New Custom Radiator; need opinions

Any comments before they start building this radiator? Anything to improve on the Fluidnye radiators?

I don't know anything about radiators, but I do know that Pantera Electronics makes really good stuff. I have heard from a trustworthy vendor (Wilkinson) that the Pantera Electronics fan control works really well.

Best of luck!

I just received the fan control today and will start the install tomorrow. My only concern is what I would do if it failed 5 years from now and Jon is no longer supporting his items. I guess worst case I can put it back the way it was. I will need many pictures...

quote:

Anything to improve on the Fluidnye radiator

My question to you is why are you reinventing the wheel?

First off I assume you are having it made in aluminum?

The fluidyne has been generally accepted as a good performing replacement for the stock unit. Early builds seemed to have some longevity issues, that appears to have been fixed.

That said...

Yes, a shroud will restrict movement. But that appears to not be an issue. All the fluidyne installs are shrouded. And with dual flexalite fans, most of the area IS open to air flow.

DO extend the water necks for fan clearance. You should have your fans on hand before the build to make sure they will properly fit.

Fans should never mount with the zip ties some vendors supply. Will tear up the core fins over time. Pop rivets and aluminum stock can be used to fabricate a mounting system. There should be enough area, and accessibility, on the top and bottom cover plates for riveting.

There is a proper black paint for radiators. It is not paint as you normally think of it. Regular paint will detract from the cooling performance. Personally, since your radiator is not stock, you are adding Jon's controls and I imagine other upgrades, I would just stay with natural finish aluminum.

But again, why reinvent the wheel?

Larry

I don't intend to reinvent the wheel. I was at a hot rod show in the Chicago area and a rep from Be Cool Radiators was there. They're products are very nice at least in appearance and they have a good reputation from engine builders I have talked to.

I spoke to the rep who indicated he was familiar with Panteras and was interested in building a radiator system, radiator and fans. The rest is now in motion. I figured another product in the market could only be a good thing. From all I have read the Fluidyne appears to be working well, as are some other aluminum and even stock radiators. Although I have read a couple blogs on leaking Fluidyne radiators. Of course I am not naive to the fact that there will always be a couple problem products when dealing with such volume. I had also read else where that Fluidyne had sourced their products overseas, but I have not seen any more on this so I don't know where they are made. Does anyone else know? I would like to buy American if possible.

In my case I have a new high output engine that I wanted to make sure cooled properly, so I am taking advise from you guys on the site and doing proper upgrades, SS tubes, electronics etc My current radiator is original and I have watched the temp climb on occasion with the old engine. Since there are a couple different options and/or opinions such as upgraded electronics shroud vs no shroud, lay down or leave it upright, I figured it couldn't hurt to try another vendor to see what they come up with. That's why I'm looking for any input on any improvements that could be made to what is out there now. And yes, it has crossed my mind that I have started a journey that I should have left alone, but the guys from Be Cool have been incredibly supportive and certainly have experience in the business.

So what do you think, maybe a DeTomaso emblem burned into the top of the radiator.

ISIS OR PANTERA across the top would be a nice option, if it was not going to be covered.

I have been looking for a shroud for my fluidyne, can't stand those ties. Any idea where to snag one?

Courious on what the cost and specs are going to be on your be cool radiator, please keep us posted.

Angelo

quote:

the guys from Be Cool have been incredibly supportive

Supportive, on a new prototype to add to their line should translate to a free radiator.

quote:

can't stand those ties

If you are using them already, please do realize they may very well already be damaging your core, especially if you have an aluminum radiator.

Larry

Here is a photo of the shrouded Ron Davis stock replacement that Quella sells.

quote:

any improvements that could be made

You may want to consider adjusting the angle of the bottom mounting pins to reflect the change in mounting angle.

And as mentioned earlier, you may want to consider enlarging the top and bottom cover plates to provide mounting sections for the shrouded fans.

Is Be Cool also providing the shroud and fans?

Larry

I had a radiator built by Mculloch fabricating in AZ, I also did the swirl tank mods as suggested on this forum.... My car will not even reach operating temp in the morning, it runs at 154 with a single 16" spal. Once I put the A/C condensor in front of it and turn on the fan I HOPE I can get it to run at 190....

I am not planning on putting the AC up front. Of course things change..

Be Cool is building the radiator with fans, so they will incorporate the fan mounts or shroud as they build the radiator. Still trying to determine if I want the shroud or not. I want to be able to have the car drivable on the street but I also run the car at open track events in the mid-west. A shroud with vents that open at speed might be best; however, I do agree with the "kiss" principal so I am on the fence.

PLT-1 wrote he is only running 154 deg. Shouldn't the thermostat restrict the flow so the engine temp warms to operating temp? I wish I understood this all better but I have read that running to cool may be worse than a little hot. Did you do the whole system where you eliminated the over flow tank?

It is my understanding that 160 deg is minimum temp for straight 50 oil... The coolant mods are here ( on the forum ) somewhere as a drawing, I looked for it but could not find it.... I know CFH has it, Larry probably has/can find it...

quote:

Larry probably has/can find it...

Thanks for that vote of confidence...

Forum thread is here:

http://tinyurl.com/cooling-tanks

It was engineered by John Taphorn.

John Taphorn's article is here:

http://www.spacecitypanteras.c...Cooling-JTaphorn.pdf

http://www.spacecitypanteras.c...era_coolant_flow.jpg

Larry

I couldn't find that anywhere I finally thought to search by author and found my old post where you guys helped me...

http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...280026295#2280026295

Ive followed these cooling system mods here on the forums. Very impressive engineering and fabrication. Some day I will take on a project like these. Maybe next winters. I am equally concerned with oil temps and will be keeping a close eye on that this summer. I just hope I get everything back together and running to take advantage of some spirited driving this summer.

Until I am able to take on these extensive modifications, is anybody running an air cooled oil cooler that works?

quote:

an air cooled oil cooler that works

Based on the experiences of those who have been there and done that, I've come to believe there is no such critter.

Water cooled oil cooler, however, does work.

Of course, your cooling system has to be top notch to handle the extra heat.

Larry

quote:

Of course, your cooling system has to be top notch to handle the extra heat.

Larry

Thus the new radiator.

Are the water/oil coolers available through the normal sources.

Anybody try using a separate cooling system for the water/oil cooler coolant like they do on the newer supercharged cars for their charge coolers? Of course that means running coolant lines to the front of the car and adding another radiator albeit a smaller one and fluid pump. Probably not worth the effort; however this would avoid tapping into the existing cooling system. And if it were to develop a leak or failure it would not be catastrophic, you just wouldn't have the oil cooling feature, the oil would still flow and standard cooling system would continue.

I need to stop thinking about this so much before I overheat.

If you back-up one page, to the Engine Forum Summary page, you'll see sticky #2 about the cooling system. All the info most owners will ever need is there.

There are two schools of thought in regards to cooling systems, the older school of thought believes in slowing the coolant down, giving it time to absorb heat in the engine block and time to transfer heat to the air in the radiator. This is the basis of the Panteras cooling system. Frankly, it seems to work quite well with good quality parts.

The newer school of thought believes in speeding up the flow of coolant, the faster the better. This is the school of thought JT was following as he made his mods to his Pantera's cooling system. This is also the basis for the parts I've had custom built for my Pantera. Some of the re-engineering included in speeding up coolant flow are eliminating the swirl tank, eliminating sharp bends in the tubing, higher flow remote thermostat, higher flow coolant pumps, single pass radiators, larger tubes between the motor and radiator. In other words, some major reworking of the cooling system.

John also installed a de-gas tank (surge tank) and reworked the venting system to make it functional. This improvement is something anyone can do, regardless which school of thought they choose to follow, this is the improvement PLT-1 made to his Pantera. I highly recommend it.

Should you extensively modify the system like JT did, or optimize the system that's already there? Well, your Pantera will be more desirable when you decide to sell it if you optimize the oem system. Its also much easier to buy a few off-the-shelf parts and install them than to have parts custom made. A lot of owners are using their cars on track days and driving their cars around town in places like Phoenix Arizona with no problems at all, using an optimized oem cooling system. The guys who raced the Pantera at LeMans in 1972 and 1973 raced using the oem system, competing with 500 BHP motors and at 170 mph top speeds. For the majority of owners an optimized oem cooling system is all that will ever be necessary. My advice is to optimize the oem system, and only consider re-engineering it when the optimized oem system proves to be inadequate. A situation where an optimized oem system "may" be inadequate is open road racing in the higher speed classes on days when the temps hoover around 100 degrees F.

Anybody racing their Pantera needs a motor oil cooler and a transaxle oil cooler. This is where to spend your money first, before you do any re-engineering of the coolant system.

Whether or not to use a radiator shroud hinges simply upon how you intend to use the car. Most guys drive their cars on track days with shrouded Flex-A-Lite fan kits, no problems experienced. This is what you would call recreational track use, the car is basically a street car, and the shroud helps in those stop and go driving situations which occur much more often than the day or two each year the car is driven on a track. The guys involved in open road racing in the higher speed classes on days when the temps hoover around 100 degrees F will be better off without radiator shrouds. The more you set your car up for serious racing, the less "street friendly" your car is going to be, that's an unavoidable fact of life.

-G

That makes a lot of sense. I have reviewed all the prior posts I could find including yours. There is some great information to be gathered here on the boards; maybe to much. I like your idea of making the next upgrade an oil cooler. This is an area where I can see a potential for problems on track. My track days will be limited to lapping at local mid-west tracks. The longest and fastest is Road America, about four miles. Ive seen days at the track in the high 90's and right at 100 deg. It can get hot here in the summer.

My typical track car is a Cobra Mustang with vortech supercharger and suspension and brake upgrades. So I'm not completely new to cars that run hot. I just am new at running the Pantera on track. But it will be fun to learn.

As for the current system I am taking your advise and replacing all the cooling tubes; although I have taken the old ones off and they look clear, it is one less thing to worry about down the road. I also replaced both tanks with stainless. I have discussed an option with the guys at Be Cool radiators wherein the shroud will be full with cut outs covered by plates that can be removed with a couple screws so the radiator will flow free for track events. I'll post pictures if it works out.

Snoopy, I modified the flex-A-light shroud with flaps.See previous post. Johnny

http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...200085035#1200085035

I saw your post and pics and that is why I am now looking into the flaps. Be Cool Radiators have an existing fan shroud that has flaps but I don't think they open as much or would be as functional as yours. Looks like you did a nice job on yours. I hope to do something similar.

quote:

I hope to do something similar.

While Johnny's flaps do allow air to pass through at speed, perhaps his initial problem was the closeness of the shroud to the core.

When the flex-a-lite is mounted directly to the rear of the core, air passing through the core into the shroud area has VERY little turning room. It hits the back of the shroud after maybe just 3/4" of travel. sort of like that air hitting a brick wall. NOT conducive to good flow.

Nancy Haney of PCNC added a metal shroud to her flex-a-lite fans that placed the fans about 2" further from the core. Now that air has nearly 3" of wiggle room, which surely allows a more unrestricted flow.

Jack DeRyke (Bosswrench, and Nancy's father-in-law) took it one step further and made his from aluminum and built a wooden buck to hammer-form the corners from a squared-off corner at the core to the rounded corner of the shroud. Jack never keeps things simple.

Larry

Here's a shot of Nancy's

Here is Jack"s.

Are there any considerations for electrolysis of using an aluminum radiator? I mean, will the aluminum be eaten up unless an anode is used somewhere? What does BeCool say about that?

I have also heard of a new type of tube in a radiator that has a swirling effect built into the inside of the tube that swirls the coolant as it travels through the tube. It is a new development that is supposed to be a lot more efficient. Wilkinson is working on this one for my car.

Mark

quote:

will the aluminum be eaten up unless an anode is used somewhere

I just covered this in a phone call with Bill at Ron Davis radiators; my new Davis 3-pass arrived this week and I wanted to be clear about this, too.

The literature with the new radiator said to NOT use any brass fittings. Wellll, Pantera temp sensors are brass, the drain petcock on the previous radiator was brass, as was the air-bleed fitting at the top of the radiator.

Bill said they have not had the brass temp sensors cause any problems in Pantera radiators. They are in effect electrically isolated from the chassis ground. Just a switch in a brass case; not a grounded wire. When I pushed him on this, and the other brass fittings that had been on my previous unit, he said if an electrolysis problem was brewing, I would have found a black coating on the nearby aluminum. I did not.

There is no problem with using an anode, but with an ungrounded radiator and based on my experience with potential-problem brass fittings, electrolysis in not a real threat.

You can do a voltmeter test to determine if a potentially damaging current is present in your system. And the Davis literature gives instructions for doing such a test.

They did in fact include aluminum plugs for both those holes, and I guess their standard advice is to use them rather than leave a brass petcock in place; which seems pretty silly, to me.

He went on to say that an aluminum radiator should be totally removed from any contact with the steel structure of the car. Rubber bushings at all points, and this is stock for a Pantera, must be maintained.

So I intend to continue using brass, will not be placing an anode, and expect no problems.

quote:

Wilkinson is working on this one for my car.

Mark, if you keep having Steve reinvent everything for your car, you will never have the joy of actually driving it and the rest of us will never have the opportunity of appreciating it.

A good aluminum unit will cool your car just fine. Feel free to just tell us the tubes are super-new, throw-down high-tech and let Steve finish the build.

Larry

DeMopuar wrote:
Are there any considerations for electrolysis of using an aluminum radiator? I mean, will the aluminum be eaten up unless an anode is used somewhere? What does BeCool say about that?

The guys at Be Cool agree with Bill at Ron Davis Radiators. There is no concern with brass and aluminum in this configuration.

DeMopuar wrote:
I have also heard of a new type of tube in a radiator that has a swirling effect built into the inside of the tube that swirls the coolant as it travels through the tube. It is a new development that is supposed to be a lot more efficient.

Guys at Be Cool Radiators said you are most likely referring to a fluted oval tube design. It creates turbulence in the coolant so it is all exposed to the cooling fin. They have been using fluted core design for several years now.

Don't want to hijack this thread, but I've got to be clear that Steve came to me on the radiator, at least this time. Come to think of it, he also said a Ford GT drivetrain would be incredible and could be done; and I have been patient ever since. Besides, with all of the communication technology now, it should not be too much of an issue to get problems solved in a timely manner.

I like reading about everyone's issues with the cooling system -- so Larry, the radiator needs to be isolated from the body with rubber, but isn't the water based coolant a conductor -- is this an issue or am I missing what you wrote on this tiny screen?

Thanks, Mark

quote:

isn't the water based coolant a conductor

Mark, I've wondered the same thing.

I guess there is an acceptable limit, thus the voltmeter test?

Larry

The Corvette guys have been running aluminum radiators as well as engines and heads sine the '80s. One 'Vette shop says to take a GOOD VOM, switch it to the lowest current the meter will read, stick one probe in the coolant while grounding the other. If your meter reads above 70 millivolts, you have a problem. I tried this on our '72 with aluminum heads & water pump & Fluidyne rad. With a cheap VOM, the needle only flickered. With a $250 Fluke VOM, I got 37 millivolts- in safe zone.
Second game you can try is, once you succesfully get a reading, start switching on some electical stuff with it still connected to the coolant. If the meter reading changes, you have a grounding problem and it very likely won't be the radiator or its thermoswitches. You can start intelligently chasing a bad ground in your wiring, but at least you'll know which circuit(s) causing the problem. I've seen grounding problems so bad, the oil pressure reading changes on a running engine when the headlights are turned on!
Finally, use No-Rosion in your coolant if your local water is very hard. Adding distilled water is a mistake IMHO since distilled water is almost as acidic as Pepsi. Deionized (DI) water is better. Any doubts, get some pH strips from a swimming-pool supply house and check your local water and whats in your radiator for acidity (or lack of same). One East Coast guy DISSOLVED two Fluidynes (full warranty from a Pantera vendor) in a year, before Fluidyne figured out what the problem was. Good thing he didn't get his rad from Cheapo Mail-order, Inc....

I'm a little confused about the concern over using aluminum in the cooling system. Aren't most new cars and trucks using aluminum radiators? I know they are using aluminum engine blocks, heads, intake etc. Also doesn't the coolant protect the system from corrosion. That's why we need to make sure we use the correct coolant right?