Goose Starter

Bob, have you talked to Steve L? He would probably know for sure.

Mark

Bob,

You should be using a standard tranny starter as I recall. I didn't write down the casting number of the nose.....stupid me!

If yours has been too short, perhaps someone replaced the flywheel with a newer style somewhere along the way, and you actually need a longer nose, automatic style.

I will be pulling my motor out, to fit a new one, once I can get my intake/jackshaft/air cleaner issues sorted and will be able to confirm.

I just dug out the parts book for the Goose, and on page 54 there is a starter indicated "solo 289" (only 289) (I need to know what flywheel this fits!!!) as C7AF-1001-B which in the Ford parts book is replaced by C20Z-B which is replaced today by D40Z-A and is spec'd for an auto trans!!! Since your car is so early, 15th built roughly, did your car get a 289?

Further, on page 68 we find another starter listed, and this is the one I expect to find with all 302's since they used the regular Mustang/Cougar etc stick flywheel... C7AF-11001-F, replaced by C5TZ-D, "solo 302" (only 302) which indeed is a M/T version and has a shorter nose as the teeth are close to the block on this version of starter.

When using a Ford bellhousing, they had bumps in the unit that wouldn't allow you to run the auto trans unit. Only the shorter nose would fit!!!! ...until late model starters came along....then they all used the same thing! About time!!!! (1983ish and the start of the 5.0 revolution!)

Anyway, hope this helps! Haven't been here a while as I've been wrapped up in too much other stuff!!!
Steve

I guess I will try the auto starter. Here is the deal. I have my mangusta engine on an engine stand that I normally use for 351c engines and you are right. When I tried to install the starter it hit the bump on the 351c bellhouse and broke the starter tab. Like a fool I threw it away. I now am using the mangusta bell housing.

This early mangusta has a lot of strange parts on it. You could tell that the engine had never been out of the car. But the engine is a 302 with a different number 302/0083. I can only assume the factory install this different numbered engine. Not sure what was going on, but the engine had different ford internal and external parts like 289 hipo counter balance, hipo flywheel and harmonic balancer, hipo carb and modified oil pan stamped by detomaso.

Steve, thanks for your help

Bob,

Since you have the motor out, look at the ring gear and see if the teeth are at the edge of the flywheel closest to the engine. IF they are closest to the edge where the clutch mounts, then you will need the automatic flywheel.

I would LOVE to have all the numbers on your engine when you get a chance, both casting numbers and date codes.

There is a casting number on the flywheel too, as well as perhaps a stamped number in about 1/4" letters. Also dated...

I would like numbers from: Cylinder block, heads, intake, distributor, carb, flywheel if available. Also the casting number on the harmonic balancer too. (May need to pull off the pulley to see these.

While you are at it, if the crank and water pump pulleys are Ford steel items, they may also have numbers. If can get them, it would verify a source of easy to get (relatively!) pulleys rather than the hard to find cast iron DeT versions!!

Reason I ask, is that I have only ever seen early car #508, and it would be interesting to compare numbers with it! It indeed is a hipo.

Car #760, which I sold to the UK, had a steel Ford pulley on the crank and I'm guessing a matching water pump pulley.

My car, $878, has cast iron pulleys. Why DeT would choose to machine new parts...is odd. Not necessarily for ol' Alejandro...but odd.

Also, do you have a full sized block plate (behind the flywheel) on the motor, or a cut one to just cover the lower part of the exposed flywheel?

Any chance you have the bracket on the RH side of the intake that is supposed to hold the spark plug wires off of the jackshaft? I sent one to the UK without copying it....stupid me!

Hope this helps!
Steve

Steve, I will get you the #'s. The problem with the starter is that is not close enough to engage the flywheel. When the starter is turning there is approximately an 1/8 gap between the starter gear and the flywheel gear. Any ideas ?

Bob,

I would pick up a starter for an automatic car. Sounds like the ring gear is located to the clutch side of the flywheel.

Steve

Tried the auto starter, but it does not work. The diameter of the starter gear is too small - turns but misses the flywheel by 1/8". The two gears are sid-by-side, just not close enought together to engage.

Bob,

Send me the number off of the starter noses that you are using. Since the latter one seems to line up properly, that one will do.

I have a feeling that there may be an issue with the nose.....it is either that, or your flywheel is a smaller diameter.

If you can get me the casting number off of the rear of the flywheel, that would be great too!

Email it to me if possible.
Steve

Steve, If he had one of those yellow industrial engines, would that explain the issue?

Larry

Nope. He has already confirmed that he has a 289HiPo, but the parts books show different flywheel and starters for that!!!!

Just trying to figure out what he's using for the starter....now. He tossed the old one....after something broke....

Steve

Thanks for the help. After more than 4 months of research, it looks like the only way I can get a starter to work is to change to a larger flywheel.

Bob,

You spent plenty of time doing research, just not at the right place!!!

Since your motor is on the stand, do yourself a BIG favor and get me the casting numbers off of the flywheel, and any stamped numbers that may appear. (You may need to look carefully for the stamped numbers!)

You have NOTHING special in your car that wasn't used in other Fords of the 65-69 time frame in Hi-Po Mustangs... You are just not talking to the right sources. I have access to the same books that the Ford parts guys have, perhaps more!

DON'T go buying another flywheel. It probably won't fit in your early style (smaller) diameter bellhousing! If you do, of course then all you will need to fit the new flywheel is a new bellhousing, figure about $2000-3000 for one of those as they are everywhere....!!!

You could also take a picture of the flywheel, thru the starter mounting hole in the block plate and post it here! Might be able to see something that you are missing.

You never did mention how many teeth were on the ring gear? (You never got me any of the other stuff I asked for either, so I can tell you what you have!!! No pictures.....You're leaving us hungry here!!! GREAT opportunity to document a bonafide hipo 289 equipped Goose!!! Perhaps one of the last!)

All you have is a starter problem. Remember? You had all the same parts as before, just that you tossed the starter (nose?) out! Don't go replacing the car just because you lost the key!!!!! We just need to get you on the path to the right starter!

Hang in there and quit messing around!! The experts are here to help you! Just gotta feed us the right info!

You need a starter for a hipo 289 equipped Mustang, 1965-66 is my guess. But get the right info to me and I will be able to confirm this!!!! You have determined that the nose of the auto starter version puts the gear in the right location, but perhaps you need a larger diameter starter nose bendix gear, OR a slight different starter nose.....

Need more info! Call me if you don't understand what I'm rambling about! I'm in the POCA roster.

Steve

Bob,
What bellhousing do you have? Did you replace it with this engine work you have been doing by any chance?

Flywheel: parts book says your 157T C30Z-6375-E flywheel should be stamped #C7ZE-A. Gotta look carefully for this around the outer edge. 1/4" tall stamped letters, not cast.

(If you find #C7OE-A it should be a 164T ring gear.)

Starters: Book shows this, for 1965-1966 289MT C20Z-11002-B is replaced by D40Z-1102-A (SA-660) which appears to have been replaced by E4DB-1102-B (SA-734B). That is a 1984 starter that you should be able to get easily. The SA-734B is an industry interchange number of some sort.......

The short story, is that there are basically two types of small block starter noses in this time frame, a short one, and a long one. You need the longer one, but something else appears to have changed.........like a bellhousing.....or so....

I confirmed that the bendix drive gear is the same on almost all starters except for 6 cylinders. Small block to big block all use the same piece.

Again, give me a call if you can, or look me up in Reno tomorrow....

Ciao!
Steve

Just to wrap this up. The problem was that the replacement engine (Mustang) had a smaller 157 tooth flywheel. So to make the starter work, who ever installed the engine drilled another hole in the bell housing to relocate the starter closer. There was no starter on the car when I purchased it. I am now having the correct flywheel built so that the proper starter can be correctly located - What a pain!

I probably have the flywheel you need. I truly don't believe you need a special starter, especially if you have an extra hole drilled. In reality, you should be able to find whatever starter was on there before.

You can borrow my flywheel for test-fitment.

Bob,
You are working WAY too hard on this! You need to bottle up some of that energy and send it up to me so I can get rolling on my car!!!

Sounds to me like the replacement engine is indeed a stock hipo with the correct flywheel and someone busted a bellhousing, replacing it with a later version requiring the starter hole to be re-drilled....

BTW, the Goose motors were Mustang motors...same exact piece.....

There are two or three different versions of bellhousings, and there IS a bellhousing that accepts the 157T flywheel. It is just a very early piece and very rare! Not impossible to find....just harder than the other one!

So, if you want to rebuild your car properly you may want the proper bellhousing to match the stock flywheel....

Otherwise just order a flywheel for a 68 Cougar or Mustang with manual trans and a 302. Fits perfect. No reason to have one made up special........should be an off the shelf part.

Good luck!
Steve