Making the Pantera faster!

Best way to make my Pantera faster is to take me out of it for big weight savings.

I seen a ford Pinto motor (4cyl turbo) in a late model mustang run 135mph at high 9's in the last Hot Rod or Car Craft

That might be worth some weight savings and in the right spot the rear on the car for that 50/50 balance

Never mind I don't want to go fast that bad! LOL...

George, Its getting late over here..I want dependtibiliy I think that comes with knowing what you have..If you have fresh clutch, lubed joints. and msd.. you can go many miles.. I just want to know the diff in rapid and Fast....My passenger today said my car pulled hard....If you go too fast you had better get on a track....or you may need suplimental prepaid???. Not taking over yor thread...just satified with stock 330 hp Did you burn out Coz's whity....no no. Ill try to do my part and get up to Tenn and try Detoms tires and wheels. Did you laugh a lot?

To save on weight, here's my quick top four. First to go are the creature comforts..

- air conditioning. lose it. that's what windows are for. Plus, A/C is for wusses.
- power window motors. remove them. especially those hard to find and heavy aerostar mini-van motors. Ship them to me.
- get rid of your radio with the big amp. And don't forget your cd changer, and especially that big-boom box with the carpet over it. your kid will love to put all that crap on his ricer.
- and last, but certainly not least..is stop all those damn quick trips to McDonalds!! This is the hardest of the four. But is this anti-American?

thanks for making me think, George!
Kevin

Yep George, removing weight is equivilant to adding power. It' can be cheaper and easier too. It all adds up (or down)!

My recommendation is to start by removing your roofs (you won't regret it)!

Michael

You guys crack me up.

I feel like Rodney Dangerfield, no I don't mean dead! I mean I get no respect! lol.....

Kevin, next time you visit the left coast, come on by Fillmore, we'll drive to Ventura and I'll introduce you to a fish taco at Snapper Jack's Taco Shack. One fish taco and you'll forget all about Mcdonald's. Then it's back to my place for a buttery nipple. Or maybe we'll swing by Doug's and make it a threesome, hey Dougo?

Bill, I treated Jim's Pantera with care. What an honor to be allowed to drive another owners pride & joy. Jim wanted to show me what his Pantera could do, so he blasted down the back roads around my home town. Later he asked, that wasn't fast was it? Nah, I replied, just rapid! LOL....

Yes, we both laughed a lot. Didn't you know, anybody who owns a Pantera is a few fries short of a happy meal?

DeTom, help! you want titanium axles don't you?

George

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:

My recommendation is to start by removing your roofs (you won't regret it)!

Michael

But then you have to weld on so much steel reinforcement that you end up with a heavier car. Unless you want an accordian for a car!

Instead, why not just remove a non-structural item, Like the decklid, for example!

BTW, George. Since you drove Coz's white car.. Can I now call you a SELL-OUT!

Kevin

Even though I wasn't to be taken seriously by removing roofs, it is interesting to consider how much weight goes into the reinforcing of the chassis. It's not as much as you might think, but I'm going to try and find out close to how much it actually is.

Does anybody out there with a late model 5-S have a weight on their car?

What does a regular Pantera weigh?

Michael

My GT-5 clone (1972) weighed in at exactly 3300 pounds with a half tank of fuel.

Steve

No sell out here, I have no plans to change the color of 6018 in the forseeable future. I like silver! So did Jim's son by the way.

I guess driving a white Pantera is like dating an unattractive woman. Feels great, just hate for your buddies to find out. (I hope I cleaned that joke up good enough)

By the way Kevin, removal of creature comforts? Hell I'd remove my BRAKES before I removed my air conditioning!

Michael, Gary Hall said the bracing installed beneath his Purple Pantera (which is also a Targa) added about 70 pounds to his car. Pay attention guys, that bracing would be the best bracing any Pantera owner could install to control chassis flex for racing etc...Topic for another day.

It's late, haven't eaten yet, gotta go, catch you guys tomorrow. George

George,

I can add a little here, I think.....

My current motor was built to have 450 HP, we used the best that we could get without going into roller anything. It was built to be strong and :-) rapid while still keeping drivability and dependability. I have put about 25,000 miles on this motor since building it and nothing has gone wrong with it other than replacing the intake manifold gasket about 3000 miles ago. As time goes on, it seems to be actually running smoother and better. I burned maybe 1/2 quart of oil on this latest trip of 1500 miles. Which stands to reason since going from Vegas to LA I was racing with a Mercedes 500s most of the way hitting speeds of 140+. (Which by the way could never pass me) Much of which had a lot to do with setting, breaking in the rings correctly. I change the oil every 3000 miles, new plugs, cap and rotor every 10,000 weather it's needed or not. Several have ridden in my car and all have said that it runs very smooth and is very quick. When I got to Valencia, it just so happen I pulled up next to a Diablo at a traffic light. What a beauty it was. We exchanged pleasantries and how nice each others cars were. The light changed and we were off. We ran pretty much side by side through 2 gears and then both decided no tickets today and backed off. When we stopped at the next light, he looked over and said, Damm, your car runs F-en great. That was a pretty cool compliment considering what he was sitting in.

The aluminum flywheel did take some getting used to. But now that I have it in, I wouldn't want my cast iron one back in at all. It smoothed out the performance even more. At first I didn't think I liked it because I didn't feel the grunt torque anymore. But after getting used to it, I've realized that I am going just s fast and getting there much quicker. So in a way, I guess it's actually going faster if it was to be measured time wise. And,,,,if I want to, I can still light the rear tires up like they were on ice. Not to mention, the aluminum flywheel has got to be easier on the crank and internal motor parts not having to spin that iron freebie.

George and I discussed building another motor for my car, the pro's and con's of doing so and the money it would take. After some discussion about it, what George said made a lot of since. I have a strong and rapid :-) motor already that is very tight and runs like a bat out of hell. What would be accomplished by building another motor for it. Instead, the money would be better spend by having Don Gould build me my Demon Carburetor, have the distributor re-curved and getting the complete timing better than I have it now, which isn't all that bad. This would give me even better throttle response than I already have. So this is going to be my next step motor wise and I believe money well spent in my case. Then there's a couple of other simple modifications he suggested that I will also do. All of which will make the motor perform even better than it does now. At some point, it's the fine tuning that becomes most important.

As George said in this post, after having a tight motor, what becomes very important is the weight. I put a fiberglass front hood on mine. That alone shaved at least 60 pounds off the front end. I plan on putting a rear fiberglass deck lid on in the near future, that alone will probably shave another 80 to 100 pounds off the rear end. It's a simple fact when you have enough power already, going faster can be achieved without sacrificing dependability and drivability by cutting the weight off the car.

I once built a Porsche 914 and converted it to a Chevy 350. It was build right at 325 HP. The car weighed about 1700 pounds and was faster than my Pantera at 450 HP and 3200 pounds.

George, please feel to correct me if I'm wrong or misquoted you....

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
Even though I wasn't to be taken seriously by removing roofs, it is interesting to consider how much weight goes into the reinforcing of the chassis. It's not as much as you might think, but I'm going to try and find out close to how much it actually is.

Does anybody out there with a late model 5-S have a weight on their car?

What does a regular Pantera weigh?

Michael

Michael, my comment on adding weight was done with tongue in cheek. Sometimes weight gain is GOOD!

Maybe I should put more smileys

Kevin

Faster? or quicker?

awww, crap. Who cares?

Kevin,

I knew your tongue was in your cheek. I just didn't want anyone else to think that I was serious about recommending cutting major structural parts off their Pantera to save weight!

Black and white text is sometimes a poor translator of what meaning is intended. It can be frustrating at times.

Smileys help though. The more, the merrier!

Michael

Michael,

Cool!

George - I know Jack DeRyke is a big proponent of losing weight (on his Pantera). When he was on this BB, he'd always mention all the little things he would do to lose weight.

I think he has a sub 3000 lb car. Don't know if he's ditched his wussy air conditioner, though!

Kevin

Well said George.

For performance cars there are a lot of compromises to reach the intended design goal. There are compromises related to acceleration, top speed and handling (not including economics, esthetics, comfort ...)

Lotus for years designed their cars to be as light as possible with the lowest Polar Moment of Inertia (P.M.I. - sorry no pun intended). That is one reason they stuck with 4 cylinder engines even on their earlier Esprit - they continue that with the Elise. Honda does the same with their Civic and Acura NSX. Although, in my mind, and taste, a sports car has to be mid-engined with a V-8 at least, I have to recognize that the NSX with its V-6 has had very good racing success.

My car is a '74 daily driver that I took out to road course timed events once in a while. I get a thrill out of charging into a corner, trying to optomise how deep I can brake into it (Yes PPC Willwoods) and then accelerating away. For me, getting the apex just right gives me a high. I love roads with turns and switch backs. Outdragging somebody down the street just doesn't do it for me - nor do I bother. I know what I have, and I don't have anything to prove. It is not a dragster - it is a sports car.

What I want to add to George's comment is that weight reduction should be taken seriously and as he eluded to, it is also important WHERE that weight reduction occurs.

I like the look of the 74+ N.A. bumpers and I like the protection I have gotten over the years. There have been times when AHol drivers have bumped me (I think they get used to getting away with bumping cars and not getting any body damage - so those F'ers think its OK). Those bumpers have saved me from totally blowing my head gasket and pummelling them more times than I care to recall. I did, however, recognize that the bumpers weigh a ton, and they are at the worst place for P.M.I. I changed them out for fiberglass ones years ago. They have worked well for me and looked better than the original front wavey rubber ones. Would I rather not have them from a handling and performance point of view? - you bet. But for the reasons I just mentioned I compromised.

There are many other things I did to my car. But before I did any engine work, (have basically the stock engine in it - except for a CC for OC head swap) I looked for ways to cut weight with primary focus on those areas further out from the C.G. as those pay double dividends. I made decisions with my personal preferences weighing into the compromise equation. Others have other opinions and I understand, respect and appreciate their points of view.

One more thing, I am a "free perspirer" and I can't even consider giving up my AC. Hell! I would spend the mega dollars just to keep it going with all the R12/R134a changes.

"andriyko"

P.S. Sorry for getting a little technish - but it is hard for an mechanical/aeronautical engineer to avoid.

Hear, hear!! I raise my buttery nipple to George!! Right on bro. If peeps want a race car, they should start with something designed to be a race car. Buy a GT-40 kit and go from there. THe GT-40 is like seven inches lower to the ground than a Pantera. Pantera was meant to be a grand touring car. GT-40 was a race car in the grand touring class of race cars. They only sold three streetable GT_40s. It was a sales flop. That is why they made the Pantera. To make the ULTIMATE grand touring car. Sure the Pantera can be modernized and improved and all that. But keep it a grand touring car and you will be a satisfied owner. Try and make it something it wasn't meant to be and you will wear a frown my friend.

quote:

DeTom, help! you want titanium axles don't you?

George

Heck titanium axles is just the start. The whole body should be redone in carbon fiber epoxy with kevlar reinforcements. Then the wheels need to be real live magnesium, screw the fire safty!! Plexiglas instead of glass, spare tire?? race cars keep those on pit lane. Fire extiguisher?? Hell if this baby goes up in flames you will want to die with her, because all your wordly possesions are tied up in this one vehicle!! Expense be damned, we will make the McClaren F1 look like a kia in as far as costs!! I got some ideas NASA would love to do if they could afford it!

Coz you forgot to mention that the absolute coolest thing about a featherweight flywheel is when you goose the gas at idle and it goes WAAAA-Paaaa!!! Sounds like racing!!!

quote:

Hell if this baby goes up in flames you will want to die with her, because all your wordly possesions are tied up in this one vehicle!!

DeTom,

I hear what you're saying, the insurance money could never fill the void!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
Coz you forgot to mention that the absolute coolest thing about a featherweight flywheel is when you goose the gas at idle and it goes WAAAA-Paaaa!!! Sounds like racing!!!

Some weight savings things to consider:
1) Replace the rear window with a Polycarb window. Available at more Pant dealers, Larry Stock who owns a plastic shop makes them.
2) The alum flywheel is a massive weight savings.
3) Alum heads and intake. The heads are harder for Cleveland boys but for us windsor fans, alum heads are almost standard. Big savings here plus performance bumps to boot.
4) For the "L" models dump the stock bumpers for fiberglass versions. Also remove the stock shock style bumper mounts. I fabbed up a alum tube mount using 2" thick wall tubing. Those mounts are about 10 pounds each (X4).
5)For the diehards, the brass radiator is heavier then an alum models. Consider spending the cash for a more efficent alum radaitor.
6) Replace the stock cast iron brake calipers with alum models. Double bonus of saving total weight but also less sprung weight for better handling.
7) Replace a standard lead/acid battery with a gel unit. I went with an Odyssey unit. Weight wise lighter then other gel units with the same CCA. http://www.odysseybatteries.com/
8) Dump the heavy stock cast iron style starter for a lightweight high torque unit.
9) Consider changing the stock cast iron master brake cyl to a wilwood alum unit.
10) Move the A/C condensor to the front of the car. Eliminates the condensor fan and its weight.
11) Between the bellhousing and engine there is a steel plate to cover the flywheel. Model the steel unit with one of alum. That thing was heavy.
Just some ideas to consider.

Thanks Rover for your ideas.

I have done most of them. When I overhaul/upgrade the engine (not too far in the future now) I will go with Aluminum heads and I like the starter suggestion (number 8). I will look at number 2 and 11. I will probably have a look at an aluminum water pump as well.

I'll have a #3) and a #6) with fries and a coke please!

Michael