I forget the name of the place but they are in Amberley cresent dandenong. they have done heaps of custom springs for me in the past, they can help you.
She lives:
Attachments
Images (1)
After nearly 8 months off the road for a suspension / axle rebuild, today she hit the deck again. Fired up fine and went out for a spin. Needs a wheel alignment. I checked the toe and found 16mm toe in!! Previous owner had been driving it around like this!
I set it to 3mm (1/8") but will need a shop to do castor/camber to front and rear.
I set it to 3mm (1/8") but will need a shop to do castor/camber to front and rear.
Attachments
Images (1)
Mike's height adjustment tips cost me four hours today. It's a serious time consuming job setting the heights perfectly on the coilovers but in the end I think I achieved a nice slight nose down attitude with good tyre clearance and ended up with 130mm under the front jacking points to ground and the base of the doors 1/8" from dead level.
Attachments
Images (1)
The car still porpoises a bit and probably needs additional rebound adjustment but I can get to this once the wheel alignment is sorted.
Attachments
Images (1)
Great news!!! Not sure, but what you might be feeling is the slight vertical movement or bounce you get because of mid engine balance and the forward seating position. All Panteras have it.
Mike
Mike
Robert, the car looks and sits great. It's lots of work adjusting, but after you've done it you now get paid back every time you look at the car. Great photos too!
Mark
Mark
quote:I have half of it. I managed to spread it enough to get over the main connecting rod and got it off. Confirmed that it has broken in the centre.
Found this picture and wih my half a spring shop could possibly make it.
Robert,
My clutch spring is broken (has been forever), as it is on several cars I know of. It is not fun to replace and I suggest you let others chime in with opinions before you try to replace it. I do not think it can be done in the car even if you are a pint-sized contortionist, which you probably aren't.
Mark
quote:My clutch spring is broken (has been forever), as it is on several cars I know of. It is not fun to replace and I suggest you let others chime in with opinions before you try to replace it. I do not think it can be done in the car even if you are a pint-sized contortionist, which you probably aren't.
Kirk Evans also suggested that I leave it out. He reckons that I could go through hell fitting another one and it will break in a couple of weeks. Drivng it yesterday it felt fine so I think I'll leave it.
quote:Originally posted by OzGT5:quote:The other thing to consider about the overall stance is that the top of the door (below the window frame) is not parallel with the bottom of the pitch weld. It angles up toward the front of the car, so the car will look like it is running up hill if the pinch weld is parallel to the ground. From my measurements and calculations a 1” difference between the front and back pinch weld equals 1 degree. Mine is a tad over 3/8” lower in front or .375+ degrees nose down. That stance puts the top of the door just very slightly lower in the front in relation to the ground.
Thanks Mike. By the door pinchweld, I take it you mean the one along the bottom of the door opening. Do you just lay a 3' level along there on flat ground and you set yours 3/8" lower at the front of the door opening? Over the length of the car this must relay to a lot lower at the front?
Quite difficult to set these cars to a 'proper' height as there really isn't any common points as the cars vary so much due to wheels / tyres / spoliers / body kits etc.
The pinch weld is the part at the very bottom of the rocker panels where the outside one is joined with the center and inside rocker. There are spot welds along the entire length and water drain slots. The measurement is taken at the back in front of the wheel and at the front behind the wheel. Your car has running boards so it would be in behind them. The lower edge of my back pinch weld is about 6” from the ground and the front is a tad less than 5 5/8”. The lowest point on my car is a shade over 3 ½” and that point is the bottom edge for the frame rails and slightly in front of the engine. That stance puts the back lower A arms close to parallel with the ground but just a very, very slight downward angle.
I would be interested in your pinch weld measurements to the ground in inches.
Mike
Robert and Mark,
The clutch pedal spring can be replaced without removing the pedal assembly from the car. I think that I understand how it's done (kind of hard to explain), but I have not tried it yet.
Last year, "Rick" (from AZ) posted this:
"And that's the same spring I'm referring to. Under the dash, laying on his back, used wire snips to remove the old one, then somehow screwed on the new spring. All done in place in the car. I know he's repeated this little trick on a couple of other cars in the club too. End result is the stock clutch pedal return spring replaced and looking like new again in just a few minutes".
John
The clutch pedal spring can be replaced without removing the pedal assembly from the car. I think that I understand how it's done (kind of hard to explain), but I have not tried it yet.
Last year, "Rick" (from AZ) posted this:
"And that's the same spring I'm referring to. Under the dash, laying on his back, used wire snips to remove the old one, then somehow screwed on the new spring. All done in place in the car. I know he's repeated this little trick on a couple of other cars in the club too. End result is the stock clutch pedal return spring replaced and looking like new again in just a few minutes".
John
Thanks John,
What a nightmare job. That shaft is preety big and trying to open the sping enough to 'wind' it on seems near impossible.
That bloke must have been both tiny and strong!
What a nightmare job. That shaft is preety big and trying to open the sping enough to 'wind' it on seems near impossible.
That bloke must have been both tiny and strong!
His daytime job is fixing office equipment so he's got lots of practice working in tight spaces! Let the puns begin...
Rick,
I left that comment out for obvious reasons!
John
I left that comment out for obvious reasons!
John
Mike, I reckon it might be best to measure my car at the front and rear jacking points where the round holes are. These are pretty easy to get to and give a nice place to measure from.
What do you think?
What do you think?
Something is wrong. Who is the forum administrator? I've been trying to post pictures for Jack and Mike but for some odd reason I can't post pictures anymore and in some theread's where I've posted images, they have gone now.
Can anyone tell me what's going on or how I contact the forum admin?
Can anyone tell me what's going on or how I contact the forum admin?
Attachments
Images (1)
Jack, I posted images of the underside front of my car here:
http://panteraaustralia.com/fo...l?1287309452#POST220
http://panteraaustralia.com/fo...l?1287309452#POST220
Well after an interesting week sorting out earths and failing ignition, today I finally got the car to the wheel alignment after replacing all of the suspension and other works.
The car had 16mm of toe in, so previous owner in Boston had no idea. The rack needed to be centred and once that was done we set it to 3mm toe in on the front and 4mm on the rear. Castor ended up at 4'30" on the left and 4'25" on the right. Camber -00 43' left and -00 45' right.
Springs are a bit stiff and even the new Alden's can't control them enough so I may have to look at revising the spring rates.
BUT:
Apart from a few trips down the shops or to repair places, I've never really driven it. So tonight when the good lady wife got home, we jumped in and did 162 miles through the hills on the outskirts of Melbourne.
Quite a bit of bump steer on bad holes, and not overly precise steering with those 11" front wheels and 275 tyres, but the car is actually pretty nice to drive.
No Testarossa mind you, but I was pleasantly suprised. So nice to finally reap the fruits of the labour after over a year of working on it.
I reckon Bob would be pretty happy with it, and sad he sold it if he drove it now.
The car had 16mm of toe in, so previous owner in Boston had no idea. The rack needed to be centred and once that was done we set it to 3mm toe in on the front and 4mm on the rear. Castor ended up at 4'30" on the left and 4'25" on the right. Camber -00 43' left and -00 45' right.
Springs are a bit stiff and even the new Alden's can't control them enough so I may have to look at revising the spring rates.
BUT:
Apart from a few trips down the shops or to repair places, I've never really driven it. So tonight when the good lady wife got home, we jumped in and did 162 miles through the hills on the outskirts of Melbourne.
Quite a bit of bump steer on bad holes, and not overly precise steering with those 11" front wheels and 275 tyres, but the car is actually pretty nice to drive.
No Testarossa mind you, but I was pleasantly suprised. So nice to finally reap the fruits of the labour after over a year of working on it.
I reckon Bob would be pretty happy with it, and sad he sold it if he drove it now.
Great news that you are on the road! I went for 450# springs on the front and 550# on the back of my car. Of course it rides a bit stiffer than stock but overall I like it. The yellow Konis seem to work well with the spring rates. Do you know what spring rates you have? The founder of a shock company that has done a lot of work with Panteras told me that the stock springs are way too weak.
Did adding a lot of caster cause any clearance problems with the back side of your tires, windshield wiper motor cover, etc.?
Our roads are pretty smooth in the Atlanta area so I haven’t noticed much bump steer but with the 245/45ZR16s I’m running (narrow compared to yours) they tend to follow ruts in the backtop like you find in high traffic areas at some stop lights.
Mike
Did adding a lot of caster cause any clearance problems with the back side of your tires, windshield wiper motor cover, etc.?
Our roads are pretty smooth in the Atlanta area so I haven’t noticed much bump steer but with the 245/45ZR16s I’m running (narrow compared to yours) they tend to follow ruts in the backtop like you find in high traffic areas at some stop lights.
Mike
Wanna go further towards good handling, OZ?
1)- two 5/16" thick flat bars between the rack and the trunk floor mounts removes most of the bump steer. You can just slip them in (with longer bolts) or, by cutting down the tops of the split clamps in the areas that touch the bolt heads (that mount the rack) by 5/16", you avoid needing longer rack mounting bolts. If your car has the late rack-brace between the rack & right side subframe, the cuts avoid needing to redrill two extra holes in the frame.
2)- add polyurethane bushings to the front a-arms. These tighten up the handling with no extra noise inside, and if you order offset flanges on your bushings, it adds to the max caster possible and vastly reduces tramlining on crowned or rough roads. Offset upper bushings add an extra 1-1/2 degrees negative caster for -4 degree total per side. Even more (to 6 or 7 degrees!) is possible by also using offset bushings in the lower a-arms (biased in the opposite direction), but remember, steering effort goes up with extra caster.
3)- gas-charged Konis can be mounted upside-down for a little bit less unsprung weight, with no downside to this positioning. Set the car with the nose down a little (2 degrees is enough) for better high speed stability.
4)- a 7/8" rear anti-swaybar will reduce the car's understeer. I recommend using polyurethane bushings on the center mounts and sphere-balls on the ends. The stock front bar size is fine- also with poly center bushings and sphere-balls.
5)- add a square-bar brace with a clevis across the bellhousing, to replace the non-adjustable stock one. This doesn't help handling much but does help prevent paint (and sheet metal!) cracking from rear body flex with giant tires. Be sure you choose a bar that has long enough ends to jam firmly into the back of the stock bar mounts; this allows the whole weldment to take cornering loads instead of trying to deliver them through thin sheet metal tabs with slotted holes.
There's more that can be done, but that should get you started. And you can do it all yourself with hand tools, and it's all reversable if by chance you don't like the results.
Note- all this assumes a completely stock suspension; you may already have some of this stuff on board. And wheel alignment should be checked if by chance you do the changes piecemeal. Let us know what you think of your improved handling. You'll be ready for Bathurst in 2011!
1)- two 5/16" thick flat bars between the rack and the trunk floor mounts removes most of the bump steer. You can just slip them in (with longer bolts) or, by cutting down the tops of the split clamps in the areas that touch the bolt heads (that mount the rack) by 5/16", you avoid needing longer rack mounting bolts. If your car has the late rack-brace between the rack & right side subframe, the cuts avoid needing to redrill two extra holes in the frame.
2)- add polyurethane bushings to the front a-arms. These tighten up the handling with no extra noise inside, and if you order offset flanges on your bushings, it adds to the max caster possible and vastly reduces tramlining on crowned or rough roads. Offset upper bushings add an extra 1-1/2 degrees negative caster for -4 degree total per side. Even more (to 6 or 7 degrees!) is possible by also using offset bushings in the lower a-arms (biased in the opposite direction), but remember, steering effort goes up with extra caster.
3)- gas-charged Konis can be mounted upside-down for a little bit less unsprung weight, with no downside to this positioning. Set the car with the nose down a little (2 degrees is enough) for better high speed stability.
4)- a 7/8" rear anti-swaybar will reduce the car's understeer. I recommend using polyurethane bushings on the center mounts and sphere-balls on the ends. The stock front bar size is fine- also with poly center bushings and sphere-balls.
5)- add a square-bar brace with a clevis across the bellhousing, to replace the non-adjustable stock one. This doesn't help handling much but does help prevent paint (and sheet metal!) cracking from rear body flex with giant tires. Be sure you choose a bar that has long enough ends to jam firmly into the back of the stock bar mounts; this allows the whole weldment to take cornering loads instead of trying to deliver them through thin sheet metal tabs with slotted holes.
There's more that can be done, but that should get you started. And you can do it all yourself with hand tools, and it's all reversable if by chance you don't like the results.
Note- all this assumes a completely stock suspension; you may already have some of this stuff on board. And wheel alignment should be checked if by chance you do the changes piecemeal. Let us know what you think of your improved handling. You'll be ready for Bathurst in 2011!
quote:1)- two 5/16" thick flat bars between the rack and the trunk floor mounts removes most of the bump steer. You can just slip them in (with longer bolts) or, by cutting down the tops of the split clamps in the areas that touch the bolt heads (that mount the rack) by 5/16", you avoid needing longer rack mounting bolts. If your car has the late rack-brace between the rack & right side subframe, the cuts avoid needing to redrill two extra holes in the frame.
Can you post a picture of this mod in the quote above?
You mention there is a "late rack-brace"? What was the cutoff of cars that got that mod vs. not.
Is Marino the only vendor that has the offset poly bushings? I've contacted two in SoCal and neither have them?
Who sells the phere balls?
Thanks as always!
Mike you are the BEST!!!!! Just can't say enough about people like you that continually contribute to help others. But your website obviously goes way beyond the call of duty. What a resource. THANKS AGAIN!
quote:Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Wanna go further towards good handling, OZ?
1)- two 5/16" thick flat bars between the rack and the trunk floor mounts removes most of the bump steer. You can just slip them in (with longer bolts) or, by cutting down the tops of the split clamps in the areas that touch the bolt heads (that mount the rack) by 5/16", you avoid needing longer rack mounting bolts. If your car has the late rack-brace between the rack & right side subframe, the cuts avoid needing to redrill two extra holes in the frame.
2)- add polyurethane bushings to the front a-arms. These tighten up the handling with no extra noise inside, and if you order offset flanges on your bushings, it adds to the max caster possible and vastly reduces tramlining on crowned or rough roads. Offset upper bushings add an extra 1-1/2 degrees negative caster for -4 degree total per side. Even more (to 6 or 7 degrees!) is possible by also using offset bushings in the lower a-arms (biased in the opposite direction), but remember, steering effort goes up with extra caster.
3)- gas-charged Konis can be mounted upside-down for a little bit less unsprung weight, with no downside to this positioning. Set the car with the nose down a little (2 degrees is enough) for better high speed stability.
4)- a 7/8" rear anti-swaybar will reduce the car's understeer. I recommend using polyurethane bushings on the center mounts and sphere-balls on the ends. The stock front bar size is fine- also with poly center bushings and sphere-balls.
5)- add a square-bar brace with a clevis across the bellhousing, to replace the non-adjustable stock one. This doesn't help handling much but does help prevent paint (and sheet metal!) cracking from rear body flex with giant tires. Be sure you choose a bar that has long enough ends to jam firmly into the back of the stock bar mounts; this allows the whole weldment to take cornering loads instead of trying to deliver them through thin sheet metal tabs with slotted holes.
There's more that can be done, but that should get you started. And you can do it all yourself with hand tools, and it's all reversable if by chance you don't like the results.
Note- all this assumes a completely stock suspension; you may already have some of this stuff on board. And wheel alignment should be checked if by chance you do the changes piecemeal. Let us know what you think of your improved handling. You'll be ready for Bathurst in 2011!
Whew, good list. Fortunately I'm nearly there.
I'm sure that the steering rack hasn't been modified and this has to go to top of the list. It's pretty savage at the moment and could catch you unawares on some of our roads, especially swerving to miss a kangaroo and copping a pothole.
I'll check out Mike's page for the pictures and come back to you with the results.
I have full new poly bushes in the car from Bob at Precision Proformance.
I did the Johnny Woods modification to the upper control arm and was really pleased with the castor I attained straight up from that modification. Also made camber adjustment easy thanks to the small bolt that pushes the ball joint and locks it into place.
I have a 7/8 sway bar with all new mounts, but it's not mounted with sphere balls. I need more understanding of this?
I have an adjustable square brace accross the rear. I adjusted it until I heard the smallest of creaks and then locked it off. I figure that way I know it isright at the tightest point where it will do the most good.
The springs are Front: 400 Rear: 650 with brand new fully rebuilt Alden Eagle shockers which they set up for road/targa use.
I'm running 12/12 rebound and 3/6 compression on the rear and 6/12 rebound and 3/6 compression on the front. To me the front springs seem too hard and occasionally you can hear the springs rattle in their seats when you hit a sharp bump. On smooth roads (freeways) it's fine, but it could be a little more comfortable on the back roads.
Excellent start!
Re- sphere balls: the angles the rear swaybar ends go through in driving on 'nomally' bumpy roads causes severe binding-up of the swaybar with poly bushings on the ends, because the poly is not resilent enough to accomodate such angles. The result is sometimes cracking of the steel bar mounts on the rear a-arms, or between the lower a-arm ends and the tubing. By adding a ball on the bar end, the bar doesn't bind up, and the driver can actually feel the bar working.
If you can't immediately afford sphere-balls (front & rear), use rubber bushings on the bar ends with poly in the middle, until you can buy some of the ball ends.
On adjusting the bay brace: if excess rear subframe collapse has occurred (2 or more degrees of negative rear camber beyond what stock shims can adjust), the brace can correct it, but not all at once. The trick is to lift the car and tighten the clevis as you did until you get that 'creak', then lock things down and drive the car normally for a few days. Then after the sheet-metal has 'adjusted' to its new position, retighten 1/2 turn more, lock the clevis and continue enjoying the car. Check periodically to see how the rear camber readjustment is progressing. Doing this gradually, most or all of the subframe sag can be worked out of most Panteras without damage. But try doing it all at once and the fenders will buckle.
On locking the front camber adjustment: there are various mechanisms to keep the camber adjustment where you set it, but the simplest is to make a set of 'filler pieces' the same shape as the space between the bolt shank as-adjusted, and the inboard end of the slot in the upper front a-arm. The little (4 per side) filler pieces will be captured between the washer on the adjusting bolts and the ball joint carrier. Due to the weight of the suspension and gravity, it seems the bolts will slide inboard quite easily but never seem to slide outward, so that makes it simple to block possible movement. I used 3/16" thick aluminum scrap, hand-filed to shape for my fillers, but steel would work too.
Re- sphere balls: the angles the rear swaybar ends go through in driving on 'nomally' bumpy roads causes severe binding-up of the swaybar with poly bushings on the ends, because the poly is not resilent enough to accomodate such angles. The result is sometimes cracking of the steel bar mounts on the rear a-arms, or between the lower a-arm ends and the tubing. By adding a ball on the bar end, the bar doesn't bind up, and the driver can actually feel the bar working.
If you can't immediately afford sphere-balls (front & rear), use rubber bushings on the bar ends with poly in the middle, until you can buy some of the ball ends.
On adjusting the bay brace: if excess rear subframe collapse has occurred (2 or more degrees of negative rear camber beyond what stock shims can adjust), the brace can correct it, but not all at once. The trick is to lift the car and tighten the clevis as you did until you get that 'creak', then lock things down and drive the car normally for a few days. Then after the sheet-metal has 'adjusted' to its new position, retighten 1/2 turn more, lock the clevis and continue enjoying the car. Check periodically to see how the rear camber readjustment is progressing. Doing this gradually, most or all of the subframe sag can be worked out of most Panteras without damage. But try doing it all at once and the fenders will buckle.
On locking the front camber adjustment: there are various mechanisms to keep the camber adjustment where you set it, but the simplest is to make a set of 'filler pieces' the same shape as the space between the bolt shank as-adjusted, and the inboard end of the slot in the upper front a-arm. The little (4 per side) filler pieces will be captured between the washer on the adjusting bolts and the ball joint carrier. Due to the weight of the suspension and gravity, it seems the bolts will slide inboard quite easily but never seem to slide outward, so that makes it simple to block possible movement. I used 3/16" thick aluminum scrap, hand-filed to shape for my fillers, but steel would work too.
Oops- I missed one: In the Cam Gears steering rack (if thats the one you're using; some RHD cars use different racks) the stock bushing is plastic, in a steel housing, with thin rubber lining the interface. They literally fall apart in 5-10,000 miles. Replace with bronze- but not oilite powdered bronze which also falls apart. If you have a local machinest make you a bushing, have him make it exactly 2X the stock length. This gives much more support and lifespan to the rack-gear and does not cause interference at full steering lock.
Second point: completely disassemble the rack to do this; the stock steel bushing jacket and washer do not easily come out and must be driven with a long punch. And once the rack-gear is out, dress the edges of the rack teeth with a fine file- the teeth wear a little and generate raised edges that will immediately ream out your new bronze bushing! All the U.S vendors now sell proper rack boots for the ends. A leaker will quickly wear out even a good bronze bushing.
Finally, the proper R & R of a Pantera steering rack is documented in Ford's Pantera Service Highlights (lite blue cover, printed in '72) available thru PI Motorsports or any other U.S. vendors. In it, they mention NOT using any kind of grease, but only 80W90 differential lube.
Second point: completely disassemble the rack to do this; the stock steel bushing jacket and washer do not easily come out and must be driven with a long punch. And once the rack-gear is out, dress the edges of the rack teeth with a fine file- the teeth wear a little and generate raised edges that will immediately ream out your new bronze bushing! All the U.S vendors now sell proper rack boots for the ends. A leaker will quickly wear out even a good bronze bushing.
Finally, the proper R & R of a Pantera steering rack is documented in Ford's Pantera Service Highlights (lite blue cover, printed in '72) available thru PI Motorsports or any other U.S. vendors. In it, they mention NOT using any kind of grease, but only 80W90 differential lube.
Sway bar sphere ball end.
John
John
Attachments
Images (1)
If you do install the sphere balls, check for clearance at the limits of suspension travel. In particular at the heads of the hold down bolts.
Jack, my car is still LHD as it was originally. I won't change it as we have a 30 year rule in Oz that we can drive LHD if the car is older than 30 years.
There is a spacer that I can see but I need to take a picture of the steering rack to see if this is factory or additional. Stand by!
There is a spacer that I can see but I need to take a picture of the steering rack to see if this is factory or additional. Stand by!
quote:Originally posted by jb1490:
Sway bar sphere ball end.
John
Who has those Sphere ends John? Are they a Hall / Wilkinson thing or only a specific vendor?
Are they available to suit different thickness bars?
quote:Who has those Sphere ends
Byars and Hall have them. I bought mine from Bob.
http://precisionproformance.com/sc1070.htm
quote:Are they available to suit different thickness bars?
I presume that they are. Mine are 7/8" front and rear.
John
Factory bump-steer rack spacers were stock on some '73 and most '74 Panteras, and I presume- later models too. They're shown in the '75 and later Illustrated Parts Lists. Note the bump steer will be different for every car on the road; the ideal amount of correction can be found only by experimentation, but most of it is removed with a 0.312" lowering of the rack body. There are other ways to get the same effect, too.
Early Hall sphere balls used regular hex-head bolts to hold the assemblies to the a-arm mounts, and those bolt heads got VERY close to the spinning u-joint ends on bumpy roads. A simple fix was to substitute flat-head allen bolts, countersunk into the aluminum top plates. Those now sold by other vendors (and maybe Hall, by this time) include countersunk bolts, so no clearance problems anymore. The earlier assemblies were bonded together but in later ones, the plastic balls are replaceable. So if you buy late assemblies, then decide to change swaybar sizes, you can just get the balls, saving you from extra expense for complete new assemblies or trying to machine out the balls.
If you really want to delve deeper into the handling possibilities of the Pantera, I did a 5-part series a few years ago in the POCA Newsletters, describing what's possible. Too long & too detailed for e-mail posts. By the way, I try all this stuff out on my wife's '72 for many miles & various speeds up to 150 before recommending anything as serious as steering mods.
Early Hall sphere balls used regular hex-head bolts to hold the assemblies to the a-arm mounts, and those bolt heads got VERY close to the spinning u-joint ends on bumpy roads. A simple fix was to substitute flat-head allen bolts, countersunk into the aluminum top plates. Those now sold by other vendors (and maybe Hall, by this time) include countersunk bolts, so no clearance problems anymore. The earlier assemblies were bonded together but in later ones, the plastic balls are replaceable. So if you buy late assemblies, then decide to change swaybar sizes, you can just get the balls, saving you from extra expense for complete new assemblies or trying to machine out the balls.
If you really want to delve deeper into the handling possibilities of the Pantera, I did a 5-part series a few years ago in the POCA Newsletters, describing what's possible. Too long & too detailed for e-mail posts. By the way, I try all this stuff out on my wife's '72 for many miles & various speeds up to 150 before recommending anything as serious as steering mods.
Did you ever write those 5 part reports on a Word doc or PDF that can be emailed? I would love to read them. A bloke just can't have too much knowledge on these cars, particularly when they relate to issues I'm finding.
This weekend I took the car out for a 600 mile run down along some winding mountain roads and then back along a coastal strip. The weather was attrocious with sqally winds and torrential rain for most of the weekend.
The car was a serious handful. Darting and diving on all but the most even surfaces. On the freeways it was okay, but as soon as you hit the dual lane country roads it was all over the shop. In the wet it was just dangerous, but really, at 100 km/ph on the local roads you really had to hang onto it. No fun at all.
It also leaked like a sieve, but that's another whole story. Destroyed half of the new wool carpets, and saturated nearly everything in the front trunk.
So there are a few issues with the car.
When I got it the front wheels looked all wrong and seemed to be too facr inwards. Even when sold from Georgia up to Boston, one of the posters on here noted how strange the front wheels looked. They are frrom Pantera East and I believe that the owner at the time may have ordered GT5 wheels for a GT-L or vise versa. To get the wheels to sit right on the car and look correct with the front flares, I fitted a 32mm spacer to each side.
Naturally if the back spacing on the wheels was wrong, this won't help the handling. Adding 32mm and pushing the wheels out effectively widens the track and this won't help either.
Add to this the factory bump steer and there is a serious issue here that needs rectification.
Also another contributing factor will be the springs. I feel that the car is too stiffly sprung. The rear feels okay, but even fully reconditioned Alden shockers on the highest rebound setting can't cope with the rear springs. The previous owner fitted them in 2007. Originally they were F350 / R550 but now they are F400 / R650.
What is the general consensus amongst you blokes? What spring rates do you all run? I mean our cars are basically the same weight so I'm presuming that you guys generally use similar spring rates on a variety of different shockers.
Final point of note. Do GT5 cars have different front control arms? Are they longer than stock GT-L units to allow for a wider track? Are the rack ends (tie rods) also different to allow for this extra width?
This weekend I took the car out for a 600 mile run down along some winding mountain roads and then back along a coastal strip. The weather was attrocious with sqally winds and torrential rain for most of the weekend.
The car was a serious handful. Darting and diving on all but the most even surfaces. On the freeways it was okay, but as soon as you hit the dual lane country roads it was all over the shop. In the wet it was just dangerous, but really, at 100 km/ph on the local roads you really had to hang onto it. No fun at all.
It also leaked like a sieve, but that's another whole story. Destroyed half of the new wool carpets, and saturated nearly everything in the front trunk.
So there are a few issues with the car.
When I got it the front wheels looked all wrong and seemed to be too facr inwards. Even when sold from Georgia up to Boston, one of the posters on here noted how strange the front wheels looked. They are frrom Pantera East and I believe that the owner at the time may have ordered GT5 wheels for a GT-L or vise versa. To get the wheels to sit right on the car and look correct with the front flares, I fitted a 32mm spacer to each side.
Naturally if the back spacing on the wheels was wrong, this won't help the handling. Adding 32mm and pushing the wheels out effectively widens the track and this won't help either.
Add to this the factory bump steer and there is a serious issue here that needs rectification.
Also another contributing factor will be the springs. I feel that the car is too stiffly sprung. The rear feels okay, but even fully reconditioned Alden shockers on the highest rebound setting can't cope with the rear springs. The previous owner fitted them in 2007. Originally they were F350 / R550 but now they are F400 / R650.
What is the general consensus amongst you blokes? What spring rates do you all run? I mean our cars are basically the same weight so I'm presuming that you guys generally use similar spring rates on a variety of different shockers.
Final point of note. Do GT5 cars have different front control arms? Are they longer than stock GT-L units to allow for a wider track? Are the rack ends (tie rods) also different to allow for this extra width?
you took your car out last weekend ? your crazy !It was the wettest weekend in years !
True!!
It was a carby car run with the Ferrari club and I was invited. They put pressure on me for the last six weeks to try and get the car finished. It came off the hoist Friday night at 8pm and was at the meeting point the following morning. I spent two days spraying vintage Ferrari's with rooster tails of water off those massive rear wheels.
It was a carby car run with the Ferrari club and I was invited. They put pressure on me for the last six weeks to try and get the car finished. It came off the hoist Friday night at 8pm and was at the meeting point the following morning. I spent two days spraying vintage Ferrari's with rooster tails of water off those massive rear wheels.
Would have been awesome, I would love to go on one of those cruises.Maybe not in the rain, my wipers are just 'painted on' !!
Melb-Geelong-Anglesea-Lorne-Deans Marsh-Barwon Downs-Forest-Colac-Barongarook-Lavers Hill-Pt Campbell. Overnight there then back thru Apollo Bar-Lorne-Great Ocean Road to Torquay then home.
For those interested, Google the route. Pretty awesome part of Victoria.
For those interested, Google the route. Pretty awesome part of Victoria.
I would think the position of your front wheels related to the stock position would make a huge difference. When I bought my car it had some aftermarket seven inch wide front wheels that had the wrong back space moving the wheels out from the stock position. When I installed my Pantera East Campy clones that are eight inches wide with 245/45ZR16s it made a big difference on how the car handled. The eight inch wide wheels reduced the scrub radius a bit from stock by moving the center of the tire inward from stock and that is an improvement. You would think that as you widen the wheels you would want to keep the scrub radius as near to stock as posable or try to improve it.
Mike
Mike
Hi Robert!
Sounds like a fantastic drive!
I was born in Colac and lived there for 15 years and my parents had a holiday house at Skenes Creek near Apollo bay until I was 30, so I know that whole area pretty darn well! The day I got my liscence I drove there with my best friend in my parents V8 HZ Premier, talk about trusting parents!! Somehow I didn't kill myself. 
But my mate might have been a bit white in the face 
Wish I was back there with my Pantera! Enjoy,
Cheers, Tim.
Sounds like a fantastic drive!
I was born in Colac and lived there for 15 years and my parents had a holiday house at Skenes Creek near Apollo bay until I was 30, so I know that whole area pretty darn well! The day I got my liscence I drove there with my best friend in my parents V8 HZ Premier, talk about trusting parents!! Somehow I didn't kill myself. But my mate might have been a bit white in the face Wish I was back there with my Pantera! Enjoy,Cheers, Tim.
The carpet (felt) in the front trunk was wet so today I decided to pull it out and dry it all properly. What I found defies description.
The floor is badly rusted and the battery area recess is probably the worst. The entire front load area has so many holes dilled in it that it looks like Swiss cheese. Goodness knows what the previous owners have needed to mount in there. Probably the worst find was the size of the holes which appear to have been sliced open with a cold chisel to feed the control wiring for the CD changer unit, and the lack of any sort of grommets where the main battery supply line enters the cabin.
Seems that a recent owner discovered that if they purchased one of the front compartment felt kits and glued in in place over the rusty steel, that everything would look all nice again and hide a myriad of sins.
So, back to the cutting and welding to repair it all properly as I've had to do with the floor and the sill. Ah well...............
Anyway, mounted on the verticle forward section of the front trunk near to the washer bottle, there is a small electrical component with a red rubber button on top. It's mounted on what appears to be two factory small studs so I think it's a genuine something or other!
It has a Ford part number and three wires could go to it, but only one wire actually does go to it on my car. Part Number: D4AB-11A138-CA FORD is written on it.
I looked thru the parts manual and I can't seem to locate it. Any ideas?
Could it have something to do with a reset switch for the low front pads or something as silly as that?
The floor is badly rusted and the battery area recess is probably the worst. The entire front load area has so many holes dilled in it that it looks like Swiss cheese. Goodness knows what the previous owners have needed to mount in there. Probably the worst find was the size of the holes which appear to have been sliced open with a cold chisel to feed the control wiring for the CD changer unit, and the lack of any sort of grommets where the main battery supply line enters the cabin.
Seems that a recent owner discovered that if they purchased one of the front compartment felt kits and glued in in place over the rusty steel, that everything would look all nice again and hide a myriad of sins.
So, back to the cutting and welding to repair it all properly as I've had to do with the floor and the sill. Ah well...............
Anyway, mounted on the verticle forward section of the front trunk near to the washer bottle, there is a small electrical component with a red rubber button on top. It's mounted on what appears to be two factory small studs so I think it's a genuine something or other!
It has a Ford part number and three wires could go to it, but only one wire actually does go to it on my car. Part Number: D4AB-11A138-CA FORD is written on it.
I looked thru the parts manual and I can't seem to locate it. Any ideas?
Could it have something to do with a reset switch for the low front pads or something as silly as that?
Seeing as how you're out at the end of the world, I'll try to compile the geometry articles via pdf & e-mail the collection to your website e-mail address.
As far as driving in monsoon conditions, giant tires hydroplane pretty easily even when the geometry is correct. Be careful!
On suspension springs: our '72 Pantera L has been the subject of a 20-year project to improve its handling and lighten it up a bit. The car originally weighed 3250 lbs with 1/2 tank of gas. Today, it weighs 2690 lbs, still with the same visual appearance but 500 lbs lighter. Once I get my aluminum block engine finished, along with a fiberglas decklid, we will be yet another 100 lbs or so lighter, still with A/C, heater, mounted wipers and a CD/AM-FM stereo radio. At that weight, I have good luck using 250-lb front springs with 300-lb rears. Your car being a conversion, I really have no idea what its weight might be, but a guess is 3200 lbs ready to drive.
Without having driven your car, I personally feel your springs are too stiff for touring use; maybe OK for road racing but not street driving on bumpy roads. Stock springs were 250 lbs front & 355 lbs rear, according to Ted Mitchell's comprehensive Pantera geometry website
My Koni gas shocks are the high pressure type (around 250 psi internal) and that adds another 40-some lbs of spring pressure from each shock- adds to the total spring load. So our lightweight Pantera runs a total 290-lb spring load in front & 340-lbs in the rear. Another road race & street Pantera (belonging to a parts vendor but not lightened) runs similar weight springs and finds they work well overall. As a guess, your car should react well to around 350-lb fronts & 450-lb rear springs. Fortunately, aftermarket springs are cheap at $50 or so apiece, so experimenting is not a bank-breaker. Anti-sway bar sizes should not affect this although they WILL help cornering.
As far as driving in monsoon conditions, giant tires hydroplane pretty easily even when the geometry is correct. Be careful!
On suspension springs: our '72 Pantera L has been the subject of a 20-year project to improve its handling and lighten it up a bit. The car originally weighed 3250 lbs with 1/2 tank of gas. Today, it weighs 2690 lbs, still with the same visual appearance but 500 lbs lighter. Once I get my aluminum block engine finished, along with a fiberglas decklid, we will be yet another 100 lbs or so lighter, still with A/C, heater, mounted wipers and a CD/AM-FM stereo radio. At that weight, I have good luck using 250-lb front springs with 300-lb rears. Your car being a conversion, I really have no idea what its weight might be, but a guess is 3200 lbs ready to drive.
Without having driven your car, I personally feel your springs are too stiff for touring use; maybe OK for road racing but not street driving on bumpy roads. Stock springs were 250 lbs front & 355 lbs rear, according to Ted Mitchell's comprehensive Pantera geometry website
My Koni gas shocks are the high pressure type (around 250 psi internal) and that adds another 40-some lbs of spring pressure from each shock- adds to the total spring load. So our lightweight Pantera runs a total 290-lb spring load in front & 340-lbs in the rear. Another road race & street Pantera (belonging to a parts vendor but not lightened) runs similar weight springs and finds they work well overall. As a guess, your car should react well to around 350-lb fronts & 450-lb rear springs. Fortunately, aftermarket springs are cheap at $50 or so apiece, so experimenting is not a bank-breaker. Anti-sway bar sizes should not affect this although they WILL help cornering.
Thanks Jack.
Do you think it's worth the gamble of having springs made locally or just get them from a US vendor and have Mike send them out. Pretty damn heavy to ship four springs.
We have spring manufacturers but I'd need to know free length of the spring, ID and OD.
I'm with you, the roads here are crap, I don't want a track car but a nice driving car and I think 100lbs lighter in the springs on each corner should fix it up a bit.
Did GT5 cars have different control arms at the front to push the wheels out further? I would have expected the Pantera East wheels to have fitted well but even the 11" fronts were 30+ mm inside the front flares.
I'll pull off a front wheel tomorrow and measure the back spacing, and at that point at least I'll have some numbers to compare.
Do you think it's worth the gamble of having springs made locally or just get them from a US vendor and have Mike send them out. Pretty damn heavy to ship four springs.
We have spring manufacturers but I'd need to know free length of the spring, ID and OD.
I'm with you, the roads here are crap, I don't want a track car but a nice driving car and I think 100lbs lighter in the springs on each corner should fix it up a bit.
Did GT5 cars have different control arms at the front to push the wheels out further? I would have expected the Pantera East wheels to have fitted well but even the 11" fronts were 30+ mm inside the front flares.
I'll pull off a front wheel tomorrow and measure the back spacing, and at that point at least I'll have some numbers to compare.
Robert,
The relay looking thing with red button is a starter override switch.
For visuals and ID on stuff Panteras by Wilkinson's Catalog is always a good resource.
The GT5 and wide body cars use the same a-arms as the narrow bodies. I recommend the modification that widens the ball joint area to provide more caster as wide body cars track terribly. They benefit from up to 7 degress of caster (stock is about 2.5 degrees). The stock GT5 handling is terrible because the wheels were simply pushed outward over the center of the wheel.
Most issues are with aftermarket wheels not having the correct backspacing. Good idea to measure and we can compare, stock 10" and 13"wide campi wheels are 4.625" front and 4.75" rear (to inside edge of tire bead).
Shock springs should be pretty easy to come by, what shocks do you have? For street wide body I'd probably start with 350 or 375 lb fronts and 450 lb rears.... even on Aussie roads.
That reminds me of my first summer when we lived in Australia; we drove from Newcastle to Surfers Paradise for Christmas on the recommendation of a local who said just take the Freeway.... he forgot to mention the freeway was a 2 lane highway and 450 miles took 13 hrs!
Summer is upon you, so my recommendation is drive it and worry about the rust come winter. I know so many people that get deep into restoration and forget what it's like to drive....
Julian
The relay looking thing with red button is a starter override switch.
For visuals and ID on stuff Panteras by Wilkinson's Catalog is always a good resource.
The GT5 and wide body cars use the same a-arms as the narrow bodies. I recommend the modification that widens the ball joint area to provide more caster as wide body cars track terribly. They benefit from up to 7 degress of caster (stock is about 2.5 degrees). The stock GT5 handling is terrible because the wheels were simply pushed outward over the center of the wheel.
Most issues are with aftermarket wheels not having the correct backspacing. Good idea to measure and we can compare, stock 10" and 13"wide campi wheels are 4.625" front and 4.75" rear (to inside edge of tire bead).
Shock springs should be pretty easy to come by, what shocks do you have? For street wide body I'd probably start with 350 or 375 lb fronts and 450 lb rears.... even on Aussie roads.
That reminds me of my first summer when we lived in Australia; we drove from Newcastle to Surfers Paradise for Christmas on the recommendation of a local who said just take the Freeway.... he forgot to mention the freeway was a 2 lane highway and 450 miles took 13 hrs!
Summer is upon you, so my recommendation is drive it and worry about the rust come winter. I know so many people that get deep into restoration and forget what it's like to drive....
Julian
Thanks Julian.
How des a starter over ride work. There are three wire connectors on it, but only one wire connected. Can I piss it off?
I have the Johnny Woods modification done and I'm currently running 4'30" of castor.
I have Alden Eagle shckers, brand new rebuilt by the factory to a road/race spec as I told them at the time that Aussie roads were crap and what springs the car had under it.
So far I've wire brushed all the surface rust, put a coat of quality rust converter on it, and put the carpet back in the front trunk.
As you say, it can wait!!
How des a starter over ride work. There are three wire connectors on it, but only one wire connected. Can I piss it off?
I have the Johnny Woods modification done and I'm currently running 4'30" of castor.
I have Alden Eagle shckers, brand new rebuilt by the factory to a road/race spec as I told them at the time that Aussie roads were crap and what springs the car had under it.
So far I've wire brushed all the surface rust, put a coat of quality rust converter on it, and put the carpet back in the front trunk.
As you say, it can wait!!
i think that starter over ride is part of the switch in the seltbelt. which I presume is not there anymore.
I happened to 'loose' mine when I redid the front trunk.
I happened to 'loose' mine when I redid the front trunk.
Robert,
If you haven't already done so, go to Mike Dailey's Pantera Place and download a copy of all the electrical diagrams. There is one for the starter override circuit and as Paul says it is part of the seat belt and parking brake circuit. Most cars I know don't have any of that remaining.
http://www.panteraplace.com/page107.htm
I assume the Aldan's are true Aldans with a std 2.5" dia. spring and not the ones Hall sold with 4.5" dia.? Spring length should be 10" or 12" and easily measured once removed. Sourcing a spring the correct length and required rating shoudl not be difficult.
If the shocks are the Hall ones, then you can convert them to std 2.5" dia. springs, but will require new locators/perches.
Julian
If you haven't already done so, go to Mike Dailey's Pantera Place and download a copy of all the electrical diagrams. There is one for the starter override circuit and as Paul says it is part of the seat belt and parking brake circuit. Most cars I know don't have any of that remaining.
http://www.panteraplace.com/page107.htm
I assume the Aldan's are true Aldans with a std 2.5" dia. spring and not the ones Hall sold with 4.5" dia.? Spring length should be 10" or 12" and easily measured once removed. Sourcing a spring the correct length and required rating shoudl not be difficult.
If the shocks are the Hall ones, then you can convert them to std 2.5" dia. springs, but will require new locators/perches.
Julian
Hi guys, my fantastic Fluidyne radiator sprung a leak today so whilst pulling that out, I also got a front wheel off.
The total width of the rim is 303mm so it's basically exactly 12" overall. Hence it's an 11" wheel measured to the bead edge.
Anyway 303 divided by 2 gives me exact centre of wheel so 151.mm is centre line.
From total outside edge at the rear to the mounting flange face my wheels are 163mm so I have a positive backspacing of just 11.5mm!
I also measured the spacers that I'm running to push the wheels out properly into the wheel arches and they are 35mm.
Given the current combination, the centre of my wheel is positioned 46.5mm outboard of the wheel mounting flange face with the spacer in place and 11.5mm outboard of the flange face with no spacer.
How does this compare to you other blokes running big wheels up front?
The total width of the rim is 303mm so it's basically exactly 12" overall. Hence it's an 11" wheel measured to the bead edge.
Anyway 303 divided by 2 gives me exact centre of wheel so 151.mm is centre line.
From total outside edge at the rear to the mounting flange face my wheels are 163mm so I have a positive backspacing of just 11.5mm!
I also measured the spacers that I'm running to push the wheels out properly into the wheel arches and they are 35mm.
Given the current combination, the centre of my wheel is positioned 46.5mm outboard of the wheel mounting flange face with the spacer in place and 11.5mm outboard of the flange face with no spacer.
How does this compare to you other blokes running big wheels up front?
Whilst I was about it I whipped the rear off too.
Total rim width 356mm. Centre line 178mm. Distance from rear edge of rim to mounting flange face 138mm
This gives a +40mm rear offset. Effectively, the wheel sits 40mm plus half the wheel width towards the outside of the car.
Total rim width 356mm. Centre line 178mm. Distance from rear edge of rim to mounting flange face 138mm
This gives a +40mm rear offset. Effectively, the wheel sits 40mm plus half the wheel width towards the outside of the car.