Mangusta clutch

Pick up an old stairmaster and then cut the RH foot pad off.... ! You'll be in shape in no time!!!!

I'll let Denis chime in on his clutch. Mine is all stock Ford parts. Stiff, but not outrageous....until you get stuck in traffic....

Steve

Hi Steve and Mark. As you know I bought Denis's car. Before I bought it, he had put a Mcleod type of three pronged clutch plate on the car and it took two legs to step on the clutch. I told him one of the conditions of buying the car was to change out the clutch. I had Denis put in a Centerforce clutch and disk I got from Mangusta International. The effort after the clutch installation is about half of what the McCloud clutch was. I should note that the flywheel needs to be changed to a steel flywheel as the centerforce clutch does not fit the stock flywheel. The clutch is manageable but still firm. I have driven a stock Mangusta and the clutch is softer than the Centerforce. Problem is where do you get a stock Mangusta Clutch. Ben

Ben,

That's an easy answer!!!

Ford!

Same pressure plate as used in a bazillion Mustangs, Cougars, Fairlanes, Comets, and probably a few Galaxies too!

I forget what the exact part number is, but it is listed in the Goose parts book and can still be purchased from Ford in a rebuilt form, and also from auto parts stores...

It is a 10.5" pressure plate, but for some reason, DeT chose to run a 10" disc... I think I upgraded mine back to a 10.5 with dual Kevlar friction surfaces. After 6-7 years and at least 20K miles, the disc and surfaces look like new. A worthwhile upgrade!

But, back to your point about pedal pressure....with the stock Ford 3 pronged PP, you will still have crazy heavy pedal pressure.

You are correct about having to change the flywheel to one with a more modern bolt pattern to fit the diaphragm pressure plate. You could also have the flywheel redrilled for the new pattern. Plenty of meat to do that and not require a new flywheel. All depends on how good or bad your original is...and how cheap your machinist works!

Somewhere in my records/notes/emails, I think Denis had sent me numbers of what he purchased....but it may have been for the McLeod version.... Will have to dig and see what I can find.....

Steve

My issue was a spring had dislodged itself from the friction disk, it was caught in time and all I had to replace was the clutch. I just went to the local BULLY distributor and asked if he could find a replacement and it was done in the same day. Had him replace the release bearing (PN 1625) at the same time. Total cost $275

I don't know what you guys are talking about. My clutch pedal goes to the floor with no effort at all. Of course, some people suggest that if I actually had hydraulic fluid in my clutch lines the effort would be a BIT higher.

My early Pantera that does not benefit from the modified effort-reduction linkage of the newer cars and here's how I would rank the efforts on a scale of 1 (least effort) to 10 (most effort).

my Infinity G37: 1/10
1983 GT5: 3/10
My 71 Pantera: 6/10
Denis' Mangusta 18/10

I mean seriously, there is a problem. Since it has a new clutch and a new slave, is it possible you might need to change the master. We know the pedal linkage is moving freely, so unless there is some serious corrosion constricting your lines, I would start with a new master before I put another new clutch in.

Mark

Unfortunately I don't have the part numbers with me. I stored them at my parents house back in Hawaii when I moved. I initially had a Mcleod long style racing pressure plate in it and as Ben said, the pedal was extremely stiff. Dana told me that it was the nature of the clutch design of the Mangusta not the parts that kept it stiff. It was still stiff after installing the Centerforce unit. I have driven Center Force equipped cars before and this was stiffer than any that I've driven so I guess that Dana was correct. The clutch disk was a 10" Chevy splined that had the nose cut down. Mcleod sells a direct fit disk that doesn't require the machining.

The location of the bellcrank on the ZF clutch shaft can also have an impact on the heaviness of the clutch pedal. Be sure that the travel range, when pushing the pedal in, is evenly distributed above and below the shaft center.

If it is not the slave cylinder will be pushing the bellcrank more in a straight line either on the bottom or the top of the stroke which is ver hard to do. With an easy clutch you can adjust the bellcrank to require more force when the pedal is at the top of it's stroke and make it easy to hold in at the bottom resulting in a more sensitive release.

Centerforce told me that their pressure plates are not easier to actuate for the given value (foot pounds), of the unit. You just need the right pressure plate / disc combination. Some people think that a high value or "racing" pressure plate is better but all you get is a sore foot if you do not have an engine in front of it that requires one.
Your engine horsepower, torque, traction availability and use (street or racing), should determine the pressure plate that you need resulting in the lowest possible clutch pedal effort.
Dick Ruzzin

quote:

Some people think that a high value or "racing" pressure plate is better but all you get is a sore foot if you do not have an engine in front of it that requires one. Your engine horsepower, torque, traction availability and use (street or racing), should determine the pressure plate that you need resulting in the lowest possible clutch pedal effort.

Absolutey agree; nothing makes driving a car less fun than a too-stiff clutch for the job, especially around town. And consider: all the reaction force from pushing in a really stiff clutch pedal goes into the flywheel, then the crank, and finally against the crankshaft thrust bearing. Which is the only crank bearing NOT pressure-fed oil....
"Stiff" competition clutches are around 2600+ lbs, performance units are around 2000-2200 lbs and OEM are (I think) around 1600 lbs. That's a LOT of force to react into a small surface area leakage-fed bearing, and the OEM over-center linkage does not reduce it, at least initially. In fact, the leverage causes initial force to go up. Pedal force reduces after you mat the clutch pedal but the same (high) amount of reaction force is pushing against the bearing.

Although not strictly Mangusta-related, I know a Pantera owner who suffered from an extremely heavy clutch; it turns out that the two needle bearings that the clutch fork rides on (inside the gearbox case) were badly corroded, and that was responsible for the heavy feel. That said, a diaphragm-style clutch (whether made by Centerforce or McLeod) will deliver much less pedal effort for a given amount of clamping force. I recently helped change a way-stiff three-finger clutch for a McLeod diaphraghm clutch in a '71 Pantera and it made a night-and-day difference. McLoed has a Mangusta clutch assembly as a standard catalog item, and it will bolt right up to a standard flywheel. That's definitely what I would do in this case, assuming there's no fundamental problem elsewhere in the system.

The pressure plate that I installed in the Mangusta for Ben was a centerforce diaphragm unit. While it was a lot softer than the 2800lb Mcleod racing pressure plate that I had in it, it was still stiff compared to other centerforce diaphragm pressure plated equipped cars that I have driven including one in a pantera. The clutch for was not binding so I believe that Dana is right in thinking that it is in the design of the Mangustas clutch system. The orignal ford pressure plate was softer so if you want soft and not overly concerned with grip that would be the way to go.

A diaphragm pressure plate that will bolt right up??? I was just at my clutch guy's place on Thurs, and he isn't aware of any diaphragm style assy's that bolt onto a Ford flywheel of old.....so will need to look into this..... I don't think he's a big fan of Centerforce for some reason...... He's what I call the "clutch nazi"..... "No disc for you! Back of the line!"

OK, I found these on the McLeod website. Looks like they have two of them, one with 2500# and one with 1700# of clamping pressure. Two different finger heights...not sure which one is for the GOose, but I would guess the one with...OK I'm not guessing...I have no idea which one is better as I could find no description of what 2.070 @ .300 works out to be...really.

360030 FORD 1975-1985 ; 10" Diaphragm. W/ 10.5" Long Patt. 2.070 @ .300 2504 # 3 1/8 No 10" $215.00

360025 FORD 1975-1985 ; Diaphragm. W/ 10.5" Long Patt 1.880 @ .300 1700 # 3 1/8 No 10" $254.00

Steve

I have to go against Dana's experience on the clutch effort with my own. When I got my car it had the original Chevrolet clutch disc and pressure plate for the 327 small block, LT-1.
The clutch was not real heavy.
It was very nicely progressive upon release.

Clutch pedal effort is, for the most part, determined by the pressure plate spring force that has to be overcome by the hydraulic linkage. If you have a pressure plate with stiff springs the pedal will be hard to push.

When I had my engine done five years ago the builders put in a racing clutch that had such stiff springs that the slave cylinder rod bent!
I could hardly drive the car. It has been changed to one that matches the engine horsepower, torque and car weight. It is much lighter and easy to drive now.

To evaluate clutch pedal force/effort you have to know the pressure plate force rating in foot pounds. Color or make of car does not matter.
Also, to repeat, Centerforce told me, over the phone, that their pressure plate mechanism does not in itself diminish required pedal force.
Dick Ruzzin
Dick Ruzzin

quote:

Originally posted by Mangusta:
A diaphragm pressure plate that will bolt right up??? I was just at my clutch guy's place on Thurs, and he isn't aware of any diaphragm style assy's that bolt onto a Ford flywheel of old.....so will need to look into this..... I don't think he's a big fan of Centerforce for some reason...... He's what I call the "clutch nazi"..... "No disc for you! Back of the line!"

OK, I found these on the McLeod website. Looks like they have two of them, one with 2500# and one with 1700# of clamping pressure. Two different finger heights...not sure which one is for the GOose, but I would guess the one with...OK I'm not guessing...I have no idea which one is better as I could find no description of what 2.070 @ .300 works out to be...really.

360030 FORD 1975-1985 ; 10" Diaphragm. W/ 10.5" Long Patt. 2.070 @ .300 2504 # 3 1/8 No 10" $215.00

360025 FORD 1975-1985 ; Diaphragm. W/ 10.5" Long Patt 1.880 @ .300 1700 # 3 1/8 No 10" $254.00

Steve

The Mcleod was a long style pressure plate. According to what Dana Hansen told Ben is that the Centerforce diaphragm unit is custom made for the Goose, no mass produced unit will fit.

quote:

Originally posted by Dick Ruzzin:
I have to go against Dana's experience on the clutch effort with my own. When I got my car it had the original Chevrolet clutch disc and pressure plate for the 327 small block, LT-1.
The clutch was not real heavy.
It was very nicely progressive upon release.

Clutch pedal effort is, for the most part, determined by the pressure plate spring force that has to be overcome by the hydraulic linkage. If you have a pressure plate with stiff springs the pedal will be hard to push.

When I had my engine done five years ago the builders put in a racing clutch that had such stiff springs that the slave cylinder rod bent!
I could hardly drive the car. It has been changed to one that matches the engine horsepower, torque and car weight. It is much lighter and easy to drive now.

To evaluate clutch pedal force/effort you have to know the pressure plate force rating in foot pounds. Color or make of car does not matter.
Also, to repeat, Centerforce told me, over the phone, that their pressure plate mechanism does not in itself diminish required pedal force.
Dick Ruzzin
Dick Ruzzin

The stock diaphragm pressure plate was a relatively soft pedal. Changing to even the Centerforce diaphragm pressure plate increased the stiffness in the pedal. I'm sure that the holding power of the aftermarket units are better but will be at the sacrifice of pedal stiffness. If the stock Ford unit will provide adequate holding power then it will be your best option. I have found Centerforce pressure plates to usually be quite soft on the pedal but not so much on the Mangusta so it's either int the design of the custom one made for the goose or the goose's clutch system. Perhaps the clutch master or bore size would have a bearing on it?

I talked to Dana Hansen and he mentioned the clutch can be adjusted to make the effort easier. Can anyone explain how to adjust the clutch mechanism on the Mangusta for more or less effort. Is it done at the pedal or near the transmission? Thanks Ben

HI,
You can adjust the lever on the ZF. It sits on a splined shaft that runs in the opposite direction of the centerline of the car. Loosen the bolt and tap it lightly from the side to push it off the shaft if necessary. It can be repositioned if necessary.
See the directions below.

With someone in the car that can push the clutch in and with the slave cylinder working very well, with no air in it and the adjustment allowing enough play in the mechanism when the clutch is released, do the following:

>Check the angle of the lever when the clutch is out. The end of the lever engaging the slave cylinder rod will be pointing up.

>Have the person in the car push the clutch pedal in. The lever will start pointing down as the pedal is pushed in.

>When the pedal is all the way in the lever will be pointing down at maximum. Imagine an imaginary line running horizontally through the splined shaft.


>This is when you check to see if the lever travels an equal amount of distance above the imaginary line, pedal out, and below the imaginary line, pedal in.

In that position the lever is being pushed by the clutch rod through an arc that is divided in half by the imaginary line.

>After re-positioning the lever, if necessary, re-adjust the clutch rod length.

It helps to work this out on paper first so you understand it. If the lever is not adjusted in the center position you will be pushing the end of the clutch arm in a straight line, with clutch out or clutch in, instead of an arc. This requires a lot more effort to release the clutch.

You can play with this once you get it centered to be hard to push the pedal at the top and easy tp hold it in at the bottom.

CLUTCHES
The car clutches, clutch brand, diameter and material have nothing to do with the force required to depress the clutch pedal in YOUR car. Only the spring loading in YOUR pressure plate does that.

Using a clutch pressure plate that is not matched to the engine displacement, horsepower,
torque, engine weight and traction capability can result in a slipping clutch or a clutch pedal that is very hard to push in.

Do not fall for a "racing clutch" that is over pressurized for your engine.

That is how you get a clutch that is too stiff for street driving.

A pressure plate and clutch for your engine in a Mustang that weighs fifteen percent more than a Mangusta would be just about right given that the Mangusta has superior traction potential.

Give me a call if you have problems. 313-824-0539.

DICK RUZZIN

Currently my clutch grabs way too high off the floor. I noticed there were thread on the actuator rod of the slave cylinder. I lengthened the rod thinking that may allow the clutch to pick up further down on the floor instead of high up. But lengthening the actuator rod did virtually nothing to change the engagement of the clutch. I think the clutch may be self adjusting with changes in the threaded part of the rod.

Ben,
Check the position of your ZF clutch arm.

You also could also have air in your slave cylinder hydraulic system.
Try bleeding it, there is a bleeder valve on the side of the slave cylinder.

Dick Ruzzin

Ben,
The clutch arm is not self adjusting.

You could have too much play in the pedal adjustment. That is controlled by the adjustment of the slave cylinder rod length.

That adjustment is very sensitive. If there is no play it will cause damage to the throughout bearing or the ZF shifting forks. If you have gear noise when shifting into gear you probably have the slave cylinder rod too short.

You can check the play in the clutch system by
pulling down on the end of the clutch arm at the point where it contacts the slave cylinder. You should feel and see at least 1/8 of an inch play. Measuring at the pedal is also good.

There is another adjustment at the clutch master cylinder. That is the master cylinder rod which has a threaded end at the pedal connection. This adjustment changes the position of the pedal very slightly.

By extending the rod the pedal is raised assuring full engagement of the slave cylinder when the pedal is in the full depressed position.

Dick Ruzzin

NEW PRESSURE PLATE
If your pressure plate fits the Mangusta then why not just get it rebuilt? You can put a new disc with it or also have that resurfaced if a replacement disc is not available.

That way you know it will be work and it can be speced out to exactly fit the need of your application.

The clutch shop will know what you need based on engine power, torque, weight, car, etc.

Dick Ruzzin

I just got a message from Jack Dowling and he says he put a different clutch master cylinder from Summit with a bore diameter of 0.625" and it reduced the clutch effort by about 25%. I'll try that first. Changing the clutch is a big effort item for me. If that does not work then I get the old stock clutch rebuilt. Do you know of any shop that can rebuild a stock clutch?

I put the Clutch master from Summit and the clutch is noticeably softer and more easy to modulate. I can live with this clutch now.