Pantera Engine Blocks

I did read someplace that the casting code D2AE-CA was indeed both 2 and 4 bolt. There was no distinction to which one it was other than taking the pan off. I think maybe George had said that or it came from one of the 351C web sites.

it's here in George's chart. George has said in the past that the Pantera engines were sourced from the Mustang assy lines, whatever engine the Mustang 351C-4V was getting for a particular production model year is what the Pantera got give or take for engines on hand in the queue. short story, 1970-1971.5 engine assy dates were 2 bolt blocks and from 1971.5 to the end of production were 4 bolt blocks

I recovered an old block with the foundry mark D2AE--CA from 1973 two bolts, it is +0.040 and worn, but I used it to clamp the oil pan on it while I was welding sheet metal to increase his capacity.

There is an issue. There are people, not necessarily with Panteras, that are claiming that they have 351c 4v engines with 4v carbs that are 2 bolt D2AE-CA blocks.

I'm suspecting though that the problem is that because they have a 4v engine, they presume that it is a CJ?

This was a story that I have heard years ago from the "Chevy" people in that there were 4v offerings from Chevy and 4v high performance offerings. There was often a false presumption that they were both the same?

What is going on may be similar but is this chart a Ford chart or a Pence chart? Is there official documentation from Ford that there are no 2 bolt CJ's?

There is no question that there are 2bolt D2AE-CA blocks. No one is saying that there are not. Again, the question is there documentation of 2 bolt CJ's?

Before I go claiming that ALL CJ's are ONLY 4 bolt blocks, I need Ford documentation. I've already been called a know nothing nobody. Probably from Q-anon followers who are ready to claim I am promoting conspiracy theories?

we should do a round call in the community to collect data as we have I guess def 1000 Panteras..right?

Found some pictures of two of the "warrantee" ZFs that escaped from the dumpster....

The list on those at the time was $775. I never knew of the Israel connection before though.

Quite a bit of postage on each one.

@panteradoug posted:

There is an issue. There are people, not necessarily with Panteras, that are claiming that they have 351c 4v engines with 4v carbs that are 2 bolt D2AE-CA blocks.

I'm suspecting though that the problem is that because they have a 4v engine, they presume that it is a CJ?

This was a story that I have heard years ago from the "Chevy" people in that there were 4v offerings from Chevy and 4v high performance offerings. There was often a false presumption that they were both the same?

What is going on may be similar but is this chart a Ford chart or a Pence chart? Is there official documentation from Ford that there are no 2 bolt CJ's?

There is no question that there are 2bolt D2AE-CA blocks. No one is saying that there are not. Again, the question is there documentation of 2 bolt CJ's?

Before I go claiming that ALL CJ's are ONLY 4 bolt blocks, I need Ford documentation. I've already been called a know nothing nobody. Probably from Q-anon followers who are ready to claim I am promoting conspiracy theories?

I know that with the 249 CJ & SCJ there were some blocks that were not 4 bolts, may have been the same type of scenario  (Components 3 (50megs.com))

Hi, I'm new to the forum and have been using it to learn about Clevelands ( sorry I have a 70 Mach 1)

I bought it as a 2 v car but soon realised it had 4v heads, an alloy manifold ( Ford numbers look like a boss replacement possibly) and what I think are original Boss alloy valve covers ( oil fingers inside and the plug lead guides are screwed on not rivited)

The heads are D1ZE  dated March 1971 and have guide plates and adjustable rockers

The block is D2AE  dated November 1973 and is a 2 bolt mains ( sump off job)

As you can see she's a bit of a mix up and when I managed to get in touch with the second owner in California ( I'm in the UK) he told me he bought it in 1997 from the first owner who worked at a Lincoln dealership and that he had " Pantera heads" fitted at the dealership ( I assume the alloy manifold which has a 4150 Holley on it was also fitted there) so my question is were Pantera parts different from Mustang and if so do any of my parts actually sound like them?

Thanks for any help and Panteras are very undervalued as a car especially here in the UK ( if you can find anyone who knows about them)

Jeff

The February POCA magazine has a listing of all the 351C casting numbers and years and lists 2 bolt and 4 bolt.

An article in diyford.com confirms there were both 2 bolt and 4 bolt D2AE-CA but no way to tell until you pull the pan.

This is the four-bolt main 351C block with a D2AE-CA casting number. Thing is, not all D2AE-CA blocks have four-bolt main caps. Never believe what you see until the pan is pulled and the caps are inspected.

D2AE-CA was the only cast code from mid 1971 to the end of production. this block was used for both H code (2V) and Q code (CJ / 4V) engines

Officially Ford states that all 351c Cobra Jets were D2AE-CA 4 bolt blocks.

There are lots of individuals claiming that they have original 2 bolt Cobra Jets. There may be confusion here of some thinking that all 4v 351c's are CJ's?

That is not so, but you can't talk to them. They start yelling at you. If you show them Ford documentation, they tear it up and set it on fire.

The heads that you have should be the closed chamber 4v heads that were used on the 1970 351c 4v's. Boss heads would have the same casting numbers but would be machined for screw in rocker arms studs, push rod guide plates and use adjustable rocker arms and a solid lifter cam shaft.

The drip tabs mounted inside of the valve covers were intended for  use with the solid lifter valve train. Not hydraulic lifter cams and valve trains.

I bought a set of Boss 351 "Service heads" about 1976, and from memory, so don't shoot me if I get the numbers wrong please, the head casting ID was D1AE. The box they cam in were marked I think, D1ZZ-A or AA?

When I went to sell them the guy who bought them started yelling rape or something like that, demanded his money back and said these were fraudulent as Boss 351 heads were marked D1ZX in the engineering casting number...and said I did a lousy job on machining the pedestals to boot. So be warned, some people are very touchy about this stuff even though they are incorrect about the details? Just sayin'.

Never having had a production line Boss 351, I couldn't refer to it for any kind of confirmation so I just refunded his money so he would stop waiving the shotgun around and scaring the neighbors. So far to this date, I have never seen a set of heads with the D1ZX on them, but admittedly, I have lived a sheltered life. I still haven't been arrested even once. So what does that say about my worldliness?

Odd because friends constantly ask me that?

It's all good but as the Cleveland is originally applied to the Pantera is a little different from other Ford applications, the Pantera may not be the examples that you want to model after? Many aftermarket modifications are applied to Panteras because they fit the Pantera better and are not necessarily what you would want to do on a Mustang or Torino, etc.

Here is a good source of some technical information you may be asking for. It is not complete as far as the 351c goes but may help.

The CJ is the first 4 bolt block BESIDES the 71 Boss and the 72 HO. I believe the Boss was a D0AZ 4 bolt block only available in the production line Boss 351 and the HO was a D2AE-CA 4 bolt block?

http://mustangtek.com/

@panteradoug posted:

What was the block used in the Pantera before the CJ's? Are they 4 bolt blocks?

Are all of the CJ 351's with the D2AE-CA blocks 4 bolt? That was the original specification on that engine.

Apparently the 4v 351c's were only 2 bolt blocks?

I do know that there are 2 bolt D2AE-CA blocks but my understanding is the CJ's only got the 4 bolt. I know that there is a 4v that is not a CJ and they seem to have 2 bolt blocks.

I don't know anything about CJ or non-CJ 351C blocks, but as far as 351C blocks used in the Pantera, I can tell you for a fact that Panteras came with BOTH 2-bolt mains and 4-bolt mains, and there's no rhyme or reason for which came with which that I can tell.  The original engine (never opened before I spun a rod bearing) in my 72 Pantera has 4-bolt mains.  Yet the original and never previously rebuilt 351C in a friend's 72 Pantera that is only 11 serial numbers earlier than mine has 2-bolt mains.

Thanks for all the info guys, the only things I know for sure are that my block is a 2 bolt mains and that the heads according to the "head register" have a 50% chance I reckon of being quench ones ( as she runs fine I doubt I'll be taking them off soon!) and that the guide plates have Ford numbers and they are adjustable rockers but with hydraulic tappets, I know as I've changed them but I have no idea what the cam is ( standard I reckon but 2v or 4v is anybody's guess)

I did have a theory that as the first owner worked at a dealership and we all know these type of cars / engines were very much out of fashion by the mid 70's perhaps he got parts cheaply?

anyway thanks again and good on you all keeping these cars and Cleveland engines going,  I know Windsor's are much easier to get parts for etc etc but they don't have the charisma of a Cleveland!

March 1971 heads will be closed chamber with 66cc chambers, a little larger volume than the D0 heads with 63cc chambers. if you look at the 4V Cylinder Head Repository in the date column, you'll see the break around July 1971 when ford stopped making closed chambers and started making open chambers. click on this link and open the pdf

https://www.tapatalk.com/group...ot-no-dot-t4793.html

Garth, the 1970 and 1971.5 M code 4V engines were built on 2 bolt main blocks, the only 4 bolt main block prior to the introduction of the Q code engine was the Boss

Doug, there are also those that deny the 1973-74 Q code engines being CJ's because they don't have the 2.19" / 1.71" valves, and no you can't talk to them no point in trying

@4vandproud posted:

Doug, there are also those that deny the 1973-74 Q code engines being CJ's because they don't have the 2.19" / 1.71" valves, and no you can't talk to them no point in trying

This is what I was advised on the 351c blocks.

"The warranty codes are in the master parts catalogs if you have a set of early books. The only two bolt main with 4V heads was the '70 - early 71 engine with the Autolite 4300 non spread bore. All Boss and CJ engines had four bolt main blocks. "Regular " blocks were used in all cases and machined accordingly. "

"ALL 73-4 Panteras are CJ's".

I'd speculate that the issue on Panteras is on the change over cars where 71-2 4v engines are still being installed irregardless of what the model year designation is until that stock was used up?

The warranty codes indicate what Ford made and installed not what someone else is saying they made.

Yes DeTomaso could've had engines in the queue and their actual engineering change date could've different from that of the Ford assy lines

It is probably true that engine documentation in the case of the Pantera is unreliable and sketchy at best but there are current owners of US produced vehicles, such as Mustangs and Torinos, that claim they have 351c Cobra Jets with 2 bolt blocks that are original to the car.

This is in direct contrast to what Ford says are the production records and how they list engines in the parts book for warranty identification.

I'm not a referee nor do I intend to be one but when a car comes up for sale that claims to be completely original and it does not match the original production records, guess what happens?

Unfortunatelly the so-called Experts and Auction houses specialist barely know our brand and call some of the cars original. Their ignorance replicates itself as they do not do proper homework and use dated printed and re-hashed information.   

To me, there is no debate. This is as the attorneys say, "a paper case", in that we are looking at documentation from the manufacturer and it is up to the contraries to prove the documentation is not accurate.

It is a Ford production discussion. Not a Pantera production discussion. With Panteras there simply is no way to accurately document what engines were installed new in the Panteras.

Considering that there is NO authority to judge originality on Panteras, unlike Mustangs, that may be a stillborn situation anyway and not matter much anytime soon?

Anyone thinking investing in "original" Panteras, whatever those are, is likely very ill advised to begin with and there is no sign that will ever change in the future.

Claiming originality on a Pantera is just a salesman's ploy of throwing enough crap at the wall in hopes something will stick.