Pantera year of manufacture vs VIN

This is to me a very interesting subject.

First off I've always trusted Kevin Marti for accuracy with his reports. When you go to document a Shelby, you need the report.

Everyone takes this as gospel. This shows that it isn't.

I'm not going to waste my money on it now. I want to see others with Panteras post their reports and look at the results.

It looks to me like there is some kind of a guessing game going on with him and the Panteras?

I don't remember if it was here or on the SAAC Forum where there was a poster that said his father was the engineer for Ford that took care of all the Warranty records on the Pantera Warranty Service.

As I recall he said he remembered his father had the "official" Ford records on these cars all hand written of 3"x 5" index cards and that to his knowledge when they were of no use to anyone they all got dumped into the garbage?

I'm wondering if Marti got a hold of a similar stack of cards from Ford and that is why he is offering these Pantera reports.

Now this isn't an accusation by me, but it isn't me who needs to explain this situation to everyone. It is Kevin Marti.

To me, it is Marti's credibility that is at stake here, not mine. I'm not the one that is claiming accuracy on these reports. He is, and the information being shown here is they are not accurate at all?

Considering all of this I doubt others will come forth with showing their Pantera reports, but personally I'd love to see them.

Maybe they will prove me wrong and way off base on this, but I don't think so?

Anyone up for the challenge to post them?

As far as what model year any car is, I do think George and I are in agreement basically.

There are two sets of records really. Detomaso's and Fords.

In the US all that matters legally are Fords because they are officially the manufacturer and Detomaso is essentially a sub-contractor, and Vignale a sub-contractor to him.

So the documentation from Ford is the determining factor as far as what model year the car is.

I'd love to see the accurate history of my car as far as the original selling dealer etc.

For '73 that is the first model year as a "titled" car for New York.

I purchased the car in New York with a Florida title.

Who knows where the original selling dealer was? It is a US car so likely it is a US sale? It is an L, it was assembled in September '72, it was red with a black interior. All other equipment is standard.

It had a dual pod dash and the early fuel tank and filler system. It has the L bumpers and directional lamps and pods. Pretty much answer my own questions on that...except the original dealer and sale date.

The only information missing is the original dealer and original sales date.

That is nothing more then a curiosity at this moment. I can wait.

Were the cars sold new in Canada from 71-74 US equipped cars?

quote:

Were the cars sold new in Canada from 71-74 US equipped cars?

From what research I have done. And there is very little info to be had.

Yes - The Canadian and U.S. cars were identical.

Actually, because the Canadian LM dealers were allotted so few cars, big centres like Toronto which could sell more cars than they could get, would purchase cars from the U.S. dealers and ship them across the line.

Which brings up an interesting question.
A Marti report would probably show the original selling dealer as Buffalo NY (or somewhere else for that matter) but the car was in reality sold new from a Canadian LM dealer.

BUT, as most in this thread agree, does it really matter?

Doug M

quote:

I seem to recall there was an estimate of about 580 Panteras that were actually 1973 models. This figure may be incorrect, so don't hold me to it. My 1973 serial number 5169 was built in March 1973 and has the "L" front bumper, but has the old style two pod dash. I also recall another 1973 Pantera serial number 5139? that had the same dash and bumper combination.

My 1973 Pantera (# 5181) is an "L" with the Dual Pod Dash. According to Chuck Melton, it is one of 8-10 Panteras built in the Spring of 1973 that came this way.

Beautiful car!

-G

Thank you. She's about 95% original, down to the paint. Been in the family for 27 years now and has just under 13,000 miles.

Your car is what mine most have looked like new? Very interesting experience for me. Very, very nice car that you have. Thanks for posting pictures.

quote:

Originally posted by jb1490:
Doug W,

I've seen some Marti Pantera reports that have the serialized date BEFORE the released date, and some AFTER.

John

I worked in for the manufacturer in the 90s

it was customary to pull orders ahead for model year (June-July-August)and year end (December) in order to get / maintain sales leadership nubers.

I wouldn't see why that would be done for Panteras but that is the skinny on it!

There are hints that manufacture at Vignale was so chaotic that if there was a problem with one particular car and they needed to make a shipment (they used SHIPS that did not wait around!) that chassis was pulled from the "assembly line" and shoved outdoors until the workers had time to correct whatever its problem was. A different car would be inserted in the line to complete the batch & make delivery. If this is accurate, it may help explain why some numbers have far-out finish dates.
Plus, it's well known that DeTomaso NEVER threw anything away that he could eventually sell; prototypes languished in the factory junkyard for years before actually being finished and sold. The crash-test wreckage was even retained and sold- Roland Jaeckel bought at least two of the 3.

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:
There are hints that manufacture at Vignale was so chaotic that if there was a problem with one particular car and they needed to make a shipment (they used SHIPS that did not wait around!) that chassis was pulled from the "assembly line" and shoved outdoors until the workers had time to correct whatever its problem was. A different car would be inserted in the line to complete the batch & make delivery. If this is accurate, it may help explain why some numbers have far-out finish dates.
Plus, it's well known that DeTomaso NEVER threw anything away that he could eventually sell; prototypes languished in the factory junkyard for years before actually being finished and sold. The crash-test wreckage was even retained and sold- Roland Jaeckel bought at least two of the 3.

My pushbutton #1280 is a 1972 and I know several pushbuttons titled 1972.

quote:

My pushbutton #1280 is a 1972 and I know several pushbuttons titled 1972.

What is the build date on the B pillar tag ?

John

One of the oldest Registries list #1280 as a '71 Euro pushbutton. The first '72 in that Registry is #2262.

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:
One of the oldest Registries list #1280 as a '71 Euro pushbutton. The first '72 in that Registry is #2262.

The Detomaso Registry on the Italian Detomaso site is no longer up. They had over a dozen euro push buttons entered as 1972.

It is hard for people to grasp that Detomaso was not Ford and their number system was more of a guideline; especially in the beginning; especially with pushbuttons.

I can see American Pushbuttons all being 1971 as Ford and Detomaso was trying to get away from pushbuttons being sold in the USA for more of a standardized car. This meant all the left over pushbuttons got sent to other countries as my #1280 went to France first.

I suspect latter in production things were sorted but it seems the bastard cars all went to Europe. I can identify over a dozen items on my car which are specific to 1972 cars; the exhaust headers, front uprights, rear decklid etc. Even the trunk release is BOTH on the rear deck AND the door jamb.

Someone once told me Since Shelby made new 1967 Mustangs and licensed them as 1967 Mustangs (when was that, in the 1980's, 1990's) then my Pushbutton must be a 1972.....I say no this justifies what I have been saying.

Shelby made 1967(+/-) Mustangs from supposedly left over 1967 chassis which is the argument. I understand he was latter arrested because the chassis were actually new but bought his way out of it.

But the fact remains that----
Shelby certified them as a 1967 Mustang
The Department Of Transportation certified them as a 1967.

The Pushbuttons pushed off to the side were---
Certified by Detomaso as a 1972
Certified by Italy as a 1972

And mine specifically was certificated by France as a 1972 and now by the USA as a 1972.

The people who say it is not a 1972 but a 1971 are people who try to fit it in a general number order they understand.....because they want to.

Personally, I think the number mismatch s part of the story of who Detomaso was as a company at a period of time. Trying to make numbers fit when it goes against history is to rob who and what they were. Detomaso was not Ford. The Pantera went from the drawing board to production in 11 months. Detomaso tried to keep things in an orderly fashion for the American Ford market to keep Ford happy and sent the left overs to Europe. That is the history.

The dozen or more European 1972 pushbuttons is a perfect example. It is also why you will not find a build sheet in the springs under your seat.

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:
One of the oldest Registries list #1280 as a '71 Euro pushbutton. The first '72 in that Registry is #2262.

BTW, the information in other so called registry for the car #1280 which is mine was not entered by the car owner and the date was assumed for the purpose of getting info into the registry. It makes such a thing not credible.

My car #1154 is a 1972 pushbutton

My car #1267 was registrered in Vincenza (just outside Modena), Italy in 1971. Although most pushbuttons have build dates in 02-03/71 the build date on my car is 05/71 according to the number stamped on the footbox - and 04/71 according to the VIN plate on the dash . I guess an example of the build chaos at Vignale ?

Pushbutton. Or not. What's the big deal? I don't think any other brand of car is talking about the shape of the door handles as being something that important? Reminds me of a Rowan Atkinson sketch, where he says he comes from a parallel universe. He says that everything in that universe is the same as in ours, except...the Mini Metro has a differently shaped gear knob.

Maybe I'm just envious. Maybe not. To me the Panteras mostly got technically better and better, so the later the better. (Mine is a 72, couldn't afford anything later)

Go ahead, flame me... Just my $0.02. I like all Panteras, regardless of the shape of the door handles

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
Pushbutton. Or not. What's the big deal? I don't think any other brand of car is talking about the shape of the door handles as being something that important? Reminds me of a Rowan Atkinson sketch, where he says he comes from a parallel universe. He says that everything in that universe is the same as in ours, except...the Mini Metro has a differently shaped gear knob.

Maybe I'm just envious. Maybe not. To me the Panteras mostly got technically better and better, so the later the better. (Mine is a 72, couldn't afford anything later)

Go ahead, flame me... Just my $0.02.

It is a marker of time when the Pantera was young and shows how they did not follow 100% the general guidelines of the time date format of the cars.

quote:

Pushbutton. Or not. What's the big deal? I don't think any other brand of car is talking about the shape of the door handles as being something that important? Reminds me of a Rowan Atkinson sketch, where he says he comes from a parallel universe. He says that everything in that universe is the same as in ours, except...the Mini Metro has a differently shaped gear knob.

Maybe I'm just envious. Maybe not. To me the Panteras mostly got technically better and better, so the later the better. (Mine is a 72, couldn't afford anything later)


Go ahead, flame me... Just my $0.02. I like all Panteras, regardless of the shape of the door handles

It's not a big deal - but I guess for some reason you just made it .

We were discussing build dates vs. registration dates, not which model is better than the other, I think? The numbering and registration dates of the pushbuttons are just a curious example of how different they can be?

Point taken.

Brgds
Square-handle-Mike

quote:

BTW, the information in other so called registry for the car #1280 which is mine was not entered by the car owner and the date was assumed for the purpose of getting info into the registry. It makes such a thing not credible.

So, are we going to have a rumble after school behind the gym? Yes, there are some little quirks in the production that make "rules" meaningless.

Far more important, IMO, is the fact (as quoted above) that the "registry" may be full of inaccuracies! This lack of integrity in the registry makes one wonder if this isn't the reason Panteras are so under-rated pricewise?

At any rate, we are all on this ride together . . .

coughyellowsquarehandledcarsarefastestcoughcough

cheers,