GT5 & GT5-S Production Numbers

Here is a photo of the GT5 that debuted at the 1980 Turin Motor Show:

Here is a photo I took of 9250. It is a right hand drive car reportedly imported into Australia by Paul Halstead's company De Tomaso Australia, and owned by his retail outlet The Toy Shop until being sold to the present owner.

De Tomaso Australia was that country's Amerisport. Halstead earned export credits by selling Australian 351C engines to De Tomaso in Italy, and those export credits allowed him to import Panteras minus the engines. He then installed the Australian engines in them and sold them through The Toy Shop.

quote:

Originally posted by lashss:
Peter, how many 9000 serial numbers were unused?

I've always wondered why there always appear to be more GT5-S cars "around" than GT5s.

This thread could shed some light onto the subject.

LSJ

As far as I know only the numbers 9563 to 9600, inclusive, were not used. [since I wrote this I found out that the VIN 9600 was, in fact, used for the 90 Si test mule. The gap, therefore, is only from 9563 to 9599, inclusive]

The last VIN in the Pantera run was 9641, which is the De Tomaso museum 90 Si.

One more update to this post: I know of at least one unfinished 90 Si chassis, #9647, and supposedly there are three more. These bare frames are being sold to people who want to build new "continuation" 90 Si's. In 2016, Garage Daytona II in Codroipone, Italy, advertised a completed continuation 90 Si for sale with 0 km for 255k Euro. Steve Wilkinson reportedly acquired a couple of 90 Si frames, one of which was used to restore #9107, but I do not know if these frames had serial numbers.

#9555 is a well-travelled car. It started out in the UK, went to Japan for a while, then back to the UK and now to the U.S.:

It is a very handsome example of the breed:

The 9000 series registry is now up to 423 of the 603 known late model Panteras (Maggiora Carrozzeria and Embo Carrozzeria). This means we now have just over 70% catalogued. I thought this was as good a milestone as any to re-run the production numbers, so I did that today and was surprised to find that the number of GT5-S cars that could have been built has not changed much, but the number of possible GT5 Panteras has dropped dramatically. Conversely, the number of narrow bodies built in the 9000 series has jumped substantially.

Narrow Body

I have been able to confirm that at least 8 L model Panteras were built in the 9000 series. All of these were Maggiora coaches except #9158, which was a 1980 Embo car. At least three base model Panteras were also built (ie with no model designation from the factory than just “Pantera”), all Maggiora cars.

I have been able to identify 37 GTS cars during the Maggiora period (this is probably a very low number and I expect to find many more with time), plus 80 during the Embo period for a total of 117 late model GTS Panteras with 9000 series VINs.

Other

There is also a smattering of one-off and “speciale” cars, with designations such as GT4 Stradale, Gr3, GTS/4, GTS Gr 3, GTS/4 Gr.3, GT5 Gr.3, and so on.

Also of interest is #9600, which is noted by the factory as a 90Si but is in fact a GT5-S body with prototype 90 Si mechanicals.

GT5

The GT5 debuted at the Turin motor show in 1980. Determining the exact number of GT5s produced requires knowing, as a starting point, the first and last VINs. However, because no one except Phil Olczyk, as keeper of the factory records, knows the VIN of the first official GT5 and he has declined to reveal it, I have been greatly handicapped in this exercise.

Matt Stone and Rob de la Rive Box thought the first “factory-noted” GT5 was #9250. In their book Pantera Buyers Guide, they wrote that prior GT5s were "probably recorded as modified GTS units from about late 1980". However, factory records prove this is incorrect because #9250 has been confirmed to have been a 1982 car exported to Australia and assembled there, and a number of factory-noted GT5 Panteras are known to have been built with lower VINs.

The earliest factory-noted Pantera GT5 I have on record so far is #9127, which is a 1981 RHD located in Australia.  However, many cars are still missing from the registry and an earlier one could pop up at any time. In short, we can only speculate about the start of GT5 production. That said, it is highly unlikely that GT5 production would have started with Maggiora Carozzeria given the troubled nature of their relationship with De Tomaso. The best guess is that De Tomaso switched coach makers to Embo Carozzeria with VIN 9100, and I think it is reasonable to assume that no true GT5 will have a lower VIN than that. 

I know that #9100 is a GTS, but I have not been able to document #9101 and so, on the reasoning above, that will be the first possible GT5.

The last GT5 in the official production run is #9374, built in 1985 (we know this for a fact because the next VIN up was the first GT5-S). However, there were more GT5 Panteras built as special orders after that, although so far I have only found two (mine, #9517, which was a 1989 model year and #9542, a GT5 RHD currently being restored in the UK). 

On the assumption that the chassis were numbered in unbroken sequence, then, if we subtract the first car’s chassis number from the last, we can get a reasonable idea of the maximum number of cars that could have been produced:

9374 - 9101 = 273 cars + 1

If you then add the two GT5s built later during the GT5-S production run, we can reasonably assume a maximum of 276 cars that could have been produced. Then we have to subtract the number of GTS, L and various racing Panteras built during the GT5 production run, because these other models were produced concurrently within this VIN range. I have found 78 non-GT5 cars so far, although I fully expect more were made during this period. Therefore, my best calculation of the maximum possible number of GT5 Panteras is as follows:

276 - 78 = Max 198 GT5

This number could go down if I find more non-GT5 Panteras with chassis numbers between 9100 and 9374, and it could go up if I find more GT5 cars with VINs above 9374.

GT5-S

The first GT5-S is known to be 9375, a 1985, and the last is the last GT5-S is 9562, a 1990.

9562 - 9375 = 187 + 1

I am aware of three GTS Panteras and two GT5s having been built during this interval so;

188 - 5 = Max 183 GT5-S

The number may go down if I find other (non-GT5-S) models with chassis numbers within the GT5-S range but, for the time being, this is the best estimate of the maximum total number of GT5-S Panteras likely to have been produced, and I expect it to stay relatively stable because of the high percentage of the GT5-S cars that I have been able to find.

Thank you to all the people who have helped with the detective work required to get the registry across the 70% threshold, including Mike Drew, Julian Kift, Rob Covey, Chuck Melton, Franz Krump, Charles McCall, George Pence, Jack DeRyke, Kirk Evans, Rene Killer, Pat Hals, Mark Charlton, David Berman, Claude Dubois, Simon Vels, Joe Nardo, Roger Brotton, Roland Jaeckel, Kjell Jansson, Mark Reber, Chris Beck, Masayoshi Mitsui, Michel Savard, Denis Caron, Gerry Romack, Marcel Schaub, Phil Stebbings and Lashdeep Singh.  

Please keep those tips coming, gentlemen!

Phil Olczyk has reached out to me to express concern regarding what I wrote about him above, and so I would like to clarify my comment that he has declined to assist with establishing the VIN of  the first GT5 using the factory records he has acquired.

While what I wrote is true (Phil advised me on January 27th that he will not continue to help without being paid), I should have acknowledged that he had previously provided some information from his files, both here on this board and in private correspondence with me.  Although not relevant to the question of the first GT5, his information was otherwise helpful and so I do owe him thanks for that.

The fact remains, however, that the answer to the question of the first factory-noted GT5 is in the factory records that Phil is selling and, until and unless he volunteers that answer (or until some wealthy benefactor agrees to pay him), we may never know with 100% certainty. 

Thanks to forum member LarryW for pointing out to me that not counting #9000 affects my totals. I should have explained that there is evidence that De Tomaso started the 9000 series with #9001. 

However, while not counting #9000 does not affect the total, there was a #9375 for the GT5-S calculations which Larry is correct that I should have added to the GT5-S total, and so I have fixed my math accordingly.

I made the same error in my GT5 math, but it does not affect the total because #9100 turns out to be a confirmed GTS.

Thanks for your sharp eye, Larry!

I used to own 1985 GT5 9334.  Legendary Motorcars purchased it from me and it was recently sold.  Not sure where it went.  I still have most of the ownership documentation.

https://www.legendarymotorcar....antera-gt5-1995.aspx

Wonder wwhat they were asking for it.

And two GT5 cars coming up for sale from Guy Anderson's stable at Mecum Indy in May, sure would be good if anyone is attending to get VIN details to help Peter out!

https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0...etomaso-pantera-gt5/

https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0...etomaso-pantera-gt5/

From the 'Official 40th Anniversary 1959-1999' booklet handed out to event participants. Produced by the DeTomaso Factory (black cover, 3/4-rear view of a Pantera GTS on front, photo of a Pantera GTS on the old factory assembly line in Modena. 24 full color pgs).

"Pantera 1970-1990: about 7260 built (includes narrow body GTS, GT-5 and GT5-S plus 'Pantera' 1990-1992 (the factory never used 'si' to describe these last cars) ; about 38 of these built". Note- no factory official totals except for all Panteras lumped together, and even that number is approximate. The last batch of what some call 'Pantera SI' were sufficiently different that the Italian Gov't forced DeTomaso to re-certify it with a crash test. It also has a different Tipo number).

Not in the booklet- three GT5-S cars were factory-converted to Targa type tops. Of the 3 known Targa-Panteras, two were built with Getrag 6-speed transaxles sourced from the Audi RS-2. One is Austrian Franz Krump's 'cirrus-blue' Targa-Pantera; the other is a yellow Targa in Switzerland). A single non-Targa GT5-S was also equipped with a six-speed Getrag. A 3rd Targa-top GT5-S apparently had a std ZF 5-speed.

All the DeTomaso road cars from Vallelunga to Guara are listed in the booklet, together with their spec's and official production numbers. They all start with 'about....' The single exception was the Guara, since at the time of printing of the booklet (cf. text pg 3) in 1993, the Guara was still in occasional production at DeTomaso-Modena, until the following year. Apparently the Pantera (all versions) had ceased production by the time of printing of this factory booklet, but as usual, that's a guess too....

J DeRyke  (Thanks, Peter)

bosswrench posted:

Not in the booklet- three GT5-S cars were factory-converted to Targa type tops. Of the 3 known Targa-Panteras, two were built with Getrag 6-speed transaxles sourced from the Audi RS-2. One is Austrian Franz Krump's 'cirrus-blue' Targa-Pantera; the other is a yellow Targa in Switzerland). A single non-Targa GT5-S was also equipped with a six-speed Getrag. A 3rd Targa-top GT5-S apparently had a std ZF 5-speed.

 

I think you mean Si and not GT5-S ?

from what I remember there are 4 Si Targa's  . 1 red, 1 blue , 1 yellow and 1 gold painted.

Simon

Peter many years ago you and I discussed a red "GT5". I believe it was in Spain. It may have belonged to a forum member. Or it may have been for sale on eBay. I really don't remember any longer. I've searched my records for a picture of it, but came up empty handed.

I'd be surprised if you didn't retain some information about it.

The unique thing about the car, it had factory original GT5 body work, but the factory ID plate on the foot box described it as a GT4. The red "GT5" on the cover of Jan Norbye's book is described on page 72 of that book as a GT4. That Pantera in Spain could have very well been the Pantera on the cover of Mr. Norbye's book.

From 1978 to 1980 wide body Panteras came on the scene and evolved from a "wheel, tire, and fender flare" option for the GTS (1978), to a unique model so equipped (1979), and finally to the unique GT5 livery displayed in Turin in 1980.

1978-GTS/4 → 1979-GT4 → 1980-GT5 

The red Pantera, by its existence, proves that the evolution of the livery outpaced the evolution of the name. I don't know if in your mind the first GT5 is the first Pantera called a GT5 by the factory, or if its the first Pantera built with GT5 livery. Either way, I doubt there were many Panteras like the red one. That Pantera's chassis number would have pointed you within a few chassis numbers to the "first" GT5, however you define it.

If there is any car more unique than a GT5 its a GT4, which is also an Embo coach (9000 series) model.

Below is a page from a 1976 Brochure

Another page from the same 1976 brochure. 4 Pantera versions marketed.

Unfortunately no 1977 or 1978 brochures were available to me.

Below is a page from a 1979 brochure; still 4 Pantera versions marketed. The Gruppo 4 has conspicuously been renamed a GT4. It would be natural to assume the GT4 and Gruppo 4 were the same car; after all they used the same picture in this brochure that had been used in earlier brochures.  Except we know for a fact De Tomaso produced for a short time circa 1979 wide body street cars, based on the GTS, which they referred to as GT4s.

So instead of the "Gruppo 4" being renamed, what in reality transpired in the 1979 brochure was the GT4 was "added" to the line-up and the Gruppo 4 was dropped from the line-up. Without 1977 or 1978 brochures its impossible to say exactly when the Gruppo 4 was dropped.

In the small print the GT4 tires are described as Pirelli P7s, not racing tires. This car of course had 285mm front and 345mm rear street tires. The widest street tires ever manufactured. Porsche and Lamborghini were doing the same thing at the same time.

Below are two pages from a 1980 "GTS" brochure.

There's lots of detail information about the GTS.

The other Pantera models receive an "also mentioned".

There are still 4 versions of the Pantera being marketed. The GT5 makes its first appearance, and the GT4 is still there too. The Pantera L has been dropped from the line-up. Unfortunately I don't have a 1981 brochure available to me. I'd bet mention of the GT4 was dropped in 1981.

Below is a better view of the 1980 brochure, you can read the blurb about the tires a little better. Not a lot better, just a little better.

By the way, can anyone explain to me what's the meaning of the word pointed out by the red arrows?

Finally below are two pages from a 1985 brochure, the next brochure available to me. By 1985 only 1 Pantera model is really advertised; the GT5-S. The GT5 and GTS are pictured, but there's no information provided about them, no specs. Its as though De Tomaso was showing pictures of the "out going" models. There's no mention, not even a picture, of a Group 3 model.

I just came across another GTS in the GT5 production run:

#9309 - 1984 Pantera GTS to GT5 conversion - Lebanon, New Jersey, USA

This means the total possible production of the GT5 is now down to 197.

George + Peter,

Fabulous work from you guys on the 9000 series model totals!

To answer only one question...

I believe the Red GT5 you mention is found in the (ProvaMo) registry...

I used "Search by Country" -> Spain

and found photos stored under Unknown399 (motor 7242).

The displayed foot box VIN plate was not cleaned enough to be fully readable,

but I can make out the year/month code as "ZL".  Would you agree ?

Then the registry has two cars with "ZL".  There may be more...

They are numbered 9184 (motor number 7222) and 9186 (motor 7224).

The motor numbers are rather close to the subject car, Unknown399.

I believe this unknown car VIN is in the area of these other two ZL dated cars.

Chuck

The white Pantera in Turin from 1980 is demonstrably # 9156. The Car still exists today and was converted to Group4 and painted in black by Gustav Hoecker Landau Germany on behalf of a customer in ca. 1985. Car is today 2nd hand. Kind regards

Hi,

I have chassis #9385, it is located in Omaha, Nebr. Am I correct that this would be the 10th car built?

I have 9421 FYI  Red!