are recommending will be good for you. Get a second opinion. My personal favorite at the moment is the Link G4+ systems. I find they have all the features I need with the exception of sequential fuel and direct ignition support for anything over 8 cylinders. Timing is rock solid as well. They are also made in New Zealand and with the US dollar being so strong against the Canadian dollar myself and the customer end up saving a few bucks there. That being said, I am a dealer for them Smiler. For other ecu's I like Haltech Sport series as a wire in and Holley HP/Dominator as a good ecu for classic muscle cars. I have no experience with the new Elite series by Haltech however they seem to have a good feature list and configurability. The new Megasquirt ecu's are VERY capable at a good price however I have little experience with them. As for close to home, Lance Nist from Pantera EFI offers his own ECU which I have heard offers fantastic timing stability although I have no experience with it. Also Jason from Pro-EFI (a Pantera owner) is well known for his ecu's also which I have no experience with.

I do not claim to be the most knowledgeable guy out there but I am more than happy to answer any questions I can. Im sure there are fantastic systems out there that I have not mentioned. Feel free to add your experiences.
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Great write up Pantera Turbo.

My opinion: if we're talking low miles/year Panteras, the fuel economy can never justify the cost. And a well sorted out carb, especially if not bought too big, will handle choke, idle, WOT and all that.

But the worst thing about EFI IMO is that you give your power away. I can tune a carb, written a book about it, and there's never many miles distance to someone that can help. My 2009 Cadillac CTS-V with faster than OEM running blower, for that car you can buy HP Tuners sw and it's great and user friendly. But there are so many tables and possibilities and words I've never heard before, I can't do it. I have someone on the web helping out, for $s of course, and he's done a great job tuning my car remotely, but I hate not being able to do it myself.

I would never replace the carb on my classic cars, unless I was a good friend of you and you lived next door Wink
I certainly understand Mikael. Tuning the OEM stuff can be especially difficult. I have used HP Tuners for years but the downfall is that the OEM manufacturers are always changing the operating systems and have all sorts of bizarre ways of setting up their ECU's. It is very difficult to keep up unless you are tuning the OE systems day in and day out.

As for giving up power, recent back to back testing has shown otherwise. I will have to see if I can dig up the article. On the same motor, same day, same conditions, a test mule actually GAINED HP over the carb setup.
I'd like to say great write up also. And I fall into the category of thinking the new self tuning stuff was the answer for me. Seemed the fast 2 and the holley easy efi were the best systems for this category. I have to ask, with your experience, what kind of problems did you and owners have with the self learning systems. Is there any hope that the newest systems are better then the early products. I watched a engine masters video on the holley self tuning system on a dyno room engine. Dynoed first with carb and then holley system for comparison on the same engine. The system looked quite good and made a bit more power, not much but a bit.Though dont really know how it would work in cooler temperatures? wondering your thoughts about the new units
Thanks for sharing your insight about EFI. I am in the middle of building a new engine for my 73. I am interested in hearing your opinion about which ecu will be a good choice. The engine is a stroker Clevor with a displacement of 400 ci. The plan is to add EFI and coil near plug. The intake manifold is a Trick Flow unit. The goal is to build a mild street engine. Drive-by-wire capability is preferred. Which ecu do you recommend for easy tuning for someone with a decent amount of engine experience but with very little EFI experience? Thanks.
Ski,
Sorry to take so long to reply. I have been away on vacation for 3 weeks. The major issues we had with the MSD self tuning units were surging at cruise and loss of power. The FAST unit we used was one of the first available and it was pulling fuel when the nitrous was engaged, never a good thing. We upgraded the unit to the Sportsman which allows custom tuning and it gained power even without the nitrous and it has worked flawlessly ever since. The owner says he would not hesitate to recommend that unit to anyone. There is a good chance the bugs may have been worked out of the systems. There have been several firmware updates since then for the FAST units so they may be better now. I would still to this day not recommend the MSD units simply because I was not impressed with much of anything with them and MSD doesnt have a good track record for me with any of their products. I have not used the Holley self tuning systems so I cannot give any input however if they are anything like the learning feature on the HP and Dominator systems it will likely work well. Temperatures should not be an issue at all.

Racecar Mike,
Holley Dominator series would work well for you. The tricky part is finding a harness layout that works for your setup. You might be able to find a pre-built harness say for an LS engine which would have the terminations for the injectors and individual coils. You could also piece together a system using a universal main harness and individual sub harnesses to fit. This will all be based on trigger locations and throttle body and sensor locations.
Thanks for getting back to me.
I had looked into the Holley Dominator but could not tell how user friendly it is. We need a simple tune at first to run the engine on the test stand. After the engine is in the car we will do future tuning. Do you have experience with setting up drive-by-wire? Is it difficult? Thanks again for your input.
Mike
Mike,
As far as user friendliness I would rank the Holley as one of the better ones. There are a couple of little idiosyncrasies but all in all they are good. You will basically have to input engine basics such as displacement, injector size, sensor types and so on. They do have a few base maps you can start with as a template and just plug in your data. This is good because it will start you off with a populated spark and VE map. The DBW stuff is probably the easiest thing to set up. That part is done with step by step instructions in the software.
Blaine -
Thanks for the info on Modern Fuel Injection. I have a question you may be able to help me with, is there a fuel pump available capable of pulling the fuel from the top of the Pantera fuel tank similar to the arrangement of the original mechanical fuel pump? I have a very early 71 Pantera with an aluminum fuel tank. There is no drain fitting on the bottom of the tank to be used for a fuel pump supply connection. Holley has told me that the pump supplied with the Holley system must be gravity fed to operate properly and reliably with the Holley FI systems. So I am looking for an alternative pump rather than having to pull the engine and tank to put a connection in the bottom of the tank.
quote:
Originally posted by BD:
Blaine -
Thanks for the info on Modern Fuel Injection. I have a question you may be able to help me with, is there a fuel pump available capable of pulling the fuel from the top of the Pantera fuel tank similar to the arrangement of the original mechanical fuel pump? ...


Look into the remote sump from Edelbrock. It does exactly what you need. The low pressure mechanical pump supplies the remote sump from your existing tank, and the high pressure pump in the sump supplies the EFI. Should be plenty of room on the right side of the engine compartment for this.

http://www.edelbrock.com/autom.../efi/fuel-kits.shtml
BD, the problem with using the OEM fuel pick-up is, it's too small in diameter. A pump has to suck pretty hard to flow enough fuel. It might be OK, depending on your engine's fuel requirements but the life of your pump won't be as long as it would be with a properly sized fuel pick-up. In early Pantera's, the fuel pick-up and sending unit are separate. If you installed a late Pantera sending unit (with integral fuel pick-up), you could then tee the two pick-ups together. Your next problem will be coming up with a fuel return line. Pantera Performance in Colorado puts the return line in the fuel filler neck. For an electric pump, there are tons of choices. I use a Bosch "044" pump. It's cheap, quiet and super reliable. There are lots of cool billet mounting brackets available for them too.

There may be better ways to solve your fuel pump situation, such as an in-tank pump like Bosswrench has, but I'm not sure if you could do it without removing the tank.
BD,
I agree with David in that the pump have some added stress trying to pull from a 5/16 fitting. Another good option would be a universal tank retrofit kit such as this one from Aeromotive. . For the sake of saving money I might recommend installing a Walbro 255 on the 5/16 tank noutlet and see how it works before you spend the big bucks on a retrofit kit.

Larry,
I havent had a stock tank for years so I am not sure what size the drain plug is however I would imagine anything 3/8" or over should be sufficient.
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraTurbo:
BD,
I agree with David in that the pump have some added stress trying to pull from a 5/16 fitting. Another good option would be a universal tank retrofit kit such as this one from Aeromotive.

Blaine
The Aeromotive pumps, even have a 20" extension kit that I think would give the pump enough reach to get to the bottom of the tank.


I have been looking at the FiTech, due to ease of use, and price. But I called the Tech line there today......Lets just say I asked one question and the their tech's answer had me just like Really? Thank you for your time.
I will look at the Holley Systems. Any particular units you like?
Jeff
Jeff,

Your question was directed at Blaine but I'll jump in and offer my 2 cents. The top of the line Holley ECU is the Dominator. That's the one I'm using because I have an I.R. intake and can take advantage of the Dominator's features. If you're using a single throttle body based intake, the Holley HP ECU works great.

Autotrend EFI in Northern California is my Holley dealer and fuel injection Guru! They can even supply a Pantera specific EFI harness for both the HP and the Dominator.
I completely agree with David. The HP units are great if you dont need some of the advanced features of the Dominator and at a considerably reduced price. As for the factory crate motors with electronics that is also a possibility provided you dont want to start messing with things. If you require tuning they are considerably more of a pain than a standalone unit, especially the ford ones. Sometimes the factory tune is not fantastic either. If you go this route make sure to get some reviews first and also be sure to follow ALL instructions regarding intake pipework with MAF fitted engines.
One problem not often addressed is removing the fuel tank drain plug without damaging the tank. The plug is often frozen into the tank bung and our tanks are made of remarkably thin steel. When I tried to remove mine with a wrench, I could see the tank panels visibly rippling and buckling. A vendor says he's had luck using an impact gun set on low but warns that it often takes several minutes before the plug begins to shift. Others say that drilling out the old plug & cleaning the tank bung threads was the only way they got theirs apart. My plug is still in there, as the impact gun idea didn't work for me, and I'm leery of drilling the plug with a couple of gallons of gas inside! Guess a messy siphon is my only choice followed by a non-electric drill.
quote:
Originally posted by Bosswrench:
One problem not often addressed is removing the fuel tank drain plug without damaging the tank. The plug is often frozen into the tank bung and our tanks are made of remarkably thin steel. When I tried to remove mine with a wrench, I could see the tank panels visibly rippling and buckling. A vendor says he's had luck using an impact gun set on low but warns that it often takes several minutes before the plug begins to shift. Others say that drilling out the old plug & cleaning the tank bung threads was the only way they got theirs apart. My plug is still in there, as the impact gun idea didn't work for me, and I'm leery of drilling the plug with a couple of gallons of gas inside! Guess a messy siphon is my only choice followed by a non-electric drill.


I had to drill my tank plug out, but left about a gallon of gasoline in the tank. I wasn't thrilled about drilling into it, although it is safer than drilling into a tank with just fumes inside. The banjo fitting at the bottom of the tank and a shut off valve does make it nice if you want to change the fuel pump or the fuel filter.
If you completely drain the tank then put enough PB Blaster in the tank to completely cover the threads, it will be much easier to break the plug loose. Let it soak for a while before you try to turn it.

Yes, I saw the tank do the squiggle like Boss
Wrench mentioned.

I am aware of the banjos available but for me, even that banjo was uncomfortably low.

I just put in a modern 22mm plug and went the traditional route with one exception, I put in a new combination float/pick up, calibrated the float.

My tank had the early original integral fuel pick up which had rotted through about 12" up from the bottom of the tube.



I can't speak to the factory tube capacity for running at full throttle, flat out in an endurance race situation but so far with the Webers there has not been any kind of a full delivery problem for me.

Now, if I want to go with FI, the original fuel pick up supply tube can be used as the return and if need be, an internal pump attached to the removable pick up/float sensor assembly can be added and altered to any number of "production" in tank pumps.



I am using duel external pumps. A Holley electric pump and a Holley high capacity mechanical pump. The electric pump primes the fuel system after a long lay off. My system is reduced to 4psi at the carbs so all things are not equal between carbs and FI.

IF you decide to feed from the bottom of the tank you will NEED a positive shut off as close to the tank as you can get it.

Strange things can AND DO happen. There is no possible way to predict what road debris can do. By definition, unpredictable is unpredictable but the last thing that you want to happen is that you need to get under the car to shut off the flow of fuel from the bottom pickup in an emergency situation.

These manual shut off valves also have a nasty tendency of not working when you need them too. Virtually freezing open not to mention the O-rings drying up and eventually leaking. They are just another component to fail on you. Add more components, increase the mathematical probability of a component failure. Simpler is better...and safer.

In that sense the factory type of tank pick up is much safer. As a result, I feel that in this car, all fuel lines, pumps, filters, etc, should be kept ABOVE the level of chassis. Nothing should be below the bottom of the tank.

My car reflects this point of view.



As far as loosening the original tank plug,you could just take a torch and put a lot of heat on the fitting instead of PB Blaster? Big Grin
Last edited by panteradoug
Great article Blaine,im in the process of doing my new clevlor with inglese electronic fuel injection like webbers in looks the engine is stroked to a 438 callies rods and crank chevy journal 4 inch stroke 4.125 bore C.H.I. 225 3v heads meizre electric water pump ,Danny B timming belt ,comp cams mechanical roller, Fast distributor 11.1 compression on 60cc heads with diamond pistons,i have experience on the mechanical side running a NASCAR modified stock car for years in new England but no experience with electronic fuel injection im doing the mock up now with 180degree headers and having trouble with the linkage with the stock cable that they tell me will work,any and all help any photo's from your experiencewith greatly be greatly appreciated,thanks Jimmy
I run aftermarket EFI on my GT40 replica IR intake.
All i can say is its awesome. The throttle reponse is instant. I run a Microtech Programmable ecu with an Alpha N or TPS tune as the motor has little manifold vacuum for MAP sensing. ai do all my tuning on a Mates Dyno and I make good power ,493hp at the wheels so around 600hp at the flywheel.


video of GT40 flat from 1st to 5th gears
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oMB6_MJo7Uk

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quote:
Originally posted by shelby racer:
Great article Blaine,im in the process of doing my new clevlor with inglese electronic fuel injection like webbers in looks the engine is stroked to a 438 callies rods and crank chevy journal 4 inch stroke 4.125 bore C.H.I. 225 3v heads meizre electric water pump ,Danny B timming belt ,comp cams mechanical roller, Fast distributor 11.1 compression on 60cc heads with diamond pistons,i have experience on the mechanical side running a NASCAR modified stock car for years in new England but no experience with electronic fuel injection im doing the mock up now with 180degree headers and having trouble with the linkage with the stock cable that they tell me will work,any and all help any photo's from your experiencewith greatly be greatly appreciated,thanks Jimmy


In order to use the modified stock Pantera throttle cable use this bellcrank kit. It will mount right up to the cast in tower in the intake manifold.

Mr. Gasket #1523.

You just need to shorten the supplied arms.

Why go with the most complicated solution? Simplify your life. You will live longer...AND be happier.

Chroming everything or cutting it out of billet doesn't make it better. Ask Inglese.

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quote:
Originally posted by shashi27:
I am experiencing some hesitation and stall issues and I am thinking it is the carb. I am considering switching to EFI. After reading a number of threads was thinking about moving to the Holley Sniper. The mustang forums seem to think highly of the solution for the Cleveland. Anyone else have experience with the sniper?

Shashi, if you want help with your carb, let me know. If you're mentally on your way to EFI, let's not waste time with the carb.
Just to add a little more experience. I installed a FiTech unit on mine. I used their pump and filter kit and took the fuel supply from a fitting in the drain plug. The FiTech has run great for me. Fitech said that their control, varies the fuel pump speed based on demand. I don't hear the fuel pump of course my exhaust is loud. The engine starts with a click and idles nice. Never had any indication of knock or vapor lock. Occasionally on shut off when really hot a momentary run on. I'm quite happy with it. The control display is a nice rectangular piece that I mounted under the dash lip where I can watch while I am driving. Really like the second coolant temp readout on the display as opposed to the inaccurate factory gauge. I also get 3 to 4 more mpg.
Norm
quote:
Originally posted by shashi27:
I am experiencing some hesitation and stall issues and I am thinking it is the carb. I am considering switching to EFI. After reading a number of threads was thinking about moving to the Holley Sniper. The mustang forums seem to think highly of the solution for the Cleveland. Anyone else have experience with the sniper?


The new Holley Sniper system does have the ability to control the ignition system to the point where you can use it as a stand alone. This further allows you to run sequential port fuel injection with a coil on plug or coil near plug system. I am currently using the FAST XFI 2.05 system and running it in sequential port mode. It works great and hopefully FAST will follow Holley and upgrade their system to eliminate the need for their dedicated ignition box to use a coil on or coil near plug system. The bottom line is that if you want to use a Holley Sniper system and take advantage of all of the features, then you can't go wrong.

FYI: for those people who are interested in I.R. EFI systems, the long awaited Borla 351C I.R. EFI manifolds are now available. This setup was spotted at Autotrend EFI in Diamond Springs, CA yesterday. Naturally, it's going in a Pantera (but not mine). This particular setup uses Borla's Weber look-alike throttle bodies, with hidden injectors, but I believe any IDA flange TB would work. Notice the plenum cast into the base of the manifold for the MAP sensor and IAC (if you use one). 

P.S. No, those throttle bodies won't fit below the stock deck lid! 

Borla1Borla2Borla3 

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Last edited by davidnunn

I installed the F.A.S.T edash unit when it first came out and I am 100 percent satisfied with the unit. It was first installed on top of my dash board, but I later moved it to the vertical area above the gauges. It tells me everything that is going on with the EFI system and it also has oil pressure, voltage, miles per gallon and speed among other things. The F.A.S.T XFI 2.05 system has a low oil pressure cut off, which is something that is nice to have.

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@panteradoug posted:

Is this manifold just for iron 4v heads or is there a "high port" version too?  Do you have any prices of the setup? It would be nice if there was a wiring harness and cpu offered as a matching option as well?

4V 351C intake ports only. Borla relies on their dealers for harnesses and CPUs. Autotrend EFI has Pantera EFI wiring harnesses and a range of CPUs to match. They can even go so far as drive-by-wire with auto-blip on downshift! 

Randy, it might be a while because the engine builder hasn’t even started building the engine yet but I’ll keep you updated. Dave at Autotrend EFI says he has ZERO doubt the intake system will work perfectly. He has set-up, installed and tuned many of these Borla systems on other platforms and without exception, they run very well. Also, the prototype 351C intake is installed on a Pantera and being driven around Southern California on a weekly basis, without any issues. 

Thanks David, I'm probably still a year away from firing mine as well...life just gets in the way you know. On a different note does Autotrend have a preference regarding ECU's? I believe you said you were using Holley Dominator. I was pretty set on using Holley H.P. and then someone with a lot of tuning experience told me the Motec M84 was superior for not much more money. If Autotrend is using Holley with success in an I.R. E.F.I. application on a Pantera that would give me some confidence.

Thanks, Randy

Those throttle bodies have been around for at least 5 years. They originally had issues with poor assembly control and had idle issues as a result.

Borla supposedly corrected the issues when the bought them out.

 It's a digital 8 stack system and SHOULD eliminate the reversion issue that carbs have.

It's been a while but someone that I know who converted from Webers to these exact throttle bodies said that they didn't have the same bottom end torque of the carbs.

 

It looks like a very nice system but is a little pricey. By the time you put a harness and a cpu on it you are at around $8000 just for parts.

@randy37 posted:

Thanks David, I'm probably still a year away from firing mine as well...life just gets in the way you know. On a different note does Autotrend have a preference regarding ECU's? I believe you said you were using Holley Dominator. I was pretty set on using Holley H.P. and then someone with a lot of tuning experience told me the Motec M84 was superior for not much more money. If Autotrend is using Holley with success in an I.R. E.F.I. application on a Pantera that would give me some confidence.

Thanks, Randy

Randy, I hear you about life getting in the way! I went with the Holley Dominator because it was recommended by Autotrend EFI, who was setting up and tuning my system. The Holley has some capabilities I needed and others that I simply liked. I like the fact it has full functionality within the “box”. I have dual oxygen sensors, drive by wire, etc.; all without add on modules or boxes. At one time, Motec was the gold standard. It’s still very popular with racers because of it’s data logging capabilities and versatility but that’s about all I know. To be honest, all of the modern systems are good but it all comes down to software and tuning. I know Autotrend has experience with Motec, Bosch, FAST, DFI and even CIS but for street driven cars, Holley is their go-to system. They have a direct line into the programmers at Holley too, which helps. Everyone has particular tuning targets. I was looking for rock steady, low idle and no stumble or bog when I mashed the throttle at low RPMs. Another item that’s troublesome is drop throttle from high RPM. Frequently, engines will stumble before they go into idle but mine has no stumble at all. Frankly, it just feels like a high performance production car. That’s all I ever wanted but it’s taken me a long time to get there. My first system was a 4bbl style system with Ford EDIS ignition and an Accel DFI cpu. It did nothing well, that is, until the first time I pulled into Autotrend. There really is no substitute for having a pro do the tuning. 

@panteradoug posted:

Those throttle bodies have been around for at least 5 years. They originally had issues with poor assembly control and had idle issues as a result.

Borla supposedly corrected the issues when the bought them out.

 It's a digital 8 stack system and SHOULD eliminate the reversion issue that carbs have.

It's been a while but someone that I know who converted from Webers to these exact throttle bodies said that they didn't have the same bottom end torque of the carbs.

 

It looks like a very nice system but is a little pricey. By the time you put a harness and a cpu on it you are at around $8000 just for parts.

Having less torque down low than Webers is likely a tuning issue since that’s where EFI usually excels. 

“a little pricey” ... that’s a subjective thing!

Last edited by davidnunn

Thank you for all the replies.  I’ve never posted, but am thinking of installing a Holley sniper stealth for drivability.  My carb has been so much trouble.   2 questions I have are:

1.    Where and how is everyone installing the temperature sensor?  I do have the high flow edelbrook water pump installed but haven’t checked to see if it has an extra port.   Can you use the block coolant drain plug port?

2.     Are you drilling a hole in the Filler neck for the return line?  

thanks for any help and or info.  

Dan

Dan,

Yesterday, after two and a half years of torture with my Holley Fuel Injection and two different shops trying to diagnose the problem during that time, we tore it all out and re-installed an Edelbrock carb.  I also had trouble for many years with my carburetor, to the point where starting it was such a pain in the rear that I gave up driving my Pantera (especially because my new to me Jag XKR was quicker, easier to drive, and so reliable).  When I restored/modified my car starting about 7 years ago, the first thing I wanted done was to change to fuel injection.  After that, just turning the key started the car up immediately, and I was excited.  But, on the first day of bringing it home from the shop that did the work, I experienced what seemed like vapor lock.  Car would begin sputtering, then stall, and it would have to cool off for 20 minutes before it would run again.   During the couple of years that I had the system in, if I drove the car on early winter mornings where the temperature was 40-50*F outside, I didn't have too much of an issue, but when the temperature rose, and/or I was in traffic or climbing a hill, it would continue to leave me stranded in some very dangerous situations.  My warning about Holley is that they are not answering phones so you can't get any technical help from them right now.  About 3 weeks ago I and my mechanic spent over 8 hours on hold trying to get some information from them, and phone was never answered no matter what department extension you tried.  Yesterday, we chucked the whole thing.  If you want a near new Holley system, and can diagnose the problem, I'll virtually give it away.  My car was delivered back to me late last night, so I haven't driven it nor started it yet with the new carb, and I won't be able to for a couple of weeks due to foot surgery, but I'm anxiously awaiting a drive where I'm not scared to death of stalling in a major intersection or a freeway offramp or on the freeway, as that happened everytime the engine temp got to 180*F.  I was down at PIM a few weeks ago with a friend getting parts for his Pantera, and I spoke to Jerry there who said he has ripped out many fuel injection systems from Panteras over the years and highly recommends against their installation in the Pantera.  I was intent on keeping mine but didn't want to order a new ECU without knowing that was the cause only to have it happen again.  If we had been able to speak with Holley tech service at any time, maybe they could have give us some information that would have simplified a solution.  Unfortunately, they are completely unresponsive.  I cant wait to try her out again soon.

Last edited by tberg

First off, were the shops that you took your car to ones that deal with aftermarket fuel injection systems? The shops that work on restomod and high performance cars have a good understanding of the aftermarket fuel injection systems because they install, tune and work on them all the time. I have been using a FAST XFI 2.05 fuel injection system on my Pantera for seven years and have driven the car many miles without any problems. I recently switched the system over from bank fired injection to sequential port injection a few years ago and am totally happy with the result. The car picked up almost two miles per gallon with no change in the way the car operates. My engine is a 388 cubic inch all aluminum stroker engine that is producing almost 600 horse power at the fly wheel and I doubt that I could ever get 18 to 20 miles per gallon out of that engine with a carb.

jffr,

The shop that originally installed the EFI system works almost exclusively on high end cars and exotics.  I met him years ago when he was preparing my former partner's Audi for racing, and he worked on my XKR, installing a pulley and tune.  Typically, on a day in his shop you'll see two or three Nissan GTRs, same with Audi R8s, a Ferrari or two, and some oddballs like a Spyker, Merc AMG GT, etc.

When I first had the issue, I brought it back to his shop several times, and he tried several fixes but the problem persisted.  Then he got so busy, he just never had the time to work on it and frankly I got frustrated with his inability to find the time or the problem, and I took it back to my normal mechanic who works on all of my cars.  He has had the car for the last couple of months and thought he had solved the problem, called me to pick up the car, and in his parking lot while we were talking, it started to stumble again.  Over the past three weeks since that day, our attempts to contact Holley technical support were unsuccessful, and the problem persisted.  I finally gave up, I want to be able to drive my car before I get too old to do so, I'm 67 and having surgery next week on my right leg, so I won't be driving it for a while anyway, but I hope to do so soon, and I'm not willing to feel like I'm not going to make it home on any drive I venture out on.  I wish that the fuel injection worked in my case because it made starting the car a pleasure something that hadn't happened in the previous 18 years of ownership.

I've been there too. in fact, my badly running EFI system took a cylinder and two years of my life with it! That was after spending thousands of dollars with the local EFI expert, trying to make it run properly. The "expert" wasn't. They just tried to fix it like I did; through trial and error. They didn't have a clue. All they could do was replace parts, play with settings and cross their fingers. Sure, they knew enough to install it but when it went bad, they didn't have the equipment or the technical knowledge to diagnose the problem.

I finally began calling around to manufacturers like Roush and Kinsler, looking for advice. I was referred to Autotrend EFI in Northern California. I live in Vancouver but was so fed-up with EFI, I decided to ship my Pantera there on the chance they could solve the problem. The first thing they did was to connect a laptop between all the sensors and the ECU. They also had a laptop connected to the ECU with the tuning software running on it. They started the engine and immediately noticed the dual sync distributor was not sending the cam sync signal when it should. It was sending a signal but not at the right time. If it had not sent any signal or the unit had failed completely, it would have thrown an error code but since it was sending a signal, there was no error. They replaced the circuit board in the distributor, fired it up and it ran like it never had before...perfectly. I didn't know whether to laugh or scream!!! The whole process took about 30 minutes. They spent another 30 minutes fine tuning the calibration and finally, I had what I'd always wanted. Unfortunately, I started looking at Panteras with individual runner systems and couldn't resist!!!

Later on, they told me they had a feeling my problem was the distributor the first time they spoke with me. Apparently, my particular dual sync distributor has about a 50% failure rate! That's why they had a spare circuit board on hand. Funny, when I spoke to the manufacturer's tech support, they never suggested that might be the problem!

The moral of the story is, don't buy your EFI system from Summit , Jeg's or Amazon because you want to save a hundred bucks. Buy it from a dealer who's truly knowledgeable. You'll get the same price as Summit, Jeg's or Amazon but you'll also get someone you can call when you have a problem. Someone who truly understands your system. Don't count on the manufacturer's tech support. It usually isn't very good, if you can get through at all. Besides, don't problems always happen on the weekends? Hey, I've got my EFI dealer's cel. phone number. I can get help on weekends and holidays!!!

Last edited by davidnunn

davidnunn,

I'm thrilled you found someone who could end your misery, unfortunately, I couldn't and went with a solution that I hope works.  It also cost me thousands of dollars trying to chase this down, only to start over and chuck the whole thing.  However, if I ever decide to switch back, I'll be calling your guys, it'll be worth the trip from So Cal up north to find someone who knows what they're doing.

Thanks

Even though my right foot was very sore, I couldn't resist the opportunity to take my first ride with the newly installed Edelbrock carb.  I drove with fellow forum member Riley out to Malibu Cars and Coffee at Malibu Country Mart very early in the morning.  The way there was a little nerve wracking as I wasn't sure how my foot would respond, but the 20 mile or so trip was uneventful and enjoyable.  After parking our matching red cars on the street, the shopping center had closed the parking lot, we enjoyed seeing some great cars, meeting some very nice enthusiasts and others, and sat out in the sunshine having a good time on a warm day.  It was on just such days that I would inevitably have a problem on the way home.  Afternoon warmth, a little traffic, and my fuel injection system would first begin to sputter and then would stall at the first time I came to a stop.  Sometimes I was left in very precarious situations, and I would have to wait 15-20 minutes for the car to cool afterwhich I could restart and drive the car, sometimes only a few blocks before it would happen again.  I'm happy to say that yesterday, the return trip was as uneventful as the morning trip, and I'm happy.  I'm thrilled to have some confidence now that I won't be stranded though I do think I'll miss the ease at which the fuel injection started the car with just a simple twist of the key, but I'll gladly put up with the pumping the pedal a couple of times and letting it warm up for the ability to make a round trip without breaking down.  Be careful if you're thinking about a Holley EFI system in your Pantera.

Last edited by tberg

Don't be so hard on Holley. I couldn't be happier with mine. It does everything they say it does and more. There are ZERO issues with it. I understand yours was a nightmare and Holley's tech support was non-existent but I've heard the same story about FAST, MSD, Electromotive, Accel, Haltech, etc., etc. As you know, I had my own EFI nightmare, just not with Holley.

We've already discussed the best way to avoid these problems so I won't repeat it here. I'm happy your Pantera is driveable once more!

DavidNunn,

Nobody wanted the Holley system to work more than me.  I hated the process of starting my car previous to the fuel injection installation so much that I just gave up driving it.  And so long as the temperature remained under about 50*F and the engine temp at about 160*F, the car ran great, but here in L.A. that meant you could only drive it at about 6am on a winter day.  After getting stranded in some extremely dangerous situations, and after my two mechanics from different shops could not diagnose nor eliminate the problem, I just had to give up if I was ever going to drive the car again.  I can't tell you how gratifying it was to drive out to Malibu with fellow member Riley on Sunday, come back in the afternoon and not find myself stalled in the middle of the ride on the 101 freeway.  Out of habit, I kept expecting it to happen and was nervous the whole way home, but it was flawless all the way.  So long as I don't have to pull the air cleaner, dump gas into the carb, run back and try and start it before running back to screw on the air cleaner, I'll live with the carb.  Hopefully, the Edelbrock unit prevents me from experiencing this sequence of my previous carburetor.  I'm glad your system works well, I wish mine could have.  The thousands of dollars spent doing and eliminating the installation could have been much better spent on other things.

The problem that you are describing with your Holley EFI system sounds like a set up problem. The port injection aftermarket EFI systems have set up tables that have the ability to add or take out fuel at certain temperatures as well as advance or retard timing. If these tables are not set up correctly, then the engine is not going to run correctly. The Holley EFI should have a data logging feature which would help to determine what is going on with the system at any given time that the engine is running. My FAST XFI 2.05 system has a data logging feature and I have used it before. You do have to attach a lap top computer to the system to get the data that you want, which for myself was a bit intimidating the first time. Of course, since you have already switched back to a carb, then it is pointless to go back to the EFI system. Perhaps this bit of information will help others if they should decide to switch over to fuel injection. As I had stated on another post here, the best place to get an aftermarket fuel injection system worked on is at a shop that does conversions on muscle cars and other older vehicles that had a carb on them. Just because a shop has high end modern vehicles there does not always mean that they know how to tune a stand alone aftermarket fuel injection system.

I am just going to let install a fuel injection with single throttle. I am located in Germany and like to keep with the historic number plate. Therefore I would need some picture / history in which such injection fuel system are already available & installed between 1970 to end of 1989. Herewith the German TÜV would approve this. Can you help me out. Would need 5 to 10 cars in which this was done. please use my e-mail account, easier for mto to print out etc, info@sensor-rep.de

many thanks in advance, Uli

Finally decided to pull the trigger on the Holley Sniper. The car is currently mechanically  feeding fuel from the drain plug so will continue with an external pump, for now, and use the sender pickup for the return line. I picked up the Holley hyperspark distributor, ignition box, and coil with the hope that an integrated system will limit issues. Fingers crossed. Shashi

Don't count on Holley giving you any customer support should you need it, they haven't answered phones in at least 3 months.  As previously posted, my Holley system didn't work properly ever since installed, couldn't diagnose the problem and could not reach Holley with dozens of phone calls made.  Yanked the whole system out 4 weeks ago, and can finally drive my car again without worry of the fuel system shutting down in the middle of an intersection or on the freeway.  Good riddance.

As a future cost saving tip for individual 8-stack EFI or Weber carbs, buy a fiberglas (or carbon fiber) rear decklid and clearance-cut that, instead of cutting clearance notches in a $4000 stock steel decklid. Same goes for vented hoods. As is often mentioned after the fact, cut hoods or decks are basically worthless while perfect steel stockers are extremely pricey. If your lid(s) are already cut, do not lose the cut pieces. At large expense, a good bodyman/welder could repair a notched hood or decklid if you (or your heirs) ever decide to sell the car.

D Quella used to sell a setup that allowed 8-stack Webers (or EFI lookalikes) to clear a stock uncut decklid, but it also removed some horsepower and detracted from the showy looks of an 8-stack fuel system.

@shashi27 posted:

Finally decided to pull the trigger on the Holley Sniper. The car is currently mechanically  feeding fuel from the drain plug so will continue with an external pump, for now, and use the sender pickup for the return line. I picked up the Holley hyperspark distributor, ignition box, and coil with the hope that an integrated system will limit issues. Fingers crossed. Shashi

My advice for what it may be worth is to not let your fuel air ratio be too lean. What I found was that my engine wanted a fuel air ratio of around 13.7 when I was below elevations around 1500 feet and 2500 rpm steady cruising. When I looked at the fuel air ratio table for that load and rpm, I found that the ratio was set around 14.2. This of course depends on your engine build and your engine might not lean out like mine did. When I switched my system over from bank fired port injection to sequential port inject, the car ran better and I picked up about one to two miles per gallon better fuel mileage and the car just ran smoother. Starting out with a somewhat rich fuel air ratio is better than letting the engine lean out. Having the car set up then tuned on a chassis dyno is a good starting place, but seat of the pants driving is also important. I am also using the bottom of my fuel tank as a fuel pick up point and have and external fuel pump. That set up makes changing the fuel pump much easier if you ever have to do that. I have seven years and quite a few miles on my fuel injection system and it has worked well for me once I corrected the leaning out condition, which wasn't that bad, but I wanted perfection! The newer aftermarket fuel injection systems have come a long way from the original ones, which I am sure caused people a lot of problems.

  Dmoney74 & Shashi27 keep us posted how your Sniper setups go.  I have considered this setup. I would like to know the fitment of the Sniper distributor in relation to the back window and engine screen.  I would like to run my setup under a stock 74 engine screen. From what I have read many have more success with the Sniper FI if the full setup of Sniper distributor and ignition box is with it.

Otis, if you're willing to do some work, the aluminum upper engine mounts are drilled asymmetrically. If they are swapped side to side and the frame tabs for the rear ZF mounts are bent into shallow s-shapes to compensate, the entire powertrain moves backward by 3/4". This also allows big distributor caps to fit with no non-stock parts and few adjustments. Our 351-C engine has been that way since the previous century.

@otis posted:

  Dmoney74 & Shashi27 keep us posted how your Sniper setups go.  I have considered this setup. I would like to know the fitment of the Sniper distributor in relation to the back window and engine screen.  I would like to run my setup under a stock 74 engine screen. From what I have read many have more success with the Sniper FI if the full setup of Sniper distributor and ignition box is with it.

If you want to take full advantage of the Holley Sniper system, you can set it up to run a coil on plug ignition. You would have to install a cam position sensor, which will replace the distributor and eliminate any possible clearance issues that you would have with your engine cover screen. Of course, using a cam position sensor would require the uses of a crank position sensor, but it does make the set up almost like a modern car. I had no clearance issues with my engine cover screen when I used the FAST distributor on my EFI system. When I switched over to the FAST Dual Sync distributor, I had to trim on small piece of bracing on the engine cover screen to allow a couple of the spark plug wires to clear it, but the screen still fits. The installation of the FAST Dual Sync distributor allowed me to switch my system from a bank fired port injected EFI system to a sequential port EFI system. The sequential port system has been an improvement over the bank fired system. The engine runs smoother and my fuel mileage improved by about two miles per gallon.

Well. First lesson, if you are going to add a hyperspark distributor, do yourself a favor a figure out what metal you need to run on the distributor gear before you order the distributor. The gear in my car was bronze. Will save you time to ship the distributor back to Holley to exchange the gear, and $$ for the shipping. And the shipping is ridiculous. I can’t believe how expensive shipping is, even with USPS.

2nd lesson: if you're also thinking about a new steel roller cam, some U.S. cam grinders will replace their steel #1 cam journal & gear with a stock cast iron gear & #1 journal, keyed & pressed onto the steel cam. Then you can use a stock iron dizzy gear & no problems.  But you have to ask- the Cleveland is the only engine they do this for and the only one that needs it. Bullet Cams & I think Comp Cams.

625036A3-0891-4BF2-80B5-0A79041EFAE5D405FF12-3B23-4361-BD99-A41E9F3EDACCMaking progress, slowly!

-Added a Pantera Electriconics fuse box

-Removed the mechanical fuel pump and capped the hole

-Sniper unit, water temp sensor and O2 sensor are in the car, though not wired yet
- Hyperspark ignition box and coil are mounted on the bracket which goes behind the passenger seat

-Distributor is still with Holley having the gear changed

-Added new spark plugs and cut new ignition wires. I never did that before and his was strangely satisfying

-Fuel pump is back ordered but the tank is drained and cleaned in preparation. I read a few recommendations to add a rollover valve so waiting for that as well

So far so good.

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3E1A1FDC-733E-48DB-97C9-06002E9CCDFB6A7071F8-CE98-44C2-9883-C1E339DCE930@otis posted:

  Dmoney74 & Shashi27 keep us posted how your Sniper setups go.  I have considered this setup. I would like to know the fitment of the Sniper distributor in relation to the back window and engine screen.  I would like to run my setup under a stock 74 engine screen. From what I have read many have more success with the Sniper FI if the full setup of Sniper distributor and ignition box is with it.

I installed the HyperSpark distributor. Let me know if these pics help with the question about the engine screen. Looks like a little interference.

Shashi

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I have read the above posts with interest (and some confusion!). I have had plenty of issues with my Holley carb and I am seriously considering going to an 8-stack EFI. I'm running a 427 iron Dart block. When it was last dynoed about two years ago it was just over 650hp, but it's certainly not that now and is due for rings/bearings, a top-end refresh and a tune -  so thought I would do the EFI at the same time.

Can anyone suggest  a sensible 8 stack EFI option? I'm in New Zealand so Australian or NZ product would make sense but there are so many options out there. I just want the car to be mild race tune, and still streetable.

A great place to buy components is www.efihardware.com in Australia. If you want to buy a turn-key system, I can recommend www.AutotrendEFI.com but they are in Northern California. That being said, they ship to Australia on a regular basis so New Zealand shouldn’t be a problem. They certainly know Panteras.

What heads are you using? If you are using anything other than OEM 351C 2V or 4V heads, or aftermarket heads with the OEM 2V or 4V intake port size and location, finding an 8 stack manifold can be problematic.

Last edited by davidnunn

Hi all,

Also considering to shift to EFI (most likely Holly Sniper EFI) for my Pantera from 1974, since I anyway need to buy a new carb, the old one has been too modified irreversible from the previous owner for racing purposes.  Hence I'm very eager to hear all findings/feedback and experiences on this. If a "how to guide" for installation existed, even better. ;-)

Btw - my engine is 351 Cleveland, with some modifications...I don't even know all of them, since the previous owner didn't know them either.



BR

Bryske

There are plenty of U Tube Videos out there on fuel injection installations. It seems like the hot rod and restomod car people are moving in that direction a lot these days. If you want to keep it simple and less expensive, then consider a simple throttle body fuel injection system.  In my opinion, the most difficult part of those installations are installing the O2 sensor bung into the exhaust system and deciding on where to put the fuel pump. Holley and FAST to name just a couple have enough tuning data in their ECU to get you up and running. To get the most out of one of these system, some time on a chassis dyno with an operator that knows fuel injection will help to get the most out of the system. These aftermarket fuel injection systems have come a long way in the last ten years or so and are not the unreliable novelty that they were when they first came out.

Bryske,

Let me caution you about the Holley system.  About 5 years ago when I was having my '72 refreshed, I couldn't wait to have fuel injection installed.  The ritual of starting my car was such a pain in the rear, that I simply stopped driving it for years.  I was deliriously happy the first time I just turned the key and she started up without a protest.  That unbridled glee turned to terror when the car would get up to about 180*F, the f.i. would simply shut down leaving me stranded in some extremely dangerous situations.  I would have to sit there for 15-20 minutes allowing it to cool off before it would run again and I could pull out of danger.  This meant I would only drive the car in very cold temperatures and in Los Angeles, that isn't a normal occurance.    I had two very trusted mechanics that I have used for decades, try and diagnose the problem to no avail.  And Holley has not answered their phones since the beginning of the pandemic so getting tech support from them was impossible.  Four months ago,  I gave up and yanked the Holley fuel injection and replaced it with a Edelbrock carb and yes there is still a ritual starting the car, but I can do it without getting out of the car, pulling the air cleaner and dumping gas in the carb (which is what I did for the better part of 15 years.  And yes, it doesn't run quite as smoothly but I have been driving it now for several months every weekend, and have not had an incident since.  And just know that you're not going to get any help from Holley right now.  We tried dozens of times over a three month period, never once including an 8 hour stint of being on hold.  I would look into other systems that actually provide customer support.

@tberg posted:

Bryske,

Let me caution you about the Holley system.  About 5 years ago when I was having my '72 refreshed, I couldn't wait to have fuel injection installed.  The ritual of starting my car was such a pain in the rear, that I simply stopped driving it for years.  I was deliriously happy the first time I just turned the key and she started up without a protest.  That unbridled glee turned to terror when the car would get up to about 180*F, the f.i. would simply shut down leaving me stranded in some extremely dangerous situations.  I would have to sit there for 15-20 minutes allowing it to cool off before it would run again and I could pull out of danger.  This meant I would only drive the car in very cold temperatures and in Los Angeles, that isn't a normal occurance.    I had two very trusted mechanics that I have used for decades, try and diagnose the problem to no avail.  And Holley has not answered their phones since the beginning of the pandemic so getting tech support from them was impossible.  Four months ago,  I gave up and yanked the Holley fuel injection and replaced it with a Edelbrock carb and yes there is still a ritual starting the car, but I can do it without getting out of the car, pulling the air cleaner and dumping gas in the carb (which is what I did for the better part of 15 years.  And yes, it doesn't run quite as smoothly but I have been driving it now for several months every weekend, and have not had an incident since.  And just know that you're not going to get any help from Holley right now.  We tried dozens of times over a three month period, never once including an 8 hour stint of being on hold.  I would look into other systems that actually provide customer support.

It sounds like the problem that you had with your Holley EFI system could be a fuel enrichment table adjustment. My FAST XFI 2.05 system can enrich or lean the fuel air ratio at a given water operating temperature. I am quite sure that Holley would have the same feature. If the table is going too far one way or the other, then it could very well shut the engine down. Are you getting into the EFI program and looking for any fault codes? These systems have that ability, but in most cases you have to attach a laptop to them.

I agree that customer support with most of these EFI companies is not always good and that adds to the frustration. When you say that you have used good auto mechanics, are they experienced with aftermarket EFI systems and tuning them? I have stressed this before, but the shops that do these EFI conversions have people that know the aftermarket programs better than anyone.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: buy your EFI system from someone who specializes in aftermarket EFI. More specifically, someone who specializes in the installation and tuning of these systems; not just sales. Don't rely on the manufacturer's tech support. Once your problem leaves their troubleshooting flow chart, they are clueless. Most mechanics are clueless too. All they can do is guess and diagnose problems by trial and error.

I have a Holley EFI system and I'm always amazed by how well it runs. No hickups, no glitches, no problems. I've never even tried to call Holley EFI tech support. My dealer gives me all the tech support I need. 

@davidnunn posted:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: buy your EFI system from someone who specializes in aftermarket EFI. More specifically, someone who specializes in the installation and tuning of these systems; not just sales. Don't rely on the manufacturer's tech support. Once your problem leaves their troubleshooting flow chart, they are clueless. Most mechanics are clueless too. All they can do is guess and diagnose problems by trial and error.

I have a Holley EFI system and I'm always amazed by how well it runs. No hickups, no glitches, no problems. I've never even tried to call Holley EFI tech support. My dealer gives me all the tech support I need.

I totally agree with you! The hot rod tuners and shops deal with these systems a lot and understand the software. They are also use to tuning modified engines, which in most cases someone that is going to fuel inject a Pantera engine has  upgraded the camshaft and other components.  There are plenty of 1960's muscle cars running around on the street these days that make tons of horse power and are fuel injected. There doesn't seem to be that much talk about tuning and functioning problems with those cars, so I would say that a Pantera would not be any different.

Good news. After 3.5 years she came alive today. The Sniper started the car with just a twist of the key. I did have a significant fuel leak at the fuel tank module which I am hoping is the NPT outflow fitting and not the foam seal to the module itself. I didn’t realize the NPT fittings require sealant so will put that on tomorrow. I can’t drive her to really test her as I still have the rear brakes and suspension to rework.



For those looking to install the Sniper themselves I would say if I can do it, you can do it. I installed the Hyperspark setup (box, coil, and distributor) with the Sniper and the retro in-tank module, so mine was a little more involved, but not complicated. I have a lift which made it a lot easier, and I had to pop out the rear windows for access, but between the Holley videos and YouTube install videos it is pretty straightforward.

Not  great video, but great for me!

https://youtube.com/shorts/m4nkDw3-NT4?feature=share

My shop is installing a Holley sniper stealth, and if all goes well will have it back this week or next.   I will upload some pictures and a video if I can.   I didn’t get the hyper spark system with it, but may have it installed later.   I purchased my system from EFI system pro and have they have a dedicated line to call if there is any questions or problems.  I heard to many stories about how hard it was to contact Holley directly.   They were very helpful, and knowledgeable about a Pantera.  The guy knew all the parts it would need to get the system installed properly.  

I have no installed a fuel injection made by KMS in the Netherlands, single throttle valves with stack. I have 4 option for different length of the stacks. the shortest was recommended for best engine performance. But the longest is not much worse. Just in regards to dust: which length of stacks would be good in order prevent dust getting into the stacks ? KMS does not offer standard filter for stacks. which stainless steel mesh is recommended for filtering ? any recommendation against rain at driving ?

thanks,

Uli

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