What do you thing of a LT-4 conversion in a GT5-S 650/650 supercharged motor ???
Thanks, Wayne
#9437
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
I think a Chevrolet engine in a Ford product is sacrilege.
A Ford crate motor can provide more than enough HP, if you stick with a Cleveland or Windsor platform it doesn't involve new-territory problem-solving and fabrication, and will raise far fewer eyebrows than a Chevy engine.
That said, on as rare a beast as a GT5S (only valid if yours is genuine and not a clone) I would advise against ANY engine swap.
Larry
A Ford crate motor can provide more than enough HP, if you stick with a Cleveland or Windsor platform it doesn't involve new-territory problem-solving and fabrication, and will raise far fewer eyebrows than a Chevy engine.
That said, on as rare a beast as a GT5S (only valid if yours is genuine and not a clone) I would advise against ANY engine swap.
Larry
quote:I think a Chevrolet engine in a Ford product is sacrilege.
blah...blah...blah...
quote:Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:
I think a Chevrolet engine in a Ford product is sacrilege.
A Ford crate motor can provide more than enough HP, if you stick with a Cleveland or Windsor platform it doesn't involve new-territory problem-solving and fabrication, and will raise far fewer eyebrows than a Chevy engine.
That said, on as rare a beast as a GT5S (only valid if yours is genuine and not a clone) I would advise against ANY engine swap.
Larry
Absoutly agree Larry. The Jag E Types character and value was ruined when
they had Chev engines installed. I expect the same for Panteras.
Heard it all before from the same people.
The value of my car if through the roof because it is exactly how I like it and it is never going to be for sale. A win win for me!!!!!!
The value of my car if through the roof because it is exactly how I like it and it is never going to be for sale. A win win for me!!!!!!
Gee dude, chill will ya? 
Wayne asked for our opinions. I gave him mine.
You've made two posts in this thread. The first post contributed nothing to the thread.
By now we all know you love the Chevy engine you put in your Pantera. How about just sharing with Wayne the advantages you think might be applicable to him and his situation?
Larry
Wayne asked for our opinions. I gave him mine.
You've made two posts in this thread. The first post contributed nothing to the thread.
By now we all know you love the Chevy engine you put in your Pantera. How about just sharing with Wayne the advantages you think might be applicable to him and his situation?
Larry
quote:Originally posted by ZR1 Pantera:
Heard it all before from the same people.
The value of my car if through the roof because it is exactly how I like it and it is never going to be for sale. A win win for me!!!!!!
Have you done any videos of your Pantera on the Quarter or around a track? Would be great to see the LS in action.
quote:Gee dude, chill will ya?
Couldn't get any more Chill Larry.
And yes, we all know your opinion on Ford or Chevy! Just like most people know mine. But if you don't, here it is again.
Yes, I like the LS motors because of the packaging and power. Not because it is a Chevy. If Ford had a motor that had the same packaging and fit as well as the LS motor, I would go with it. I don't limit myself to one Marque like a lot of people. I like all kinds of cars. Just so happens that Chevy makes the motor that I feel fits the best in the limited space of a Pantera. SO if Wayne want to go with an LT4, it would be an awesome car!!!!! My car put out 700 reliable horsepower and the LT4 is even better than the LS9 I used.
Wayne should do whatever makes him happy for his car. Regardless of yours or my opinion!
How is that. Did I contribute to your satisfaction!
quote:Have you done any videos of your Pantera on the Quarter or around a track? Would be great to see the LS in action.
I haven't yet but I did do a promotional video of our cable shifter that has a nice sound track of the supercharger sound. I don't want to hijack this thread so I will repost the video link in another topic!
I posted the video link that was talked about above in our LS9 project post. If you are interested, head over there to watch the video.
As for the thread at hand, this is my take on it....
We get the question a lot on why we chose the LS9 engine and I just wanted to give a quick bullet point list on why we chose the LS series over anything else:
This is all information that we have talked about in our threads before but I feel like it was necessary to reiterate the information as more people are interested in swapping an LS/LT motor into their car.
The way we look at it is it's our car and we are going to make it how we want it no matter who likes it or not. Make your car the way YOU want it. Evaluate your options and weigh the pros and cons and then make a decision. We are in no way married to the idea of the Chevy crate motors but until another company makes a comparable engine with the value-to-power-to-packaging value that Chevy does, it will remain as one of the best options.
As for the thread at hand, this is my take on it....
We get the question a lot on why we chose the LS9 engine and I just wanted to give a quick bullet point list on why we chose the LS series over anything else:
- Our first thought was to build a beefy Cleveland motor but we knew that it would not be able to make as much power as reliably as a crate motor and reliability was one of our top 3 concerns. So that meant we needed to start looking at crate motors.
- The LS series is an extremely compact series of engines. Further, the new LT series of Chevy crate motors is even more compact than the LS series. This was the main reason why we chose the Chevy. It offers the best packaging of any crate motor that was on the market at the time. We did consider going with the very common 5.0 Coyote crate motor but we didn't because it is a lot bigger of an engine (wider/bulkier/heavier).
- The LS series also offered the best value based on the power to cost ratio. When comparing engines, the LS offered the most power for the price. When looking at the Coyote motor, it was almost double the cost of the LS3 that we originally installed in the car and offered less horsepower and much less torque.
- When we got tired of the LS3 power, we chose the LS9 because...... well just because it would be cool... lol. It was a logical extension from our original LS3 installation. The LS9 has a similar block design as the LS3 which allowed the engine to fit extremely well, even with the supercharger installed. Now that the LT4 is out, that engine offers even more power in a more compact package than the LS9 so it is a great choice to swap into the Pantera.
This is all information that we have talked about in our threads before but I feel like it was necessary to reiterate the information as more people are interested in swapping an LS/LT motor into their car.
The way we look at it is it's our car and we are going to make it how we want it no matter who likes it or not. Make your car the way YOU want it. Evaluate your options and weigh the pros and cons and then make a decision. We are in no way married to the idea of the Chevy crate motors but until another company makes a comparable engine with the value-to-power-to-packaging value that Chevy does, it will remain as one of the best options.
I think LS/LT engines may well have been on DeTomaso's shopping list had they been available at the time (IMHO) (I have 3 LS cars (LS1, L98, LS3), 2 Fords (302W / 351C) and 1 chev (327).
(I have 3 LS cars (LS1, L98, LS3), 2 Fords (302W / 351C) and 1 chev (327).
All these conversions are interesting... just keep the conversation going on. Happy to read about choises people have made with their De Tomasos.
What about all of you who have non original engines ie... dart blocks, aluminum and so on
Do you really think a modern powerplant will devalue our cars???
Remember, the clevelend is no more than a truck motor!!!!! and very expensive to rebuild to modern standard hp
coments???
Wayne
Do you really think a modern powerplant will devalue our cars???
Remember, the clevelend is no more than a truck motor!!!!! and very expensive to rebuild to modern standard hp
coments???
Wayne
quote:Originally posted by wpl:
What about all of you who have non original engines ie... dart blocks, aluminum and so on
Do you really think a modern powerplant will devalue our cars???
Remember, the clevelend is no more than a truck motor!!!!! and very expensive to rebuild to modern standard hp
coments???
Wayne
I think the key is to keep it as a simple bolt in and not have to cut up the sheet metal. Retro would seem to be good as in a Gp3 or 4 car.
Truck engine? You sound like Ferrari after he got beat at Lemans by the MarkII 427 GT40's. He was talking suicidally when he called the 427 "disgraced by being beaten by an irrigation motor".
It's all perspective and attitude.
My concern would be the ability of the chassis, gearbox, and cooling system to handle the level of power you're quoting.
I don't think a Chevy crate engine is any worse than the other modifications people make; such as Campy clone wheels, or a big block Ford V8. Modification is modification. I know it will impact the value of your car, if that's no problem for you, who's to criticize what you choose to do with your car? I say let the car fulfill your dream or vision.
I like Doug's advice to install an alternative engine that shall require no modification in the engine compartment to install it, that way the car can be put back to "original" at some point in the future by you or a future owner (if you save the original engine and parts).
I don't think a Chevy crate engine is any worse than the other modifications people make; such as Campy clone wheels, or a big block Ford V8. Modification is modification. I know it will impact the value of your car, if that's no problem for you, who's to criticize what you choose to do with your car? I say let the car fulfill your dream or vision.
I like Doug's advice to install an alternative engine that shall require no modification in the engine compartment to install it, that way the car can be put back to "original" at some point in the future by you or a future owner (if you save the original engine and parts).
The car in question, a 1987 GT5-S will have an LT4 supercharged engine installed at MalinMotors.
There really will not be anything changed in the engine bay that will alter the car.
Anyone that wanted to put back the original Cleveland motor would have no problem doing it.
Building a Cleveland motor to the power level and sophistication of the LT4 would not be possible. And cost if you could, would be far more money.
As the car gets to the point of installation of the engine and components, pictures will be on my web site.
www.malinmotors.com
Thanks, James
There really will not be anything changed in the engine bay that will alter the car.
Anyone that wanted to put back the original Cleveland motor would have no problem doing it.
Building a Cleveland motor to the power level and sophistication of the LT4 would not be possible. And cost if you could, would be far more money.
As the car gets to the point of installation of the engine and components, pictures will be on my web site.
www.malinmotors.com
Thanks, James
Chevy LT4 crate engine pricing
P/N 19332621 (wet sump lubrication) MSRP $15,625
P/N 19332702 (dry sump lubrication) MSRP $16,250
Both the LT4 and 351C are push rod (OHV) V8 engines with heavy "cross-plane" cranks. The only "truck" a 351C was ever installed in was a Ranchero. It would be most accurate to say the 351C was designed for NASCAR and endurance racing. The Cleveland heads were the fore runners of all modern OHV racing cylinder heads. There may be 46 year old Cleveland technology in the LT4 heads.
Here' my counter-perspective regarding the 351C:
Tim Meyer is getting ready to put the new "Track Boss" engine block into production. There's a foundation for a Cleveland engine that can survive that type of power. Scott Cook's heads will also support that type of power, naturally aspirated! You'd just need a nicely designed solid roller cam.
In terms of a blower installation, its been done with the Cleveland, no doubt its tight fitting a blower drive in the limited space. Take a 500 BHP naturally aspirated engine (this is a mild state of tune), blow 1/2 atmosphere into it, it will make 750 BHP, then deduct the amount of power consumed by the blower that should net you about 650 BHP.
But, getting away from the complications of a blower, here's a naturally aspirated "Clev-or" using Scott Cook heads.
Aftermarket "Windsor style" iron block
SCM aluminum heads
393cuin.
Hyd Roller Cam 242/245@050" 642" lift
Try-Y Headers, 2-1/2" collectors
Stock TFC Intake (single plane, high rise),
RS 770 Barry Grant Carb.
Basic tune
There is less money invested in this engine than an LT4 crate engine. The dyno results are in the picture at the bottom of this post.
I'm not saying to make do with a carburetor and a distributor ignition like the build I detailed above. I only used that engine build to display what a 351C in a mild state of tune can do with a set of SCM heads. Distributorless ignitions and very nice fuel injection systems (Trick Flow) are available to retro-fit onto the Cleveland, and they aren't that expensive. They would raise the output of that naturally aspirated 600 BHP SCM engine. The only modern technology you can't retro-fit onto a Cleveland are variable valve timing and direct injection.
If you build a stout Cleveland, drop it back into the Pantera chassis, you're done! However, if you purchase an LT4 (for about $16K), you're just getting started! There's a lot of installation details to work out; a custom exhaust and motor mounts for instance. Plus bell housing and clutch. At least $5K more expenditure, and I'm probably being very conservative. So in this perspective the advantage belongs to the Cleveland.
The SCM heads are designed by Darin Morgan, one of the world's leading professional induction system designers. A Cleveland engine built with those heads is not giving up any advantage to an LT4. Tim Meyer's new block, and the SCM heads are cast to externally look like the factory parts. Paint them blue and nobody would know they aren't the original parts. Some folks would consider that an advantage too. The aluminum version of Tim's new block is being cast with a new proprietary aluminum alloy, Alcoa C3A1. The manufacturer claims it has 10% better tensile strength and elongation characteristics than C355-T6, which is the premium material of other block manufactures. The Track boss block shall therefore be the strongest aluminum engine block in the industry. Using that block would give the 351C yet another advantage, until other manufacturers "catch-up".
So an aftermarket 351C can have Darin Morgan and Alcoa C3A1 behind it. What's the bow tie LS/LT engines got to match that?
Addressing Wayne, I'm cool with whatever direction you take. The Chevy crate engine is a viable choice. Please do not interpret my counter-perspective regarding the 351 Cleveland as criticism, its not meant to be criticism. I do have personal "fears" regarding a high output engine lacking traction control in combination with street tires ... but I've already preached about that recently. Be safe, and above all, enjoy your Pantera.
P/N 19332621 (wet sump lubrication) MSRP $15,625
P/N 19332702 (dry sump lubrication) MSRP $16,250
Both the LT4 and 351C are push rod (OHV) V8 engines with heavy "cross-plane" cranks. The only "truck" a 351C was ever installed in was a Ranchero. It would be most accurate to say the 351C was designed for NASCAR and endurance racing. The Cleveland heads were the fore runners of all modern OHV racing cylinder heads. There may be 46 year old Cleveland technology in the LT4 heads.
Here' my counter-perspective regarding the 351C:
Tim Meyer is getting ready to put the new "Track Boss" engine block into production. There's a foundation for a Cleveland engine that can survive that type of power. Scott Cook's heads will also support that type of power, naturally aspirated! You'd just need a nicely designed solid roller cam.
In terms of a blower installation, its been done with the Cleveland, no doubt its tight fitting a blower drive in the limited space. Take a 500 BHP naturally aspirated engine (this is a mild state of tune), blow 1/2 atmosphere into it, it will make 750 BHP, then deduct the amount of power consumed by the blower that should net you about 650 BHP.
But, getting away from the complications of a blower, here's a naturally aspirated "Clev-or" using Scott Cook heads.
Aftermarket "Windsor style" iron block
SCM aluminum heads
393cuin.
Hyd Roller Cam 242/245@050" 642" lift
Try-Y Headers, 2-1/2" collectors
Stock TFC Intake (single plane, high rise),
RS 770 Barry Grant Carb.
Basic tune
There is less money invested in this engine than an LT4 crate engine. The dyno results are in the picture at the bottom of this post.
I'm not saying to make do with a carburetor and a distributor ignition like the build I detailed above. I only used that engine build to display what a 351C in a mild state of tune can do with a set of SCM heads. Distributorless ignitions and very nice fuel injection systems (Trick Flow) are available to retro-fit onto the Cleveland, and they aren't that expensive. They would raise the output of that naturally aspirated 600 BHP SCM engine. The only modern technology you can't retro-fit onto a Cleveland are variable valve timing and direct injection.
If you build a stout Cleveland, drop it back into the Pantera chassis, you're done! However, if you purchase an LT4 (for about $16K), you're just getting started! There's a lot of installation details to work out; a custom exhaust and motor mounts for instance. Plus bell housing and clutch. At least $5K more expenditure, and I'm probably being very conservative. So in this perspective the advantage belongs to the Cleveland.
The SCM heads are designed by Darin Morgan, one of the world's leading professional induction system designers. A Cleveland engine built with those heads is not giving up any advantage to an LT4. Tim Meyer's new block, and the SCM heads are cast to externally look like the factory parts. Paint them blue and nobody would know they aren't the original parts. Some folks would consider that an advantage too. The aluminum version of Tim's new block is being cast with a new proprietary aluminum alloy, Alcoa C3A1. The manufacturer claims it has 10% better tensile strength and elongation characteristics than C355-T6, which is the premium material of other block manufactures. The Track boss block shall therefore be the strongest aluminum engine block in the industry. Using that block would give the 351C yet another advantage, until other manufacturers "catch-up".
So an aftermarket 351C can have Darin Morgan and Alcoa C3A1 behind it. What's the bow tie LS/LT engines got to match that?
Addressing Wayne, I'm cool with whatever direction you take. The Chevy crate engine is a viable choice. Please do not interpret my counter-perspective regarding the 351 Cleveland as criticism, its not meant to be criticism. I do have personal "fears" regarding a high output engine lacking traction control in combination with street tires ... but I've already preached about that recently. Be safe, and above all, enjoy your Pantera.
Attachments
Images (1)
If I am not mistaken, Ron McCall had a customer bring a 351 Cleveland to him to install into his street/race Pantera. "The white one".
He was saying that the engine was around 800hp (if I remember correctly) and had to be dialed down to 7,000 rpm and about 700 hp.
I've seen and heard this car. It is streetable. If your locality decides for some inexplicable reason to bring back "Trollies", they will hire him to cut the grooves in the pavement for the tracks by just doing burnouts.
I've been around Clevelands a long time, since 1972. If George wants to go further back, that's ok, I will defer that title to him, but that's not the point.
They have come a long way since the days of Glidden, Gapp & Rousch and others running them in Pro-stock.
650hp and 500 ft-lbs of torque that is streetable is not hard to do. I just don't understand these comments that you can't get power out of the engine.
Ask McCall about this. To me this is just out and out bull s hit that somehow is coming out of the subversive Chevy camp? It's a bunch of c rap. It's from the Corvette wanna-be's.
Next thing people will be putting Camaro mirrors on the thing? Gee-se!
I can tell you also, it ain't gonna' cost you $15,000. I don't know who you are talking too but it's your car. Turn it into anything you want and I wish you the best but it does not sound like you are off on the right foot...maybe the left one...and you need cowbell, but timed just right...not just anywhere?
One of these started life as a Pantera. I forget which one? Anyone remember?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tv5z4yWbLro
The main problem with this "modification" of Panteras is just that people got them too cheap. It wouldn't happen if it cost someone what an Aventador does. That's just the harsh reality.
He was saying that the engine was around 800hp (if I remember correctly) and had to be dialed down to 7,000 rpm and about 700 hp.
I've seen and heard this car. It is streetable. If your locality decides for some inexplicable reason to bring back "Trollies", they will hire him to cut the grooves in the pavement for the tracks by just doing burnouts.
I've been around Clevelands a long time, since 1972. If George wants to go further back, that's ok, I will defer that title to him, but that's not the point.
They have come a long way since the days of Glidden, Gapp & Rousch and others running them in Pro-stock.
650hp and 500 ft-lbs of torque that is streetable is not hard to do. I just don't understand these comments that you can't get power out of the engine.
Ask McCall about this. To me this is just out and out bull s hit that somehow is coming out of the subversive Chevy camp? It's a bunch of c rap. It's from the Corvette wanna-be's.
Next thing people will be putting Camaro mirrors on the thing? Gee-se!
I can tell you also, it ain't gonna' cost you $15,000. I don't know who you are talking too but it's your car. Turn it into anything you want and I wish you the best but it does not sound like you are off on the right foot...maybe the left one...and you need cowbell, but timed just right...not just anywhere?
One of these started life as a Pantera. I forget which one? Anyone remember?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tv5z4yWbLro
The main problem with this "modification" of Panteras is just that people got them too cheap. It wouldn't happen if it cost someone what an Aventador does. That's just the harsh reality.
I agree that I don't see the cost and horsepower goals being a problem in keeping a Cleveland. There is a plethora of recent builds using modern heads and cam technology that are making rediculous power. They may not get the quiet idle and the mileage of a LT 4, but I am not sure how much of a concern those two things are in such a build. 650hp is going to be a handful regardless of the configuration. As for the original question of what do I think of such a build. I just don't have much support for it in a car like a GT5S that I consider to be very special. If I had the funds a GT5S without a wing would be at the top of my list.
Well yes, you can build a big high power Cleveland. I know I built mine. My GT5-S is a 1988 car. It has a solid roller, CHI heads,a hand made rev-kit. Also it has sequential fuel injection, 398CID. It can turn 8000 rpm but I limit it to 7600. Cost for such an engine capable of that with the best parts and you will spend at least 18000.00 or better. But, that being said sure build an iron block, carbureted Cleveland with still old technology, and still try to bring it up to date with the best parts. You still have old tech. And the price you quote of $15,625 no one will pay that. As that is retail.
Try to build a Aluminum Cleveland, weather it be a Fontana or Dart, World products
you will spend 3-4000.00 just on the block. The LT4 has Direct Injection, no distributor gear to fail. All aluminum block and heads, supercharged with 650 Torque @ 4400 rpm, 650HP@6400. And in a smaller, lighter package. And running a ECU to do the timing, you can't get a distributor to control timing as that can.
So as tech gets better even lighter and more powerful engines will come out. If we can put that in our Pantera's why not?
Thanks, James
Try to build a Aluminum Cleveland, weather it be a Fontana or Dart, World products
you will spend 3-4000.00 just on the block. The LT4 has Direct Injection, no distributor gear to fail. All aluminum block and heads, supercharged with 650 Torque @ 4400 rpm, 650HP@6400. And in a smaller, lighter package. And running a ECU to do the timing, you can't get a distributor to control timing as that can.
So as tech gets better even lighter and more powerful engines will come out. If we can put that in our Pantera's why not?
Thanks, James