Fuel Injection

@otis posted:

  Dmoney74 & Shashi27 keep us posted how your Sniper setups go.  I have considered this setup. I would like to know the fitment of the Sniper distributor in relation to the back window and engine screen.  I would like to run my setup under a stock 74 engine screen. From what I have read many have more success with the Sniper FI if the full setup of Sniper distributor and ignition box is with it.

If you want to take full advantage of the Holley Sniper system, you can set it up to run a coil on plug ignition. You would have to install a cam position sensor, which will replace the distributor and eliminate any possible clearance issues that you would have with your engine cover screen. Of course, using a cam position sensor would require the uses of a crank position sensor, but it does make the set up almost like a modern car. I had no clearance issues with my engine cover screen when I used the FAST distributor on my EFI system. When I switched over to the FAST Dual Sync distributor, I had to trim on small piece of bracing on the engine cover screen to allow a couple of the spark plug wires to clear it, but the screen still fits. The installation of the FAST Dual Sync distributor allowed me to switch my system from a bank fired port injected EFI system to a sequential port EFI system. The sequential port system has been an improvement over the bank fired system. The engine runs smoother and my fuel mileage improved by about two miles per gallon.

Well. First lesson, if you are going to add a hyperspark distributor, do yourself a favor a figure out what metal you need to run on the distributor gear before you order the distributor. The gear in my car was bronze. Will save you time to ship the distributor back to Holley to exchange the gear, and $$ for the shipping. And the shipping is ridiculous. I can’t believe how expensive shipping is, even with USPS.

2nd lesson: if you're also thinking about a new steel roller cam, some U.S. cam grinders will replace their steel #1 cam journal & gear with a stock cast iron gear & #1 journal, keyed & pressed onto the steel cam. Then you can use a stock iron dizzy gear & no problems.  But you have to ask- the Cleveland is the only engine they do this for and the only one that needs it. Bullet Cams & I think Comp Cams.

Making progress, slowly!

-Added a Pantera Electriconics fuse box

-Removed the mechanical fuel pump and capped the hole

-Sniper unit, water temp sensor and O2 sensor are in the car, though not wired yet
- Hyperspark ignition box and coil are mounted on the bracket which goes behind the passenger seat

-Distributor is still with Holley having the gear changed

-Added new spark plugs and cut new ignition wires. I never did that before and his was strangely satisfying

-Fuel pump is back ordered but the tank is drained and cleaned in preparation. I read a few recommendations to add a rollover valve so waiting for that as well

So far so good.

Hall Pantera sells a DOT approved anti-rollover valve -it's a Ford part with an adapter for the unaltered Pantera fuel tank. Less than $50. I use one.

@otis posted:

  Dmoney74 & Shashi27 keep us posted how your Sniper setups go.  I have considered this setup. I would like to know the fitment of the Sniper distributor in relation to the back window and engine screen.  I would like to run my setup under a stock 74 engine screen. From what I have read many have more success with the Sniper FI if the full setup of Sniper distributor and ignition box is with it.

I installed the HyperSpark distributor. Let me know if these pics help with the question about the engine screen. Looks like a little interference.

Shashi

I have read the above posts with interest (and some confusion!). I have had plenty of issues with my Holley carb and I am seriously considering going to an 8-stack EFI. I'm running a 427 iron Dart block. When it was last dynoed about two years ago it was just over 650hp, but it's certainly not that now and is due for rings/bearings, a top-end refresh and a tune -  so thought I would do the EFI at the same time.

Can anyone suggest  a sensible 8 stack EFI option? I'm in New Zealand so Australian or NZ product would make sense but there are so many options out there. I just want the car to be mild race tune, and still streetable.

A great place to buy components is www.efihardware.com in Australia. If you want to buy a turn-key system, I can recommend www.AutotrendEFI.com but they are in Northern California. That being said, they ship to Australia on a regular basis so New Zealand shouldn’t be a problem. They certainly know Panteras.

What heads are you using? If you are using anything other than OEM 351C 2V or 4V heads, or aftermarket heads with the OEM 2V or 4V intake port size and location, finding an 8 stack manifold can be problematic.

For the ECU, I am using a Link for several years on an Audi 5 cylinder turbo and am very satisfied with it. Here is the link:

https://linkecu.com/

And they are in New Zealand

Decided to go in-tank considering how close the tank is to the driver’s head.

Hi all,

Also considering to shift to EFI (most likely Holly Sniper EFI) for my Pantera from 1974, since I anyway need to buy a new carb, the old one has been too modified irreversible from the previous owner for racing purposes.  Hence I'm very eager to hear all findings/feedback and experiences on this. If a "how to guide" for installation existed, even better. ;-)

Btw - my engine is 351 Cleveland, with some modifications...I don't even know all of them, since the previous owner didn't know them either.

BR

Bryske

There are plenty of U Tube Videos out there on fuel injection installations. It seems like the hot rod and restomod car people are moving in that direction a lot these days. If you want to keep it simple and less expensive, then consider a simple throttle body fuel injection system.  In my opinion, the most difficult part of those installations are installing the O2 sensor bung into the exhaust system and deciding on where to put the fuel pump. Holley and FAST to name just a couple have enough tuning data in their ECU to get you up and running. To get the most out of one of these system, some time on a chassis dyno with an operator that knows fuel injection will help to get the most out of the system. These aftermarket fuel injection systems have come a long way in the last ten years or so and are not the unreliable novelty that they were when they first came out.

Bryske,

Let me caution you about the Holley system.  About 5 years ago when I was having my '72 refreshed, I couldn't wait to have fuel injection installed.  The ritual of starting my car was such a pain in the rear, that I simply stopped driving it for years.  I was deliriously happy the first time I just turned the key and she started up without a protest.  That unbridled glee turned to terror when the car would get up to about 180*F, the f.i. would simply shut down leaving me stranded in some extremely dangerous situations.  I would have to sit there for 15-20 minutes allowing it to cool off before it would run again and I could pull out of danger.  This meant I would only drive the car in very cold temperatures and in Los Angeles, that isn't a normal occurance.    I had two very trusted mechanics that I have used for decades, try and diagnose the problem to no avail.  And Holley has not answered their phones since the beginning of the pandemic so getting tech support from them was impossible.  Four months ago,  I gave up and yanked the Holley fuel injection and replaced it with a Edelbrock carb and yes there is still a ritual starting the car, but I can do it without getting out of the car, pulling the air cleaner and dumping gas in the carb (which is what I did for the better part of 15 years.  And yes, it doesn't run quite as smoothly but I have been driving it now for several months every weekend, and have not had an incident since.  And just know that you're not going to get any help from Holley right now.  We tried dozens of times over a three month period, never once including an 8 hour stint of being on hold.  I would look into other systems that actually provide customer support.

@tberg posted:

Bryske,

Let me caution you about the Holley system.  About 5 years ago when I was having my '72 refreshed, I couldn't wait to have fuel injection installed.  The ritual of starting my car was such a pain in the rear, that I simply stopped driving it for years.  I was deliriously happy the first time I just turned the key and she started up without a protest.  That unbridled glee turned to terror when the car would get up to about 180*F, the f.i. would simply shut down leaving me stranded in some extremely dangerous situations.  I would have to sit there for 15-20 minutes allowing it to cool off before it would run again and I could pull out of danger.  This meant I would only drive the car in very cold temperatures and in Los Angeles, that isn't a normal occurance.    I had two very trusted mechanics that I have used for decades, try and diagnose the problem to no avail.  And Holley has not answered their phones since the beginning of the pandemic so getting tech support from them was impossible.  Four months ago,  I gave up and yanked the Holley fuel injection and replaced it with a Edelbrock carb and yes there is still a ritual starting the car, but I can do it without getting out of the car, pulling the air cleaner and dumping gas in the carb (which is what I did for the better part of 15 years.  And yes, it doesn't run quite as smoothly but I have been driving it now for several months every weekend, and have not had an incident since.  And just know that you're not going to get any help from Holley right now.  We tried dozens of times over a three month period, never once including an 8 hour stint of being on hold.  I would look into other systems that actually provide customer support.

It sounds like the problem that you had with your Holley EFI system could be a fuel enrichment table adjustment. My FAST XFI 2.05 system can enrich or lean the fuel air ratio at a given water operating temperature. I am quite sure that Holley would have the same feature. If the table is going too far one way or the other, then it could very well shut the engine down. Are you getting into the EFI program and looking for any fault codes? These systems have that ability, but in most cases you have to attach a laptop to them.

I agree that customer support with most of these EFI companies is not always good and that adds to the frustration. When you say that you have used good auto mechanics, are they experienced with aftermarket EFI systems and tuning them? I have stressed this before, but the shops that do these EFI conversions have people that know the aftermarket programs better than anyone.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: buy your EFI system from someone who specializes in aftermarket EFI. More specifically, someone who specializes in the installation and tuning of these systems; not just sales. Don't rely on the manufacturer's tech support. Once your problem leaves their troubleshooting flow chart, they are clueless. Most mechanics are clueless too. All they can do is guess and diagnose problems by trial and error.

I have a Holley EFI system and I'm always amazed by how well it runs. No hickups, no glitches, no problems. I've never even tried to call Holley EFI tech support. My dealer gives me all the tech support I need. 

@davidnunn posted:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: buy your EFI system from someone who specializes in aftermarket EFI. More specifically, someone who specializes in the installation and tuning of these systems; not just sales. Don't rely on the manufacturer's tech support. Once your problem leaves their troubleshooting flow chart, they are clueless. Most mechanics are clueless too. All they can do is guess and diagnose problems by trial and error.

I have a Holley EFI system and I'm always amazed by how well it runs. No hickups, no glitches, no problems. I've never even tried to call Holley EFI tech support. My dealer gives me all the tech support I need.

I totally agree with you! The hot rod tuners and shops deal with these systems a lot and understand the software. They are also use to tuning modified engines, which in most cases someone that is going to fuel inject a Pantera engine has  upgraded the camshaft and other components.  There are plenty of 1960's muscle cars running around on the street these days that make tons of horse power and are fuel injected. There doesn't seem to be that much talk about tuning and functioning problems with those cars, so I would say that a Pantera would not be any different.

Good news. After 3.5 years she came alive today. The Sniper started the car with just a twist of the key. I did have a significant fuel leak at the fuel tank module which I am hoping is the NPT outflow fitting and not the foam seal to the module itself. I didn’t realize the NPT fittings require sealant so will put that on tomorrow. I can’t drive her to really test her as I still have the rear brakes and suspension to rework.

For those looking to install the Sniper themselves I would say if I can do it, you can do it. I installed the Hyperspark setup (box, coil, and distributor) with the Sniper and the retro in-tank module, so mine was a little more involved, but not complicated. I have a lift which made it a lot easier, and I had to pop out the rear windows for access, but between the Holley videos and YouTube install videos it is pretty straightforward.

Not  great video, but great for me!

https://youtube.com/shorts/m4nkDw3-NT4?feature=share

😁😁 Congratulations ‼️

The joy of successfully completing  a project makes all the hard work, frustration and hours invested worth the effort.

i’m sure the fuel issue will be resolved and hope the suspension and brakes also go smoothly.

Larry

Congratulations shashi27 😎🤩

and I like your video, seems to run smooth now. ✌🏻

What Sniper EFI did you go with? The 4150 version or ?
And which fuel pump version?
Thx in advance

Br Chris

Hi Chris. I went with the 4150 Sniper unit. For the pump I went with the Sniper Diecast 340 LPH In-Tank RetroFit Fuel Module w/Return.

Shashi

My shop is installing a Holley sniper stealth, and if all goes well will have it back this week or next.   I will upload some pictures and a video if I can.   I didn’t get the hyper spark system with it, but may have it installed later.   I purchased my system from EFI system pro and have they have a dedicated line to call if there is any questions or problems.  I heard to many stories about how hard it was to contact Holley directly.   They were very helpful, and knowledgeable about a Pantera.  The guy knew all the parts it would need to get the system installed properly.  

Awesome. Good luck! When I get the rear end done I plan to take her to a Holley distributor who can tune it on a dyno.

Thx for info shashi27, appreciate it alot. :-)

Dmoney74, did you manage toget yours done? Any pictures and info?

cheers

chris

shashi27 your work looks nice and I am interested in the in tank fuel pump setup too. Did the engine screen ever clear the tight space between the distributor and window?

I have no installed a fuel injection made by KMS in the Netherlands, single throttle valves with stack. I have 4 option for different length of the stacks. the shortest was recommended for best engine performance. But the longest is not much worse. Just in regards to dust: which length of stacks would be good in order prevent dust getting into the stacks ? KMS does not offer standard filter for stacks. which stainless steel mesh is recommended for filtering ? any recommendation against rain at driving ?

thanks,

Uli

@otis posted:

shashi27 your work looks nice and I am interested in the in tank fuel pump setup too. Did the engine screen ever clear the tight space between the distributor and window?

Otis. Sorry I never responded. I’ll take a look tomorrow and see if the screen fits. Shashi

@otis posted:

shashi27 your work looks nice and I am interested in the in tank fuel pump setup too. Did the engine screen ever clear the tight space between the distributor and window?

Hi Otis, Sorry for the delay in responding. The engine screen fits with no clearance issues. Thanks.