I spent all day yesterday removing the plugs, and prepping the car so when my professional mechanic friend came to help me with the distributor install and alignment, we could first crank the car over with no compression and get some oil flowing before tackling getting the distributor aligned, and all the rest that needed to be done to get the thing back running.
Well, the moment I hit the key to turn the motor over, I hear a "tink" my friend yelled HO! STOP! The dizzy aint spinning.
SO, what I have here now is my life savings wrapped up in a big chunk of metal shaped like a Pantera, with something jammed in the oil pump that is shearing the distributor drive gear pins.
My friend let me use his lift to change the oil, the car fired probably 3 or 4 cylinders before the pin snapped, never started, and it's turned into this big clusterf*ck that's tied up my friend's lift for a week or I don't even know how long, I'm getting the car towed home today, and then I don't know what I'm going to do.
I spent all my money on the car, can't pay a mechanic to ream me up the a$$, so I'm just going to get the car back into my garage and figure out what to do from there.
I feel like crying, but I'm too pissed off.
How should I drive my engine you ask. Simple, can you afford a rebuild, then go for it. If not, nurse it
Sure that a 650 hp motor is uncommon. I would not let it run 10 min at idle ... Why ? Just start it, drive gently for a few minutes, (under 2500rpm) and both the engine and gearbox will warm up 
...
That´s what I'm doing with my 43 years old 2.7l Porsche engine, and hope to do soon with the gr4 Pantera !
Philippe
...That´s what I'm doing with my 43 years old 2.7l Porsche engine, and hope to do soon with the gr4 Pantera !
Philippe
quote:I feel like crying, but I'm too pissed off.
Yes, ownership can be hard. And I realize my comment didn't help you along. So let's try something else. Can you turn the oilp pump counter clockwise by hand? Slowly should be easy. I have a tool that will reach all the way down and won't come apart. If you use sockets and extensions, make sure you don't drop anything.
If the pin snapped again, I'd say either (or a combination):
-Too thick oil
-Hi volume pump
-Dirt clogging up pump
-Dist axle or dist gear has sharp edges that quickly cuts new shear pin
-Dist gear and cam gear doesn't match well
Hope this helps...
This all happened after I had changed my oil.
Roger ran 20-50 and told me to run that weight oil. I put Joe Gibbs "Hotrod" 15-50 into the engine.
I moved the motor in both directions by hand when installing and taking out the distributor.
At this point though, the motor's been cranked forwards by the starter, and whatever is jamming the oil pump should be solidly still stuck in place, so I don't want to try turning the pump and have it let go of what's jamming it up.
I want to find out what jammed this pump up. I'm hoping it's a piece of gasket, or mabe broken oil pickup screen, something I can nail down so I don't have to worry about more of this sh*t going around through my motor.
I was told there were no umbrella seals (something I read can come apart and get stuck in the oil pump).
I know Roger drove the sh#t out of this car, and the motor ran great, so hopefully it's a one-time occurrance.
If it happens a third time, after all this, then the motor and trans have to come out, and I'll have to tear everything apart and rebuild the engine, or sell the car, or something.
This is NOT how this was all supposed to go. I wanted to buy a fun classic car as a hobby and partly as an investment. Full engine (and gearbox, while it's all out of the car)rebuild is not something i have the time or money for.
I spent all my money on the car!
Roger ran 20-50 and told me to run that weight oil. I put Joe Gibbs "Hotrod" 15-50 into the engine.
I moved the motor in both directions by hand when installing and taking out the distributor.
At this point though, the motor's been cranked forwards by the starter, and whatever is jamming the oil pump should be solidly still stuck in place, so I don't want to try turning the pump and have it let go of what's jamming it up.
I want to find out what jammed this pump up. I'm hoping it's a piece of gasket, or mabe broken oil pickup screen, something I can nail down so I don't have to worry about more of this sh*t going around through my motor.
I was told there were no umbrella seals (something I read can come apart and get stuck in the oil pump).
I know Roger drove the sh#t out of this car, and the motor ran great, so hopefully it's a one-time occurrance.
If it happens a third time, after all this, then the motor and trans have to come out, and I'll have to tear everything apart and rebuild the engine, or sell the car, or something.
This is NOT how this was all supposed to go. I wanted to buy a fun classic car as a hobby and partly as an investment. Full engine (and gearbox, while it's all out of the car)rebuild is not something i have the time or money for.
I spent all my money on the car!
quote:Originally posted by No Quarter:quote:I feel like crying, but I'm too pissed off.
Yes, ownership can be hard. And I realize my comment didn't help you along. So let's try something else. Can you turn the oilp pump counter clockwise by hand? Slowly should be easy. I have a tool that will reach all the way down and won't come apart. If you use sockets and extensions, make sure you don't drop anything.
If the pin snapped again, I'd say either (or a combination):
-Too thick oil
-Hi volume pump
-Dirt clogging up pump
-Dist axle or dist gear has sharp edges that quickly cuts new shear pin
-Dist gear and cam gear doesn't match well
Hope this helps...
I'm sure most Pantera owners along with myself can feel your pain. Most of us have made decisions concerning our cars we later wished we had not made. While I believe you have purchased a good platform, sometimes it's better to know personally what you are riding on because it makes the ride better. I vote to remove engine and trans (relatively easy in a Pantera) and correct your problem. On the upside I believe you will find the Pantera community an excellent source for assist and support.
If you have a removable cross member, drop the oil pan and take out the oil pump and check it for debris. You will be out some time and the cost of a pan gasket set. New pumps are not too expensive.
Mark
Mark
Mike, EH's comments are pertinate. You own a powerful 43-year-old, heavily modified performance sportscar; things do & will go wrong. When the pump comes out, check the internal bore and gearotors for deep scratches that will reduce oil pressure. As he said, new Melling pumps are cheap; I suggest a std pump. The whole exercise should take a Saturday afternoon. Then take the thing out and beat on it! Better you ferret out weak spots now than 60 miles out in the desert.
Tomorrow I have a guy coming over to help me drop the pan and remove the oil pump. I have a stock Melling oil pump on order, should be in wed or thursday.
Oil pressures were high while I had the car. 80lbs cold idle, 30-40 hot idle. Going down the road at 2000-2500 pressure was around 70-80.
Roger said the oil pump was stock, not high volume or pressure.
My hopes are it's just a fluke, a piece of gasket, or something, and no signs of anything worse are found.
He ran 20-50, so I put 15-50 Joe Gibbs "hotrod" oil (extra zinc and ZDDP) oil in. it shouldn't be any thicker than what was in there and shouldn't cause this issue.
The oil pump or shaft is jammed.
Tomorrow the next chapter of the story will be told.
I appreciate all the comments and help from everyone here on the forum.
Oil pressures were high while I had the car. 80lbs cold idle, 30-40 hot idle. Going down the road at 2000-2500 pressure was around 70-80.
Roger said the oil pump was stock, not high volume or pressure.
My hopes are it's just a fluke, a piece of gasket, or something, and no signs of anything worse are found.
He ran 20-50, so I put 15-50 Joe Gibbs "hotrod" oil (extra zinc and ZDDP) oil in. it shouldn't be any thicker than what was in there and shouldn't cause this issue.
The oil pump or shaft is jammed.
Tomorrow the next chapter of the story will be told.
I appreciate all the comments and help from everyone here on the forum.
quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
Tomorrow I have a guy coming over to help me drop the pan and remove the oil pump. I have a stock Melling oil pump on order, should be in wed or thursday.
Oil pressures were high while I had the car. 80lbs cold idle, 30-40 hot idle. Going down the road at 2000-2500 pressure was around 70-80.
Roger said the oil pump was stock, not high volume or pressure.
My hopes are it's just a fluke, a piece of gasket, or something, and no signs of anything worse are found.
He ran 20-50, so I put 15-50 Joe Gibbs "hotrod" oil (extra zinc and ZDDP) oil in. it shouldn't be any thicker than what was in there and shouldn't cause this issue.
The oil pump or shaft is jammed.
Tomorrow the next chapter of the story will be told.
I appreciate all the comments and help from everyone here on the forum.
When you put everything back together do not use any cork gaskets. Use silicone for that.
The silicone would remain flexable if a drip got away somewhere. It tends not to though from the installation.
Where it can get into the oil pan is when it gets scrapped loose.
The cork just dries out and pieces of it can break off. when it dries it gets hard.
You might want to consider epoxying screens over the oil drain back holes in the heads too.
The racers do it all the time and it has saved many an engine from certain destruction.
I had a set of Crane push rods self destruct.
Where the tips are spot welded on, the tubing crumbled and shrapnel pieces of steel went everywhere.
The screens on the heads is a great idea.
Roger said he had adjusted the valves just 3 weeks prior to my buying the car.
He used cork valve cover gaskets, saying it made things easier when it came time to adjust the valves.
He said the box and engine do not leak, but if I find a drop of oil under the car, it's from the cork valve cover gaskets, they weep a little bit and if I did find any drops of oil, that's where they came from.
There WERE a couple drops of oil under the car, and I assumed they came from where he told me they came from.
The underside of the car was relatively clean, looked just about what a car with a weeping valve cover gasket would look. Not bone dry, not dripping wet, not terribly dirty.
Roger said he had adjusted the valves just 3 weeks prior to my buying the car.
He used cork valve cover gaskets, saying it made things easier when it came time to adjust the valves.
He said the box and engine do not leak, but if I find a drop of oil under the car, it's from the cork valve cover gaskets, they weep a little bit and if I did find any drops of oil, that's where they came from.
There WERE a couple drops of oil under the car, and I assumed they came from where he told me they came from.
The underside of the car was relatively clean, looked just about what a car with a weeping valve cover gasket would look. Not bone dry, not dripping wet, not terribly dirty.
I don't see that cork gaskets are easier at all. You need to use some kind of a sealer on them otherwise they will leak.
If you use silicone, it's a better seal.
Sometimes there is interference, even slight with the rocker arms and covers. The cork can space them out just enough to clear.
If you ever see a car with a double layer of cork, that is being used as a spacer for this reason.
When you put the oil pan back on do not use cork either. Best to silicone everything in place.
When you take the oil pump out I would not be shocked if it was the cork that fouled it up. Disappointed yes, not shocked.
As I said, they harden, crack and sometimes crumble and they can get into the pan and find there way into the pump.
So can the silicone but it is usually compressible enough that it won't jamb the gears but I know on my friends Pro Stock Camaro they ALWAYS dropped the pan and there always seemed to be silicone somewhere in the oiling system.
The cork isn't going to compress.
His car was dry sump and the lines were -12 and -16. They use screens everywhere including inside of the oil tank.
If you use silicone, it's a better seal.
Sometimes there is interference, even slight with the rocker arms and covers. The cork can space them out just enough to clear.
If you ever see a car with a double layer of cork, that is being used as a spacer for this reason.
When you put the oil pan back on do not use cork either. Best to silicone everything in place.
When you take the oil pump out I would not be shocked if it was the cork that fouled it up. Disappointed yes, not shocked.
As I said, they harden, crack and sometimes crumble and they can get into the pan and find there way into the pump.
So can the silicone but it is usually compressible enough that it won't jamb the gears but I know on my friends Pro Stock Camaro they ALWAYS dropped the pan and there always seemed to be silicone somewhere in the oiling system.
The cork isn't going to compress.
His car was dry sump and the lines were -12 and -16. They use screens everywhere including inside of the oil tank.
If I remember correctly, i did see 2 cork gaskets doubled up under the valve covers.
The engine has a high lift cam, with Jesel rockers (apparently BIG $$$) and ran beautifully, so I hope that's what it is, just a piece of cork, I'll change to a different style VC gasket, the motor goes back together, and we all live happily ever after, just like in the movie.
The engine has a high lift cam, with Jesel rockers (apparently BIG $$$) and ran beautifully, so I hope that's what it is, just a piece of cork, I'll change to a different style VC gasket, the motor goes back together, and we all live happily ever after, just like in the movie.
quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
If I remember correctly, i did see 2 cork gaskets doubled up under the valve covers.
The engine has a high lift cam, with Jesel rockers (apparently BIG $$$) and ran beautifully, so I hope that's what it is, just a piece of cork, I'll change to a different style VC gasket, the motor goes back together, and we all live happily ever after, just like in the movie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPGobe_Irvw
Maybe it's you?
Well,
My mobile mechanic "prince" is F**king late. I'm waiting on him to come give my car that kiss that wakes it up, and then all the dwarfs and animals of the forest rejoice.
My mobile mechanic "prince" is F**king late. I'm waiting on him to come give my car that kiss that wakes it up, and then all the dwarfs and animals of the forest rejoice.
quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
Well,
My mobile mechanic "prince" is F**king late. I'm waiting on him to come give my car that kiss that wakes it up, and then all the dwarfs and animals of the forest rejoice.
Princes are like that. I'd look out for the dwarfs. Make sure you have the car locked up and wheel locks on your rims.
Put the cover on the car so the birds don't all crap on it.
As you already found out, Snow White is a little bit of a bitch too?
Hang in there.
Attachments
Images (1)
Tomorrow at 8am I'm having the car towed to a shop to have the oil pan dropped. I can't find anyone to help me do it at home, Craigslist "mobile mechanics" are a joke, and like the rest of the world it seems, cannot even show up on time for an appointment.
As far as I can tell, I'm one of 3 people in this world that will show up when I say I'll be there, or call if I'm more than 5 minutes late.
Anyways, the pan is coming off tomorrow, the story will be told.
I either have some random piece of crap stuck in the pump, or some much worse is going on.
I'll know tomorrow.
I'm on the verge of a breakdown, I saved for years, spent my life savings on this car, only to have it run a for about an hour, and now I'm looking at who knows how much to fix the car.
I burned up a friendship by having my car stuck on his lift, where he had to take his own car to a shop to work on it because my car was tying up his lift. A simple oil change turned into what? I don't know, 8, 10 days on his lift, he's pissed, I'll never be able to use his lift again. This is starting to suck really really bad.
Tomoorow, I just hope I don't find bits of rocker pins, or something that requires the motor be removed and rebuilt.
The car will sit for a long time if that's the case, as I already overspent what I had on the car itself.
We'll know tomorrow.
As far as I can tell, I'm one of 3 people in this world that will show up when I say I'll be there, or call if I'm more than 5 minutes late.
Anyways, the pan is coming off tomorrow, the story will be told.
I either have some random piece of crap stuck in the pump, or some much worse is going on.
I'll know tomorrow.
I'm on the verge of a breakdown, I saved for years, spent my life savings on this car, only to have it run a for about an hour, and now I'm looking at who knows how much to fix the car.
I burned up a friendship by having my car stuck on his lift, where he had to take his own car to a shop to work on it because my car was tying up his lift. A simple oil change turned into what? I don't know, 8, 10 days on his lift, he's pissed, I'll never be able to use his lift again. This is starting to suck really really bad.
Tomoorow, I just hope I don't find bits of rocker pins, or something that requires the motor be removed and rebuilt.
The car will sit for a long time if that's the case, as I already overspent what I had on the car itself.
We'll know tomorrow.
Change of plan. Mobile mechanic is coming and we're going to pull the pan and pump in my garage.