Lifter Bore Clearance

I believe there are "oil control" schemes (methods), like installing the oil restrictors in the cam bearing channels and passages to the lifter galleries, but the purpose of these restrictors is primarily to keep oil pressure at the mains.

If you have excessive lifter bore clearance, I can't think of an approach that will solve that without bushing them....

Maybe somebody else has a suggestion?

Rocky

If you are looking to reduce the clearances to reduce the amount of oil pumped to the lifters, with solid lifters, yes. The oil passage is reduced in the lifter itself. With hydraulic lifters, no.

You must maintain a minimum wall to lifter clearance or else it will seize in it's bore.

I'm not sure if the hydraulic lifters will still operate properly if you sleeve the bores?

You are reducing the quantity of oil to them and it might not be enough to operated them properly or fill them completely?

On the other hand, you only do this modification to rev the engine over 7,000 rpm and if you were going to do that, then you wouldn't use hydraulic lifters anyway.

I can't think of any other reason to worry about the lifter bore clearances.

Tobey, be aware that not all lifters are the exact same OD (0.875" for pushrod Fords). If you're inquiring due to your bores (or lifters) being worn a bit, some aftermarket lifters (both roller and flat-tappet, hydraulic and solid) are as much as 0.003 undersized out-of-the-box while a few are exactly 0.875". This may come from foreign mfgrs converting to inches from metric. Hylift-Johnson makes good lifters the correct size, in the U.S.A.

If you're simply hot-rodding an engine, there are advantages to a larger OD lifter of any design for a given cam, which is why some racers use Chrysler lifters (stock is 0.904") in Chevys (0.842") & Fords (0.875"). Overboring lifters is routinely done in big race shops and can also correct stock lifter bore mistakes done during mfgr of a block. But it takes good ($$$) fixtures and cannot be done in a typical garage with hand tools. Big lifters also need a cam ground to accommodate them; NOT a drop-in fix for worn bores in a stock block.

You can contact Johnson lifters and inquire about obtaining over-size tappets.

I recommend however installing the bushings using Wydendorf's kit, use 0.060" orifices, and be done with it. You don't need a machine shop or expensive "fixtures". What you'll need is a big drill (from the rental shop); patience; lots of cutting oil; a buddy to apply the oil and steady the block while you wrestle with the drill; lots of your favorite beverage; and ear plugs for you & your buddy. I recommend making it a two day job, 8 the first day and the remaining 8 the second day. Drill all the bores, clean out the chips, before you press in the bushings.

Hydraulic tappet, solid tappet, it won't matter. You'll not only fix the lubrication system, you'll hot-rod it. Your crank bearings will be appreciative. It makes a huge improvement and is definitely worthwhile. The idea that its only needed above 7000 rpm is ... well ... inaccurate. Afterwards sell the tools to somebody else & recoup part of your money.

I have 2 blocks. I might as well do both at the same time. I want to be able to go over 7,000 rpms occasionally by mistake and not hurt anything. I am a little nervous about doing it myself.

I would like to get about 550 Hp out of my motor. It is a .30 over, Boss motor and has been balanced to death. While still using the domed pistons. Can I get there without Fly cutting the pistons and with what cam specs?

George makes it sound easy. It's kinda messy and the block should be out of the car to do it. You need to make sure all of the debris is out of there.

I had to take out the domed pistons. With the quench heads, the thing measured out at 11.85:1.

The detonation on pump gas was so bad the engine would shut off.

The domes sucked with the open chamber heads.

The best combination is either the flat top pistons with the iron quench heads, or the dished pistons with the smaller chambered (59cc) aftermarket heads.

You can mill them down from 63cc's quite a bit. You will wind up around 9.8:1 which is fine for pump gas.

With 5.7 + .030 you still will get 500 hp easy.

Why go more? You will toast the clutch and risk the ZF internals.

As I recall, those domed TRW pistons need to be fly cut for anything over .550" lift. Go over 600 and you will feel the difference. It's substantial.

The Cleveland won't even wake up til you get to .600.

Given the choice between the D0AE Boss 4 bolt block and the D2AE-CA 4 bolt, use the later. The real Boss block is just a Ford conversion of the original 2v block to 4 bolt caps.

The D2AE-CA 4 bolt block WAS run in Pro Stock by Gapp & Rousch, Glidden, Nicholson and others and the reputation of it cracking is because of the 10,000 rpm power shifts.

There IS value to the 4 bolt caps. The 4 bolts keep the caps from "walking" that the 2 bolts can't. They aren't there for strengthening the caps.

For the street what you want to do, it's fine. Probably good to 8,000 to 8,200 rpm as long as it isn't constantly run up there and you NEED to run the thick Boss/HO balancer with it. It makes a big difference in longevity and even idle quality of the engine.

Here's a better view of it. You might want to notice how thick this thing is? Ford made it for a reason. This is what you need to run the Cleveland hard.

The difference in just the idle quality between the same engine with this balancer and the 4v balancer is incredible.

It idles like you took 10 degrees out of the duration.

quote:

George makes it sound easy. It's kinda messy and the block should be out of the car to do it. You need to make sure all of the debris is out of there.

No offense intended but it was pretty easy. I did it myself in my garage with not help. Yes I was dealing with a bare block on an engine stand. The key here is to read and follow instructions that Denny sends with the tools.

quote:

Originally posted by ItalFord:

quote:

George makes it sound easy. It's kinda messy and the block should be out of the car to do it. You need to make sure all of the debris is out of there.

No offense intended but it was pretty easy. I did it myself in my garage with not help. Yes I was dealing with a bare block on an engine stand. The key here is to read and follow instructions that Denny sends with the tools.

Read? I gotta' read? S..t!

Yes Doug unfortunately the cave man thing works less and less these days.

I'm good at painting on cave walls. Do the instructions have a lot of pictures?

I blocks are both D2AE-CA's. The stock block probably needs a little boring, The Boss spec only needs the glaze broken. The Rotating assembly in the Boss motor has been balanced. The other is stock.

quote:

Originally posted by captaintobeys:
I blocks are both D2AE-CA's. The stock block probably needs a little boring, The Boss spec only needs the glaze broken. The Rotating assembly in the Boss motor has been balanced. The other is stock.

Boss 351's were only available on the assembly line. They were never serviced as parts with the same components.
The D2AE-CA is the 351-cj block. Not the original Boss block. It is the "service" part for it yes, but that doesn't make it a Boss part. The Boss balancer, D1ZZ casting number is only on the original complete Boss engine assembly. It was serviced over the counter with the HO blancer which is D2ZX.

That's why when you find the D1ZX balancer for sale separately they are so expensive. They could only have come from an original 71 Boss 351 car.

The original Boss 351 block is a D0AE casting number, not the D2AE.

Smile. The D2AE is the better of the two blocks and you have two of them.

You only need the original casting numbers if you are restoring a '71 Boss 351 Mustang. There were probably never any Boss 351 engines left over from the original build. They just built the cars until they ran out of the engines, then no more.

Ford Service Parts never necessarily gave you the original parts in service. They gave you the EQUIVALENT of them. That definitely is not the same thing.

Thats why I keep saying Boss Spec. The Domed piston, different rockers( I think). The heads are D1AE-GA? heads, D2ZX dampner.

Is there a difference in cranks?

quote:

Originally posted by captaintobeys:
Thats why I keep saying Boss Spec. The Domed piston, different rockers( I think). The heads are D1AE-GA? heads, D2ZX dampner.

Is there a difference in cranks?

They are harder. They show a dimple on one of the counterweights were they where Brill hardness tested.
The connecting rods are also cast with a D1ZX, the rocker arms are hardened as are the push rods.
I don't remember what the casting number was on the heads but I do remember being told in no uncertain terms that the original Boss heads had a D1ZZ or D1ZX casting number in them and that the heads I was selling, which were Ford Service part Boss 351 heads were heads that "someone" took the regular 4v heads and modified to be pretend Boss heads. Yes. Ford.
Change the cam in that engine to around a .600 lift with around 248@.050 and around 72-75 degrees overlap and you are pumping right around 500hp.
A lot of people are not going to like the idle on it but if you want 500hp with 5.7 liters that's what you need to do, and you need much better headers than even the GTS headers.
Other than that and high port heads that is the hottest you will get in a Cleveland.
It's a very nice engine in my opinion but my opinion only counts with me. Even then, sometimes not?

quote:

captaintobeys: Is there a difference in cranks?

quote:

PanteraDoug: They are harder. They show a dimple on one of the counterweights were they where Brill hardness tested.

not harder per se but merely Tested For hardness. there are no special metallurgy cranks, they're all of the same standard production quality.... just that some got tested & some didn't

I've had three 4v cranks and they all had the test mark on them.
The Boss crank had a part number stamped into the counter weight.
Storm Cranks in Mt.Vernon did 10/10 on all of them. Said they were all the same as far as he could tell.

He was shocked by the size of the Boss/HO balancer. He had never seen one of them before. He thought the 4v was the performance balancer until he saw it.

He tried to talk me out of it. Telling me it was no good for the assembly because of all the mass on the snout of the crank.

I've had only two of those. VERY hard to come by.

The ORIGINAL Boss heads that I had were marked D1ZX, cast into the underside of the heads.
Only set I've ever seen like that.

People say I'm wrong. I had a pair. Don't know what the story is from Ford on them other than they used up the initial parts run on build Boss 351 engines, then installed all of them in the Boss Mustangs and all service part casting numbers were different.

Connecting rods I think were D1ZX castings/forgings also.
They look the same as the 4v rods except for the rod bolts which were unique to the Boss as well.

I'm not preaching here. Just relating what I had seen and what was in my possession at one time. (going as far back as the Early '70s with the 351C). Still not done with it yet because of the Pantera.

If I had thought back then any of this would have been significant at all, I would have documented it with photographs. I was too busy ducking criticism from elders like my father who thought everything I did was BS and I should be married (to share the misery I suppose) and working my ass off.

There was also this issue that effected single draft age men in the US called the Viet Nam War.

The army was going nuts trying to find enough "meat" to stockpile their boots on the ground efforts in "South East Asia". Draft boards couldn't fill the quotas they were given.

I mention that simply because unless you experienced that sociological event yourself, you can not imagine how it changed the smallest things that you did in everyday life as a result. In relationship to the 351c, others my age are involved with it similarly, for similar reasons as well.

I was too young to realize the significance of Eisenhower's departure speech, "beware the military/industrial complex", when he said it.

When I turned 18, I found out exactly what that meant and the brilliance of the statement.

The Boss 351 was somehow all caught up in this mess along with the "fuel shortage", and EPA requirements.

Detomaso got stuck trying to race an undeveloped engine in an expensive racing category and Ford bailed out on two fronts 1) financing racing the Pantera 2) race developing the 351. That development got done by various NASCAR and drag racers, post Pantera factory racing, unfortunately.

The entire mess, is as they say, just history now.

Yes Capt. A Boss "spec" engine with a couple of little "upgrades" is a very good way to keep a Pantera "vintage era" correct for sure.