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Pantera 06927

G Guest
Hi guys,

rather then start multiple new thread I figured I might be best just to start one and title it with my own car's number. Then I can just add to it as time goes along.

Okay, car is registerd now and on the road, but I knew the Alden Eagle shockers weren't too good and needed replacing. I also need to do rear stub axles and a trunnion bush for the gear linkage. Whilst I'm there, might as well rip out the Upper control arms and send them to the UK for modification, and look at the steering rack whilst the UCA are away.

So there's the initial list. Got to start somewhere hey?

So this morning I ripped out the Alden Eagles. One out of four was still working, one had blown the lower compression valving out completely, one was actually torn in half and the front right had just stopped working.

So I have these on the ground, stripped and cleaned ready for transport to USA.

Question?

These were fitted new in 2004 and the car hasn't done 5000 miles in tht time. Given that now it's Down Under, it may get driven a whole lot more and on a variety of roads, not smooth super highways like we see on USA TV shows!

So, if the guys at Aldens rebuild them, I wonder if it's possible to harden them up more that what they might do for a show car for instance?

Do any of you guys run ALden shockers, and if so, are they sotock, rebuilt or have stock adjustables got enough ajustment to firm them up for the type of driving I'm proposing?

NEXT:

I'm going to send the upper control arms to UK for modification for castor. I've gone to pull them off and suprise, suprise, you need special tools.

I sorted the rubber grommet and found that above the clutch pedal, but the nut is lower than the hole centre so you cant use a socket from inside the car anyway.

The worst part appears to be the 17mm bolts/nuts that actually hold the ball joint to the upper control arms. None of my 17mm gear will go on to them. Looks like you need a special super thin wall tube spanner to get onto them. Can anyone confirm the two techniques to 1. get the 19mm bolts of the upper control arms, and 2. what tool to use to get the 17mm ball joint off the upper control arms?

Thanks
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O OzGT5 (Guest)
Okay, shocker question still stands, but.............

Some days I just hate women!!!

Picture this. Her, the lanky blonde wife, arrives home after work and wanders into the shed with the business jacket, tight skirt and high heels.

"Are you still under that car?" she says, "You started that when I left this morning!"

So I explain to her that I got the shockers off and show her the cleaned up struts ready to post tomorrow, and then tell her that I struck an issue with the upper control arms etc as described in post above.

"What about that set of special sockets with the covers on them that I bought you to take the wheels off the cars without scratching them?" she says. "Isn't the smallest one of those a 17mm size?"

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's too thick to fit in this space I try to explain to her.

In her best, I'm only a mere woman and you are Tarzan type voice, "Well, what about if you slide off the nylon sheath that protects the wheels, then I'm sure you will be left with a thin enough wall to fit in there" she says, looking towards the roof of the garage as if to add 'dumbass' onto the end of the statement if she wasn't actually a very well mannered lady!

And guess what.............she was right. Three minutes later I've got both upper control arms on the bench.

Yes, she went and changed clothes then operated the 1/2 drive rattle gun from under the wheel arch, whilst I crawled into the footwells and captured the 19mm nuts. Bloody women!!!
lf-tp2511lf-tp2511Member
quote:
I have aldins in mine, and mine are in simular condition to yours.

IMHO, from what you both have experienced, it might seem as if putting stock and faith in the virtues of rebuilt Aldins is pretty much an exercise in throwing your money away.

I cannot recall other failure reports with the Aldins, but the writing on the wall seems pretty clear.

Dump them now, buy Konis, and be done with it.

Larry
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
I've heard of a few Aldan failures- mostly leaks around the damping adjust screw. If you send such back to Aldan, they unscrew the adjuster and put a new 0-ring on. Until the next time. Had not heard of hard-part breakage before. What spring rates do these assemblies have?
Our Pantera has always had Konis with zero failures in going-on 30 years.
O OzGT5 (Guest)
Okay, based on feedback from the guys that know, I went to Koni in Melbourne to discuss the issue. Now this is the Australian HQ for Koni, yet they tell me that the only product that they list for Pantera is the 8211 series which is a 12 stage fully adjustable rebound and compression shocker as fitted to all 70's and 80's race cars including F1.

It seems they will do the job, but their recomendation is the Code 1324 version with the B3 valving which suits a 285 - 450lb spring rate.

My car runs a 400/650 spring rate which they think is too stiff for the car, and if I stick with that spring rate then I need a Code 1324 with a B6 valving rate suitable for 400 - 700lb springs.

Now here is the kicker, $1100 AUD pr shocker plus labour charges to adjust the valving to suit the car and shorten the bump stops as required.

Close to $5000 for the set including new springs.

They said that if I could find an old set of Koni's, they can certainly rebuild them, but there are no suitable bodies available as new items apart from these racing shocks.
lf-tp2511lf-tp2511Member
I have Konis supplied by Quella.

I took the following # off mine - 30 1301 1000.

'30' referred to the series 30 shocks, (gas-filled, sealed and not rebuildable)

1301 was the style (oval track with heim
joints for the upper/lower mounts

1000 was production date code (10th week of
the year 2000).

These are rebound adjustable shocks that must be removed from the car to be adjusted according to the factory sequence.

Springs are also from Quella and are -

GT5 SPRING RATES ARE:

FRONT 450 POUNDS

REAR 550 POUNDS


Hope this helps at least a little bit.

Larry
O OzGT5 (Guest)
Yep, they look great. The 30 series won't do it for me as they are not height adjustable. Classic garage has a set for a good price, but I'm not interested in a fixed height unit.

The ones on that link look great. Weird that they are not Koni colour as I've never seen a Koni in Yellow, but if I could get a part number from them, I think they would be perfect.
57545754If you're not kickin' up dust, you're collectin' it!
Have you looked at the Hall Pantera shock options, they have both standard and aluminum versions...

http://hallpantera.com/cgi-bin...ntera-inc&item=22484

From the Hall Website under "Chassis Components"...

SHOCK ABSORBERS
Set of 4 gas filled shock absorbers with adjustable ride height. Includes springs.
$1040.00

SHOCK ABSORBERS
Aluminum, gas filled, double adjustable. Includes springs.
$1440.00

Might be worth making a quick call to a vendor or two to see what they have to offer.
O OzGT5 (Guest)
Yep, I'm pretty sure they are Aldans.

But.........is that such a bad thing. If Hall supported them and sold them, can they be all bad. Seems a lot of folks using them that want height adjustment.

They may not be a Koni by design, reputation or quality, but are the Q1's going to be much better given their racing heritage.

Here's what I found when I pulled out the Aldans. Remember these were fitted in 2004 and then a spring rate change was done in 2007 so they were obviously out at that time.

• Front Left - The entire adjustment knob and valve unit is not in the base of the shocker and I can't even see the groove where the circlip sits that holds the valve.

• Front Right - Not too bad, still holding pressure but doesn't seem to be affected by the adjustment knobs.

• Rear Left – No pressure at all.

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O OzGT5 (Guest)
Rear Right – Very badly damaged. The entire shocker had come apart in the car. The top had come off and the inner tube has been rubbing against the casing and worn the thread off the outer casing. I have no idea how this could happen when the shocker is totally captive in the car unless constant movement can unscrew the top cap.

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pantera1887pantera1887Member
quote:
Originally posted by OzGT5:

The ones on that link look great. Weird that they are not Koni colour as I've never seen a Koni in Yellow, but if I could get a part number from them, I think they would be perfect.


You can just order the set from Pantera East and they bolt right in. I think the setup was only around $1000. Ride height adjustable too!
57545754If you're not kickin' up dust, you're collectin' it!
I've had trouble with their website recently too, but found this info posted by Larry late last year...
--------------------------------
A recent phone call found that he is redoing his website.

Try his phone or email:

727-381-1151 sales@mapenterprises.net

Marino is the owner

--------------------------------

Just found some other possible e-mail addresses for Marino on the POCA forum

marinoperna(at)ij.net mperna(at)tampabay.rr.com marinoperna(at)gmail.com
Last edited by 5754
pantera1887pantera1887Member
quote:
Originally posted by OzGT5:
All Pantera East links that I have are dead.

Is there a new website for them please?


Be sure to tell them that you have a GT5 conversion so they can pre adjust the height for you. That said not all GT5 conversion have their finders in the factory position so some adjustment might be required. With my spring rates I left the back shocks set they way I received them (lower A arms parallel to the ground) and the lowered the front some to provide a slight nose down rake.

Mike
O OzGT5 (Guest)
After much contemplation I decided to have the Aldans rebuilt.

Local Koni supplier in Melbourne was close to 4 grand for new ones, so back to CA they have gone.

Aldan recommend their S specification which is more suited to Sport Car / Road Race with heavy compression and heavy rebound settings.

They left yesterday so should be in California for the start of next week.

Whilst that's going on I have sent the upper control arms (front) off to Johnny Wood in the UK for modification which he did over Easter and sent them back today.

One thing of note is that apparently I already had an offset bush in the upper arms which now wont be any good so I have to locate some standard upper control arm bushes.

Can anybody point me in the right direction for these please?

I'm also having a set of short bumpers made by Kirk Evans and have already removed the rear steel bumper and shocker system all ready for the lightweight rear bumpers.
O OzGT5 (Guest)
Today I also removed the rear axles. As you may remember I did a temp repair to the drivers axle a few months back to get the car on the road. I used a two part epoxy mix and then machined it on my lathe to 40.04mm and fitted the bearing with a loctite product to get me by, knowing that at a future time I would have to replace the axle.

I have done 300 miles on the repaired axle and today when I pressed off the bearing, the epoxy area looks like new, zero damage. That stuff really is amazing when used properly.

Anyway, I measured up my axles expecting them to be 39.99 and original, but no, it appears they have been changed at some time.

Worst part is they are not even. Starting from the base of the splines I have 40.04, half way down it goes to 40.11, and then back to 40.02 towards the base.

The passenger side wasn't much better being 40.09 through the centre and then back to 40.04mm where the bearing sits on the outside.

Also, when I took the nut off the passenger side it was quite loose, certainly not requiring any grunt at all with a three foot bar on it. The drivers side was still very firm and took a bloody god heave, which was good seeing as this is the one I repaired a little while ago.

There seems to be many and varied opinions on the axle solution, and I'm considering even a different alternative and would appreciate your opinions.

We have a very good hard chrome place nearby who will grind the shaft, hardchrome face it, and then grind back to my specification. Cost is around $220 AUD per side.

I contacted a local bearing supplier today who said that they would like to see approx 0.003 - 0.004 thou of interference fit on a 40.00mm bearing.

Calculating 0.003 thou back to metric brings me to 0.0762mm or 0.004 thou to 0.1016mm

This is really a lot, it means the shaft would need to have a finish grind of 40.075mm if I run with 3 thou interference fit! Seems too much to me, but I'm wondering what you guys think?

I would have considered 40.06 to be a suitable number, then warm the bearings, freeze the axle and slip them together.

Has anyone actually measured the bearings to be an exact 40.0000mm?
O OzGT5 (Guest)
On a side note, I fitted new front rotors and pads to my Testarossa a couple of years ago and a few blokes here talked me in to having them cryogenically treated.

Frozen to -270 deg C in liquid nitrogen and then slowly bought back to ambient. Aparently it aligns the molecular structure of the steel and dramatically lessons fatige and structural failure of steel components.

My brakes are great, no disc scoring at all and hardly any dust.

At the time the guy had hundreds of mower blades from the large municipal lawn mowers. Apparently after treating they keep an edge for 8 - 10 times longer than untreated.

He was doing gearbox splines, axles, aircraft components, all sorts of things.

http://www.cryogen.com.au/ will take you to the site.

Today, my local Ferrari mechanic suggested that I do the Pantera axles after the chrome and grind treatment.

Do any of you Americans use this type of treatment or have any experience with it?
O OzGT5 (Guest)
Thanks Larry,

Given that my current axles are 40.04 at the bearing end, wouldn't you think thay have been replaced at some time, as I thought factory ones were actually undersize, like 39.99mm?

I'm concerned as to why mine appear to be much thicker in the middle, meaning I'm stretching the bearing somewhat to get over the centre and then going back down to 40.04.

Could the axles be getting thicker in the middle by the tension applied to the nuts?

Are the Wilkinson axles made to really good tollerances in your estimation?

Would it be possible to get a current price inclusive of post to you from Wilkinson as trying to get the time right between the countries is hard.

BTW: I also need that strange bush that sits on the drivers side chassis rail that the gearshift shaft runs through. Mine is so bad it has more than 6mm of sideways movement and I've had to take the finger gate off to allow gear selection of Reverse and first.
O OzGT5 (Guest)
I wrote to Steve Wilkinson today to see if he can confirm the shaft size of his axles. I really want to go with a 2 thou interference fit to the bearings and if I can't buy this then I may have to go down the spray weld route. After 35 years, the old girl deserves a new set of axles, so I hope that the Wilkinson axles have the right tollerances.
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lf-tp2511lf-tp2511Member
quote:
I also need that strange bush that sits

Trunnion bearing. Stocker is pretty well done for after 35 years.

All the vendors have it.

Quella does something different on his restorations. He removes the shaft and welds a larger pipe over the area where the trunnion is. He then turns that new o.d. down to fit properly inside a large heim joint.

No slop, but a bit problematic for keeping lubricated.

A local owner bought the axles just late last year. I recall the bill was just under $400. Doubt it has risen since them.

As for tolerance, I do not have measurements of the set I bought, but I am quite sure Steve had them made for a proper fit.

Larry

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O OzGT5 (Guest)
Larry, I tried to sign up for Steve's subscription today but the sign up link didn't work at all.

It's pretty hard to find anything there except, naturally, for the stock parts that come up on the catalog diagrams.

Is there a specific link to an area on his site where he lists all the new stuff, like these axles etc?
lf-tp2511lf-tp2511Member
quote:
It's pretty hard to find anything there except, naturally, for the stock parts that come up on the catalog diagrams.

Steve's site has not, nor is likely to be in the foreseeable future, upgraded since created.

But some of his new parts have been added, and are findable by going to that piece's description page, and deleting the last letter and adding the next letter.

He is in effect creating a new part number. Sometimes he adds several,so keep changing the last letter until you get a void page.

Not so with his new axles.

For instance:

This is the page number you get for one of the coolant pipes

http://www.panterapartsusa.com...l.cgi?prod_id=11007A

If you change the last letter "A" to a "B", you get his upgraded stainless steel pipe

http://www.panterapartsusa.com...l.cgi?prod_id=11007b

Larry
O OzGT5 (Guest)
Still no joy here. No answers back from Wilkinsons as to the actual external size of their new axles.

Car is in a million bits and whilst waiting for answers so that I can order my bits from USA, I've started cleaning up some of the underbody bits.

The previous owner stated in the car records that all of the control arms were bead blasted and coated back in 2007 when new bushes were fitted.

Doesn't ring true to me as ALL of the control arms have surface rust on them. Sandblaster took it all off and the paint was so thin, I'm sure it was a $2.95 spray can from home depot. Certainly not a decent paint let alone a powder coat.

So having sand blasted them all again, this time they are all getting a proper priming and coating with 2 pack enamel in an alloy colour. I've also pulled off the rear stabiliser bar and I'll have this powdercoated as the spring tension in it wont take kindly to chrome plating or even painting.
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
Pantera and Mangusta stub axles need a medium press fit if you're going to use ball bearings or straight-roller bearings such as the GT5-S had. Slip-fits do not hold the inner race tightly enough for 300+ horses with these bearings. The axle will flex a little and the steel used is much softer than bearing race steels, so the axles get wear-tracks pounded in them.
I've seen stock axles successfully repaired by welding, by hard-chrome and by spray-welding. Once repaired and reground (NOT lathe-turned!) to a medium press fit (0.0005"), ball bearings will last a lifetime.
But if big wide sticky tires are mounted AND you drive hard or do frequent track days, expect to find the second weak spot in stock axles. This is the wheel flange where it joins the axle shaft. The flange will flex at the shaft with giant tires, eventually cracking in two and you lose a wheel- and usually, the lower rear quarter panel! This doesn't happen with normal street use but 3 continuous hours on a race course with race tires will usually break one or both stock axles. Most aftermarket axles do not have hollow shafts, and have 3X thicker wheel flanges. Such non-flexing axles are adequate for pro racing with over-600 bhp engines. Knurling or magic glues will be very temporary axle repairs if you drive the car as it was intended. Finally, all this is useless unless you check axles with a 4-decimal micrometer: 3-decimal micrometers simply cannot measure close enough to check a medium press-fit of 0.0005". You'll be guessing which usually doesn't work. And remember, axles and the bearings are made with tolerances. Its possible to find completely stock combinations that are loose, tight or just right, but it takes a lot of parts to sort thru to find the 'good' combinations. Better to get high-quality high-carbon steel aftermarket axles and put that worry aside forever.
O OzGT5 (Guest)
With you all the way and understand that Larry.

I just need an answer. Do I just buy a set of Wilkinsons and be done with it?

Are they the right size?

I have to worry about this when a guy here in Perth ordered WIlkinson axles and they are 39.995mm measured properly.

This is undersize to the bearing so as long as it's seated parallel, it's barely a press fit as it's undersize.

Checking my imperial back to metric, your 0.0005" comes back to 0.0127mm

To get this crush inside the bearing I need to confirm that Wilkinsons new batch is 40.0127 or pretty damn close.

As soon as I see 39's, they just can't be right.

By the time I get them here, and slip new bearings in, it's a $1000 job, so I must get it right. You guys are too far away to do it again, and the mail is a killer on heavy things.
lf-tp2511lf-tp2511Member
quote:
With you all the way and understand that Larry.

I'm Larry, but Bosswrench is Jack. Smiler

Of course, if everyone (Including you Wink) would just sign your postings - like folks used to do in the old letter-writing days, sigh - then we would know who is who a bit more easily.

quote:
Do I just buy a set of Wilkinson's and be done with it?

Are they the right size?

Steve is closed Mondays. I will call him Tuesday and see if he gives me a clear answer to the size question.

Stand by.

Larry
O OzGT5 (Guest)
Well I completed the rear control arms today. All shiny and new in their new coat of metalic silver paint. I used a special hardened enamel designed for wheels as it's got great adhesion properties and resilient to chipping.

I have one hub stripped out and ready to go and will do the pass side tomorrow.

My front uppers should be back from Johnny Woods tomorrow or Wednesday so by the end of the week I should have all of the control arms painted, rebuilt and ready to fit back in again.

Hopefully Aldan turn my shockers around nice and quick so I can get it on the ground soon.

I need to check my steering rack for play but can't really do this till wheels are back on and the weight of the car is on them properly. Then I'll have the wife rock the steering wheel whilst I have a good look and see what else is needed.

Then I can order the trunion bush, axles, and maybe steering rack rebuild kit all at once.

I have also ordered Kirk's shortened bumpers to give it a cosmetic lift at the same time.
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