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Oil, hmmmm, slippery subject.

Actually, the Cleveland was spec'd with 20W40!

I covered the topic of oil over a year ago (2004), its actually an involved topic, But I'll go along with Bob's recommendation if it will save me a lot of typing at 2 AM.

Folks living in warmer climates can run 20W50 all year 'round.

good night!
Well for my brand spanking new Cleveland motor it was broken in with 30W. I drove it for 500 miles that way. I was going to put synthetic in but LPB said it was probably better to wait just a bit, so I had them put in Castorol GTX 50W. It is what the little red book says to put in, the tag inside the front trunk says the same thing. 50W. Now I think the reason for this is the Pantera is meant to run at a higher engine temperature. Now I know most will think that I am full of crap, but that is my story and I am sticking to it.
You all do realize that there is no engine that requires heavier then a 30?
I don't know any good reason to run a strait 50.
A 50 will give you a higher oil pressure reading on the gauge particularly hot at idle.
A 20 winter weight is thick enough in the severe cujd to cause scratching of the cylinder walls and scuffing of the bearings particularly if the engine hasn't been run for awhile.
I would think that one would give away about the same amount of HP due to drag running 20-50 as gained using synthetic 10-30.
There is HP to be gained by running it you know.
For an engine that lays for long periods of time between running, like many Panteras, synthetic would be the way to go.
You want to seat the rings before you run synthetic. That stuff is so slick that it will delay it.
Actually if the engine is built correctly, The rings will seat within the first five minutes of running.
You run the engine 500 miles to make sure that all of the assembly lube is washed off of the parts, not to seat the rings.
Last edited by panteradoug
I could be wrong but the only motor I ever seen recommend STRAIGHT 30 or 50 motor oil was a welding machine. isnt it missing the cleaning properties or some thing like that.

So if you break in the motor with 10W30 its possible to switch to SYNTHETIC no problem.

Coincidently, when I switched to SYNTHETIC in my 351C a piece of permatex used as thread sealer on the oil pick up came loose and jambed the pump. Not 100% sure but I have my theory to why. The other why is WHY someone would put thread sealer inside a feamle thread. In my case it hardened and over time or CHANGING to a defferent oil made it come loose.

Whats the properties that synthetic has besides not breaking down with heat ?

Ron
quote:
Originally posted by accobra:
I could be wrong but the only motor I ever seen recommend STRAIGHT 30 or 50 motor oil was a welding machine. isnt it missing the cleaning properties or some thing like that.

So if you break in the motor with 10W30 its possible to switch to SYNTHETIC no problem.

Coincidently, when I switched to SYNTHETIC in my 351C a piece of permatex used as thread sealer on the oil pick up came loose and jambed the pump. Not 100% sure but I have my theory to why. The other why is WHY someone would put thread sealer inside a feamle thread. In my case it hardened and over time or CHANGING to a defferent oil made it come loose.

Whats the properties that synthetic has besides not breaking down with heat ?

Ron


One of the racing recommendations on the C way back was to braze the oil pick-up to the pump. I think the design has inherent problems such as vibrating loose and rotating away from the oil?

Race cars use strait weight oil. Multi is considered not good.
The polymers in the multi break down under load and you wind up with a 10 wt oil.
In drag racing, the oil pressure will go from 100 at the line to 10 when you roll back into the pits. That's not considered good.

The weight has nothing to do with the detergents or other addatives. That is the blend. Every manufacturer has it's own blend. The industry standardizes the grades. LSMFT. Less smoke more fine tobacco.
In the old days we used Penn State because it was from Pennsylvania grade crude. That was the best natural oil known.

Everything today is a blend of something and something. No more Penn grade.

Synthetic doesn't break down. Natural oils do.
Synthetic is much slicker. Synthetic sticks to the parts.
Shall I go on?
Experience tells me, when the issue of oil comes up, and information is provided, a dozen other questions follow, so before we get too far into this, how about reading the following topic from 2004 first?

http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6450045562/m/7600094143/p/1

Ron, break in with Castrol 10W30 or 20W50 depending upon the temp outdoors, run 500 miles, switch to Mobil 1.

your friend on the DTBB
Ron,

the other day I made an oil recommendation to you on the BB without asking what sort of cam you are running. This is an oversight on my part. My recommendation is good for a roller cam. However, for a flat tappet cam it is not.

Modern oils for gasoline engines do not contain ZDDP, an anti-scuff agent, because it shortens the life of catalytic converters. There's a greater chance of ruining a flat tappet cam lobe, especially during break in in the absence of ZDDP. Additives containing ZDDP are available . For a flat tappet cam my recommendation is to break in with Castrol, but add a can of EOS available from GM, or a can of Bardahl 1, both high in ZDDP. After 500 miles, run Mobil 1 again with a can of EOS or Bardahl 1 added.

Oil for deisel engines still contain ZDDP. So as an alternative, you could elect to use a Deisel oil, such as Delvac for break in, and after break in use Delvac 1, which is the deisel equivalent of Mobil 1.

My preference would be to use the oil designed for gasoline engines, supplemented with the can of ZDDP additive.

your friend on the DTBB
From the DeTomaso BB:
I had an auto repair shop in Houston, Texas, which happens to be the
petrochemical capital of the world. I have had many conversations with
Chemical engineers at oil companies as well as Forensic Chemists at analysis
laboratories. I also performed EPA and DOT conversions on European Gray
market cars in the 80's. These cars had to pass rigid emission testing at
federally approved testing labs. I have also spoken with automotive
engineers for Ford and Chevrolet. So forgive me for being soooooooo
opinionated about this subject matter.

There are two schools of thought regarding multi-grade motor oils.

First school says, multi grades make engines last longer because they
circulate quicker at start-up when most of the engine wear takes place.

Second school says, straight grades make engines last longer because they
have better shear characteristics and do a better job of lubricating the
rings, which makes them last longer.

Both of these schools have error in thought and implementation and don't
address all of the aspects of the oil.

I maintain a third school of thought, which says a clean engine is a happy
engine.

I use Delo 400 30W by Chevron. It has all of the ratings including diesel,
gas, and turbo. This motor oil is not advertised at racetracks and other
than truckers; nobody knows what the hell it is. According to the engineers
at Chevron, Delo has the highest level of detergents and dispersants of any
motor oil. This means it will keep a motor clean and/or clean a dirty motor.
18-wheelers that have diesel engines with turbochargers and superchargers
use this oil.

So here is the poop. Multi grade motor oils are made from low grade crude.
The are man-made molecules created in a cat-cracker, short for catalytic
cracker - a chemical reactor for converting oils with high boiling points
into fuels with lower boiling points in the presence of a catalyst. These
manmade molecules break down faster and create more deposits than the
molecules found in straight grade motor oil. Straight grade motor oil is
made from premium crude, which is expensive and sometimes in short supply.
For the reason just stated, oil companies love multi-grades because they can
be made from junk and they are a value added product.

Automakers began to use multi-grade motor oils because of ever-tightening
emission standards. The automotive engineers determined that the thin
multi-grade motor oils sealed the rings better during cold starts and
therefore caused fewer emissions. For those of you that are familiar, the
entire focus these days on emissions, are concerned with the first five
minutes of cold start, because that is about the only area of radical
improvement that can be made. That is why preheated oxygen sensors were
developed and why they are trying to develop preheated catalysts for the
exhaust. Well, the EPA, in their infinite wisdom, told the manufactures if
they wanted to use multi-grade motor oils to pass the emission testing, that
they would have to recommend the usage of multi-grades all the time. Hence
the beginning of the oil recommendations we see today. As you may have
noticed, over time the recommendations have gone from 20-50 to 10-40 to
5-30. The trend is due to the ever-tightening EPA requirements. When the
automakers need to make cleaner tail pipe emissions, for the next belt
tightening, they just recommend thinner oil. About this time you should be
feeling like a fool!!

I experimented with this while attempting to pass European Gray market cars
through the EPA labs, and found this to be true. Pipe up out there if you
are an automotive engineer of a petrochemical engineer of automotive
products.

I bought a 1988 Sea Ray in 1988. The boat had a 260 HP Chevrolet 350 cid
motor. I did not trust the boat dealership and wanted to service my boat
myself. I owned a repair shop and was completely capable and competent. I
also wanted to maintain my warranty with the boat dealer, just in case.
After performing my first oil change, I stopped at the dealer and informed
them of my oil change and provided them with the receipt from their parts
department for the filter. They said that there is no oil on this receipt.
What kind of oil did you use? I told them Delo 400 30W by Chevron. They
said good, you didn't use a multi-grade motor oil. If you had used a multi
grade, we would have to cancel your engine warranty. You see, there are no
emission requirements on boats!

You mentioned the word "cling" in your description of synthetics. The most
"clingy" oils are the ones with a high paraffin content (wax), which
historically are the Pennsylvania crudes. As evidence, have you ever
noticed on the old Pennzoil commercials, how they always use a farmer to
talk about how well the oil works in his tractor? Well, there is a damn
good reason for that! Tractors are not operated everyday. They sometimes
sit for long periods of time without usage. Then when they are started,
there can have an exaggerated amount of crank bearing wear due to the oil
running off during storage. Pennzoil would leave a waxy residue that would
help lubricate the bearings until the oil flow began. Their best spokesman
would have to be a person who is cheap, and leaves their engines idle for
long periods, like a farmer!

Although this above characterization also sounds like a classic car buff or
a Pantera owner, I would not recommend high paraffin crudes. They suffer
from the same problem as multi-grades, they break down faster and leave more
deposits (waxy looking deposits).

Synthetics were developed for jet aircraft turbine engines. In the early
days of turbine engines, the motor oil would break down and leave deposits
and cause engine damage, which would crash the plane. Synthetics allowed
higher operating temperatures with almost no breakdown (visualize the
synthetic oil commercial where they fry conventional oil in a pan and then
scrape the deposits with a spatula). However, in jet engines, the oil does
not seal the combustion chamber like in a car engine. In the early
marketing days of synthetic motor oil marketing, the salesman said you could
leave the oil in the car for 50,000 miles, just change the filter once or
twice in this period and it will be fine. They used to sell special filter
brackets that held two filters and it was bolted to a fender or something.
Well, the engineers and salesman were only considering the breakdown aspect
of the oil, not the accumulation of combustion acids. Synthetics are the
best, but must be changed as frequently at regular motor oil to prevent
combustion acid damage.

There are some cars that are so hot that they have to run synthetics or
engine deposits will form and cause engine damage even at 3000 mile oil
change intervals. The new aluminum engine corvettes are a good example of
this trend. High output motors that generate a lot of heat or that are
operated in high RPM conditions like boats, Panteras, turbine engines, etc.

Slow warm up periods also add a lot of combustion acids to the oil and can
be more harmful than driving cold. Driving forces the engine to warm up
faster and changes the combustion chamber temperature and chemistry. So my
recommendation on oil, Delo 400 30W by Chevron or Synthetic oil changed
frequently. Warm up a little, but not a lot. Start the car and use it
rather than allowing long periods of inactivity.

With a bottomless budget, use straight 30W or a heavy synthetic like 20-50W,
use an oil preheater and an electric oil pump to circulate low pressure oil
in the engine before cranking (like a turbine engine). Change the oil
before it discolors or every 3000 miles (or 3 months if it sits a lot). Use
multi grades in cold climates where 20 degree F or below start-ups are
expected. Cold climate is about the only really good use for multi-grades.
Synthetic multi-grades do not suffer from the same problems as natural crude
multi-grades. They are made multi-grade because of the manufacturer
requirements, which are EPA requirements. OMG, Spark plugs I will let
someone else explain.

Richard Schulze, P. E.
quote:
Originally posted by Matt_M:
The guy who built my engine, Russ Fulp, recommended that I avoid synthetic oil. Therefore, I remain a committed consumer of Chevron Delo 400 straight 30W since first reading Richard Schultze's compelling argument (reprinted above) two years ago.

Matt Merritt
#2171


Like the barkeep says, "pick your poison stranger"
Amazing isn't it?? After all your car will run just fine without any oil at all. At least for awhile. Then you have superduty formulations that are used in exotic, high tech space crafty stuff, that will let an engine run at tens of thousands of RPM. What you want is something in between. Smiler
Oil is not a mysterious subject. Nor is there a need to be religious, you know, having a belief system. Just the facts ma'am.

Richard S. is a scientist, I respect his knowledge, I don't off hand find anything in the info Mark posted that I could argue. I especially agree with him that the idea of extended change intervals with synthetic oil is wrong. And even though the write up Mark shared with us is a long one, it barely scratches the surface of the topic of lubrication. Which is why I've been hands off here, I guess I don't want to get into a situation where I needed to type a long post. I have other priorities this week. The Chevron Delo stuff I'm sure is good mineral oil. If it has ZDDP content, it may make good break in oil. Or a good recommendation for a high mileage motor. But in this day and age there just isn't even a contest between mineral oils & the better synthetics. The race isn't even close.

The auto industry conducts tests. In the automotive world (as opposed to aeronautic), the "pure" synthetics are superior to mineral oil based lubricants due to their superior high temp oxidation resistance, high film strength, very low tendency to form deposits, stable viscosity of the base and low temp flow characteristics. There are ways to measure these properties and make comparisons. Amsoil, Mobil 1 & Spectro are the synthetic oils normally given the highest ratings in these areas. Mobil 1 is the value leader of that group.

One subject I want to touch on is the viscosity issue. Straight 30 weight oil is a good recommendation in Texas, here in So Cal where I live too. But not for someone living in Minnesota, or New York. And if you are going to race a motor, using mineral oil (why?) then by all means, run a single weight type oil, like 30 weight. There is nothing to fear about multi-viscosity oil, as long as you understand the nature of those oils. Yes the viscosity enhancers do break down with use, and yes the molecule will have less shear strength than those of the single weight oils because they are made from cheaper crude. But if an owner is going to run a multi-viscosity mineral oil then by checking the oil periodically they can determine at what point the oil begins to change color, and at what point it loses its "tackiness", and thereby determine at what intervals the multi-viscosity oil should be changed in that particular motor. Its not the end of the world or anything, a motor can operate a long time and remain in good shape on multi-viscosity mineral oil, if it is changed at the proper intervals.

However if you run synthetics, it pretty much becomes a non issue again. The synthetics run circles around the mineral oils in terms of viscosity stability. In fact, Amsoil manufactures an automotive oil, rated 20W50, that has NO viscosity enhancers in it, it is naturally 20W 50, its a very bitchen oil, but expensive.

your slippery friend on the DTBB
quote:
Originally posted by Husker:

Synthetics were developed for jet aircraft turbine engines. In the early
days of turbine engines, the motor oil would break down and leave deposits
and cause engine damage, which would crash the plane. Synthetics allowed
higher operating temperatures with almost no breakdown (visualize the
synthetic oil commercial where they fry conventional oil in a pan and then
scrape the deposits with a spatula). However, in jet engines, the oil does
not seal the combustion chamber like in a car engine.


90% of what you read about Synthetics is sourced from the companies selling synthetics. There are some drawbacks to synthetics. True they were developed for aircraft and in fact I run it in my turbine aircraft. They were put into use in piston aircraft (pure synthetics) and soon found engines and props could not make it to TBO. Variable pitch props as well as engines were slugging up and failing early. There were a couple big lawsuits and the oil companies lost. There is no limitation against pure synthetics in the “Piston” airplane industry but everything marked now is a blend.

The problem is the airplanes still use leaded fuel and the synthetics could not break down the lead; it turned to sludge. Since we don’t have lead in car fuel anymore it’s not as big an issue but I see it as no more better oil then the additives. My brother running his cobra on a track changed to synthetic and lost the bearings before the end of the event. Swapped the bearings, returned to dino oil and put another 20K hard miles on the engine. He attributed the bearing loss to the low adhesion of synthetics and the lack of racing type additives which protect the bearings in hard cornering and temporary oil loss. There have also been reports of much more rust in the top half of engines; especially during storage where the synthetic simply does not adhere to the steel as well. Maybe it’s “too slippery”. Either way I find 90% or more of the info related to synthetics generated by the companies directly, indirectly, or regurgitated.

The biggest problems with wide viscosity oils is that it takes a lot of additives to do this….which means less oil. Wide band oils are known to have less oil content and do not work as well overall.

Lastly, different oils have different detergents and additives. The best thing you can do is chose an oil (synthetic or not) and stick with it. Changing your oil means you may be changing the chemistry enough to break up particles which were otherwise set. One oil creates one type of deposits while another oil can break those up and send them through your system.

Gary
I have experience with synthetic motor oils for gasoline engines dating back to the '70s, I have seen the insides of dozens of motors fed a diet of synthetic motor oil. That's why I have run them in all my personal vehicles, and recommended them to freinds, family & customers since the '80s.

The most compelling reason I choose to run the synthetic oil is that there is no coke build up in the piston ring grooves, but the fact that it is hard to find wear anywhere in the motor is an added bonus. I certainly wouldn't spend the extra money on synthetic oil if there were no tangible benefit. I have never seen rust, but I can't recall if any motor could be described as having sat for long periods of none use.

Your friend on the DTBB

my last post on the subject
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