Gear shifting problems

ON my car when I was at Monticello Raceway ... it was the slave cylinder ... it was not pushing the clutch far enough to engage it ... I changed the slave and the master and now it works perfect.

Adjustment required. If it was going into first when the lever was in the third gate, it's clearly misadjusted.
Were all the shifter rods removed or adjusted?
I adjusted mine at the closest point to the ZF entry.
I started with the left to right adjustment. The alignment with the splines will adjust this.
Then I put the shifter in second and look at where it sits. Then I put it in third at look at where it sits. Just make the distance even.
Will

quote:

Originally posted by 4NHOTROD:
I started with the left to right adjustment. The alignment with the splines will adjust this.

Initially the splines (if everything was taken apart), fine-tuning can be done by turning the middle rod.

I had a simillar problem at Watkins Glen. It turned to be a broken E clip on the shifters cross shaft. Hope it is not that.
Mark

Alfa4Fun, I sounds to me like something came loose. The ZF worked fine for a few laps then you lost third. If the shift rod does not solve the problem it is most likely internal. Cross shaft or bent shift fork.

BTW this thread should be in the ZF forum. I wonder if George will catch this? HE HE HE

I was testing the Pantera so each time I came back in, the gearbox had about 30 min to cool down while we tried to make adjustments.

So I wonder if the problem isn't coming from a overheated gearbox (loosing gears)?

The problem with the gearbox going into first is something else because it happened twice, leaving the pitbox with a cool gearbox.

We build a guidance for the with a uniball for the rod between the lever and the gearbox and maybe that is the problem.

When I think about it, it might also have been the fact that I didn't push the pedal far enough because I really had to stretch my leg to push it to the end.

Anywhay, I'll see if I have some pictures of the guidance system with the unbiball.

Thx for your help so far.

Go with a cable shifter and end the problem.

The cable might be a good idea instead of a steel rod.

Better picture of the car (I hope waiting in the pit lane.

Check out MalinMotors.com for cable shifter.

http://malinmotors.com/product...eKit/p_cableKit.html

Thx for the link, I just send the a message.

quote:

Originally posted by ALFA4FUN:
The cable might be a good idea instead of a steel rod.

The cable shifter was created to solve a problem ... a problem in the GT40 car hobby. It wasn't originally intended for the Pantera hobby. Although I see that Malin Motors is marketing them for that purpose now. My advice is to speak with Lloyd Butfoy of RBT Transmissions BEFORE you purchase a cable shifter. He has experience with them.

My Pantera shifts buttery smooth, it only takes two fingers to easily move the shift lever from gear to gear ... completely stock shift linkage. So is the likage really the problem? It would be a shame to spend the money on a cable shifter when adjutment and lubrication was all that was required. Or worse yet, to install a cable shifter only to find the transmission continues to shift with difficulty.

Out of curiosity, was your ZF recently serviced, rebuilt or repaired?

-G

I know Lloyd runs a cable shifter in his personal Pantera along with his 6-speed ZF. I did ask him about it once and his response was mostly because I can. LOL He did not really sing its praise's

Could the problem be get rid of the hard to shift, always needing adjustment, trunion bearing friction, exhaust heating the rod which causes expansion of the rod diameter that must slide and rotate through the trunion bearing?

I personally have never run one...but it sure makes more sense. Long travel, mid travel sand rails have been running them for years.

What kind of gear oil are you using? Your problem sounds like it could be heat related.

I had the wrong gear oil in my box for a short time, and when it got hot, the shifting went bad. After it cooled, it was OK. Switched to a GL-4 rated 85W-90 and all was well.

Just change over to the new cable shift system, its awesome!!!!! ur car will shift like a new modern one in every gear

just my .02

Many intresting opinions and suggestions here and I think enough to find a solution.

The main problem is that it shifts well stationary and the first laps and then gradually becomes more difficult, although this is common with race cars.

The solution with the cable shifter look's a good idea but I think I first have to find out some other things.

@ Dave 2811 : the oil I'm using is most certainly not as thick as the one you use. I already chanced the engine oil after one session because when hot, oil pressure dropped below 2 BAR which is to low for a race engine.

@ Cowboy from Hell : I had the gearbox overhauled by a specialist that was recommended to me here in Belgium. Didn't he do a good job ? I don't know.

@ Marlin Jack : I don't need a plate to shift. I've been racing since the mid 90's (mostly with a right hand car being a left hand driver) and if you're a racer, you would know that if you shift back from second to first @ 7000 rpm that you have only a split second to react or you loose the car, certainly when you are going up the radillon in Spa Fracorchamps. The way you put it is insulting, let's keep it to that.

quote:

Originally posted by ALFA4FUN:
@ Dave 2811 : the oil I'm using is most certainly not as thick as the one you use. I already chanced the engine oil after one session because when hot, oil pressure dropped below 2 BAR which is to low for a race engine.

We are talking about gear oil, not engine oil. You need GL-4 (or 5 if you can't find 4) 85W-90. If your gear oil is too thin due to heating or there is a friction modifier in the blend, the synchros won't bite and spin up the gearset for a smooth shift.

quote:

Originally posted by ALFA4FUN:

@ Cowboy from Hell : I had the gearbox overhauled by a specialist that was recommended to me here in Belgium. Didn't he do a good job ? I don't know.

You may want to question the specialist and ask him where he sourced the parts, specifically the synchro rings. The factory rings sold by RBT are iron. Some suppliers choose to supply less-expensive brass synchros. Lloyd Butfoy (RBT) does not approve of that substitution.

I also believe Dave 2811 may be on to something.

Best Wishes

-G

@ Dave2811 : I did understand that you ment the gearbox oil. I've been working in a workshop where the Pantera is the only old car. The rest are modern cars like Porsches, Astons, Vipers etc. The oil they use for these modern engines is as thin as water so I changed it after ons session. Maybe the oil they used for the gearbox is just as thin and that might be the problem. Only, I can't find out right now because the owner of the shop is on a holiday for 11 days so I don't have acces to the car.

I'll keep you posted.

It strikes a nerve when people chime in and really don't know what they are talking about. I had zero problems with my stock shifter , but just wanted to update my 30+ year old design. I'm glad I did, my car shifts like a modern car of today, no I did not have any problems with my ZF before the change over.

LLoyd certainly knows what he's talking about, my hat off to him, but if he doesn't choose to comment on the cable kit, does that mean it not worth buying??? Come on guys !!!

Its a great update for our cars, now if the $ is an issue ,don't trash talk

my .02

quote:

Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:

quote:

Originally posted by ALFA4FUN:
The cable might be a good idea instead of a steel rod.

The cable shifter was created to solve a problem ... a problem in the GT40 car hobby. It wasn't originally intended for the Pantera hobby. Although I see that Malin Motors is marketing them for that purpose now. My advice is to speak with Lloyd Butfoy of RBT Transmissions BEFORE you purchase a cable shifter. He has experience with them.

My Pantera shifts buttery smooth, it only takes two fingers to easily move the shift lever from gear to gear ... completely stock shift linkage. So is the likage really the problem? It would be a shame to spend the money on a cable shifter when adjutment and lubrication was all that was required. Or worse yet, to install a cable shifter only to find the transmission continues to shift with difficulty.

Out of curiosity, was your ZF recently serviced, rebuilt or repaired?

-G

The cable shifter may have been first made for the GT40 but is also made for the Pantera now. And as for Lloyd Butfoy he does nice work but the shifter he has in his car, is as it was produced. The Shifter kit I am selling has been modified by me and works much better than when they were made.I have installed many of these in panteras and it is a huge improvement over the old rod /linkage design.

One problem with the orignal shifter is when you set up the adjustment the engine is not running, and it is stationary. When you are driving the engine under load it lifts to the passanger side, as you shift to the 2/3rd and 4/5 side of the gate you are chasing the adjustment. The stick lever always rubs on the gate as you chase the movement. With the cable shifter, this never can happen because the cable system does not get affected by the engine moving to the passanger side. Once the adjustment is made it just stays put and stays the same.


Thanks,James Malin
www.malinmotors.com

Ps. Glad to answer question anyone might have.

quote:

Thanks,James Malin
www.malinmotors.com

Ps. Glad to answer question anyone might have.

Okay, I'll bite. How much for a complete cable system?

Steve

Coming into this discussion late- sorry but here's a few comments. I can make any stock Pantera shift lever go into the wrong gate-slot... simply by shifting so fast that I 'beat' the transmission synchros and twist the long shift rods. This used to happen to me a lot when I was autocrossing, until I slowed down my shifts and went quicker as a result. I also removed the stock finger-gate on the console, as it's much harder so it wears and will ultimately break a Pantera shift stick. Check yours for a groove worn in the side from the gate. I've seen grooves more than halfway thru; they are not easily repairable nor cheap.

Three mechanical things to look at in your racer: first, worn or aged motormount rubber isolators or loose bolts will allow the whole powertrain to shift slightly under power and it gets worse as things get hot. Next is a worn, loose or mis-adjusted shift rod support trunnion under the left header. Finally, many of us in the U.S. remove the redundent shift detent under the shift lever and rely only on the detent built into the ZF. This was a D. Quella mod' from the '80s that's so simple and effective to do, he doesn't even charge for removing it on cars in his shop.

As George mentioned, Lloyd originally developed the cable shifter to work with the ZF 6-speed option when he was trying to sell it to Ford for the then-new Ford GT, but he said it was expensive and no real improvement over a stock Pantera. He sold the design to another group who has developed it further, so today's unit is somewhat different from his original. I had a sample to fiddle with last year and it's well made but quite heavy. IMHO it WILL solve the shifter-in-the-wrong-slot-for-the-tranny-gear, and WILL compensate for aged or loose motor mount components but will NOT solve a too-fast shift that binds up the synchros inside the ZF.

FWIW, the steel-on-steel ZF synchro design is almost identical to the early Porsche 911, which can also be 'beat' by shifting too fast for the steel synchros. Don't know who licensed the design from whom. Note the ZF is a '60s design well before synthetic diff-lubes appeared. I only use 80W90 mineral oil diff-lube with limited-slip additive in it. YMMV.

Also FWIW, Porsche (911 & 914) used to have a cable shifter that was often criticised for being vague; the mid-engined Pontiac Fiero had a cable shifter as did the MR-2 Turbo and I've had trouble with all of them. Cable alignment is critical: I've owned and driven them all in anger and see no advantage over a properly adjusted Pantera rod-shifter.

I’m with George on this.
When I first purchased my Pantera I found I was shifting too fast & the result was sometimes I would shift up to 2nd, but end up with 4th.
After more practice I found slow down the shift, be more precise, but gentle.
And it shifted much better.
I then changed the ZF lubricant to Redline “lightweight shockproof gear oil” (75W140) & noticed a much smoother shift yet again.
The result being with practice & the better oil I can shift a bit quicker & be confident of a clean shift.
I have found that when you have shifted too fast & its heading for the wrong gear you can feel it happening & have time to go back & do it again before it turns to #@**.
I wouldn’t mind trying the cable shift.
I have an acquaintance that I suggested the cable shift to & he has installed it on his ZF.
So I’m waiting on feedback as to the result.
Let someone else spend the bucks & be the guinea pig!

Regards,
Tony.

Tony, keep me posted on how the guinea pig is doing

Sure, no problem.
The car in question is a Giocattolo, (Italian for “toy”).
Which is an Alfa Romeo sprint powered by a 5 litre mid mount Holden V8, (Chev derivative) hooked up to a Pantera ZF transaxle.
Paul Halstead who was the Australian Pantera importer built 15 of these cars in the 1980’s.

regards,
Tony.

quote:

Originally posted by Edge: Sure, no problem. The car in question is a Giocattolo, (Italian for “toy”).
Which is an Alfa Romeo sprint powered by a 5 litre mid mount Holden V8, (Chev derivative) hooked up to a Pantera ZF transaxle. Paul Halstead who was the Australian Pantera importer built 15 of these cars in the 1980’s.
regards,
Tony.

Link

http://alfasud.alfisti.net/gioe.html

K

Careful with your "toy", Edge. You may have the only one left running... many have been totalled and a couple of drivers killed. The pieces of one such are in a beautiful pushbutton Pantera in your area.

The Giocattolo is not mine, but belongs to an acquaintance who owns two of them.
One a street car & the other a race car.
The Giocattolo receiving the cable shift is now fitted with an LS1.

(I'm more interested in the cable shift for my Pantera if it proves to be an improvement in the Giocattolo).

I believe one of the Giocattolo’s written off was a police car.

The other one was a situation of gross stupidity.
This particular Giocattolo was crashed on a drag strip.
For some inexplicable reason the driver was doing a speed run traveling in the wrong direction down a drag strip.
Something went wrong with the car & he hit the huge concrete wall before the staging lanes.
(Impossible to happen if he had been traveling in the correct direction on the drag strip).

Bosswrench, I’m amazed that you know so much about what is going on in the world of Pantera’s & where the parts end up!

Regards,
Tony.

There is one part of the Pantera shift lever system that hasn't been mentioned yet: the shift lever bushings. When I was restoring Zonkey I installed one of Quella's newly released shift rods with the stainless shaft section and a solid ball in socket support. Things worked fine until I installed the gate (fingers had been removed long before. I couldn't adjust it so that I could get both R and 5th. Before, with a Hall teflon support, it had worked fine. Also, I'd replaced all the linkage U-Joints with newer and "tighter" ones.

I called Wilkinson and he said that the bronze bushings and shaft that support the shift lever were probably the problem:
http://www.panterasbywilkinson.../catalog/ill10a.html
parts 18 and 19. I think he sold them to me as a kit. That solved the problem. Before I fixed it there was probably 1/4" of free play at the top of the shift lever (the detent had been removed). My conclusion was that the Quella shaft had added just enough extra free play to cause the problem and removing all free play at the lever fixed it. I had a bit over 100K miles on the car then. Low milage cars should probably not have the problem.

This is probably not the problem here but is something everyone should be aware of.

Finally the shop keeper is back in town so I have acces to my car.

In the pictures you can see two things :

getting the car into first has always been a problem, the shifting plate and the lever show damage. It was like that when I bought it but I didn't give it much attention since the first gear is only used dring start procedures in a race car.

Do other owners have the same problem with the first gear ?

the other picture is how we made the guide for the shaft. In my opninion it gives enough room to do a proper shifting.

first picture

second picture

I this shows de damage better.

Shifter wear like that is fairly common.

@ Marlin Jack : I don't need a plate to shift. I've been racing since the mid 90's (mostly with a right hand car being a left hand driver) and if you're a racer, you would know that if you shift back from second to first @ 7000 rpm that you have only a split second to react or you loose the car, certainly when you are going up the radillon in Spa Fracorchamps. The way you put it is insulting, let's keep it to that.[/QUOTE]

...I tried to tell You!

I believe You Misunderstand the Physics involved, surrounding the 'Trunnion Bearing'!!

These pics show ALL that 'I' Need as far as the 'Art' Of 'Gear Shifting' , goes...

I Machine these Plates for My Preferred Customers! 1/4" Thick Aluminum Plate, Perfect Fit, Absolute Clearance for the Shift Lever! 4 Cap Screws are Included. $85. USD plus Shipping.

...ALL that I 'Feel' are the Detents IN the transaxle and the Smoothest Meshing of Syncros to Gears!!
NO Cables!
NO Play!
NO Gates!
NO Trunnion Slop!
U-Joints Tight!

Perfect Shifts!
EVERY-TIME!!

My Opinion is...You can Feel Exact 'FeedBack' through the 'Rod'! Provided it is Set-Up Properly!
You Don't get FeedBack Through Cables and Bellcranks in 2 Dimensions! What are You? Kiddin Me!? Or Kiddin Yourself!!

This TransAxle will Last Forever!!...

...ONE More thing!!!

The Number 1 Mistake ALL of us Make is:
NOT getting the 'Clutch Pedal' ALL-THE-WAY to the Floor!...