...Doug and I have toyed with the Idea of 'cutting Down' the pump neck on an existing water pump, see pics.

The RED mark Indicates the Level of the Neck and Top of the Bearing, 1.5" Cut Down. The Blue Mark Indicates the Level of the Hub Height.

The Bad thing here is, to Press the top bearing down the 1.5", even if there were room to move to, the Two 'Sets' of bearings will be Together, increasing the 'Belt Tension' Force/Leverage on the Forward Bearing. Doug knows there is a Short and 'Whole' Bearing Set Available for the Shorty Pump. That is Designed to take the Loads. See Pics.

...comparing the Cleveland pump I hold in My hand to Photos of the Windsor 'Shorty' pump; On this Cleveland pump I see 'circle' impressions in the casting, where there are Drilled Holes in the Windsor Pump, and Drilled Holes in the Cleveland pump, where there are 'Undrilled' Bosses in the Windsor, just a Couple. Leading Me to believe Both Pumps started out from the Same Casting!* Most of the Holes are Correct. Seems all I must do to adapt the Windsor Pump is Drill out the Undrilled Holes and make sure the unused holes are sealed up. As reported in some info I have found. Last the Windsor pump, Minus It's Backing plate, should butt right up to the Cleveland 'Timing Chain Cover'.

We'll see and I will report back Soon. Awaiting Delivery of the Windsor 'Shorty' Pump.

* Excepting for the (2) 'Twin' Bores on both sides of the Intake Port, of the Cleveland Pump.

The 'Hatch' size is Square at 21.0" Height and 19.5" wide, with the Lower, drivers' side corner cut off to clear the Shift linkage and Large Rubber 'Gromet'. You have a 'Cable Shifter'?! Then You can take that side all the way down for a clean looking square Hatch, but must plan for routing of the 2 cables.   

Agreed that it would be far simpler and safer to adapt the short W pump if possible.

That would be my prefered method. I have not put all of the alternative pumps together on the bench as of yet but it would appear that all of the necessary internal components are available to cut the nose on any pump and reassemble safely and dependably.

My only comment right now is if if the "shorty" pump is short enough and if not, if the cut nose of a stock height would offer more clearance then the currently offered short pumps?

As far as how you solve the cover issue, I have no objection to a different solution.

I simply do not know if that aftermarket billet "flat" pulley has a workable offset? It might be adjustable by relocating the mounting position of the flange on the output shaft and/or by fine tuning that with shims.

I am not necessarilly seeing the reason why the fan mounting flange needs that much clearance to the nose casting. I would think something like .100" clearance rather then .750" (or more) as shown is necessary?

...As a Machinist, if It doesn't Fit, I Will MAKE it Fit!! I'm NOT going to Move any Engine BACK, and Spoil the PMOI!!

I'm actually 'Hoping' the 'Flat' Pulley is Wrong! I will use it as a 'Comparator' to Machine My Own, 36 Degree, Included Angle for V-Belt. And I can Make it Smaller (4.9") as the 'Over-Drive' Pulley You now see Mounted. Maintaining the Max. Overdrive. I'm going down to 4.250" Diameter. Cavitation be damned.

I have worked in wood, also! I have Created Dozens of projects, Exclusively in 'Old Growth Black Walnut', 'CoCo-BoLo', and My Favorite, 'Sonoran Desert Ironwood', add 'Honduran/Nicaraguan Rosewood'. I work Only with Precious woods, it makes the Project More Valuable and Most Unique.

You would not believe what I have Created!

Now, Back on Topic.

My lips are sealed. Fingers too.

I was trying to get the dimensions of the "short pumps" but getting details like that is like pulling hens teeth. Virtually impossible.

I suspect that it could still be too tall but I'm not in the mood to go buying all this stuff when I am still trying to clean out unused and never will be used stuff.

Do you have a link to that water pump site? I do not find it in a search.

I am not clear on the assembly/disassembly sequence and if the assembly goes in/out of the housing from the front or the back?

...Good Morning.

The Standard 'Hub' height* for the standard 351C Water Pump is 5.75", the Height of the 351W 'Shorty' Pump is 4.25". Hense, 1.5" Shorter. See pic. For the purpose of eliminating the 'Hump' on a Pantera, the Alternator must be mover back 2.0" and the Original WP Pulley must be moved Back 3.0". With the Shorty pump taking up 1.5", and my plan to raise the hatch mounting surface on a 1.0" Square tube frame, leaves a Clearance Discrepancy of 0.5". I will deal with at the time of the test fit.

*Hub height is taken at the Face/Mounting Surface of the Pulley. pic included and there is this: (the 351W Shorty WP is Listed as a '302-351W')

...when I can compare both pumps, side by side, I will post what I discover. What we already know is, the Windsor 'shorty' pump:

The Intake is on the correct side, Drivers' side, Left Side of Engine.

Correct Rotation, Clockwise when mounted against the Cleveland Timing Cover.

The Majority of Bolt Hole Alignment is Correct. Those that are Not, can be Machined.

The Pulley Mounting Flange is Universal and Correct. Excepting for the Pilot Diameter of 0.75", and Mates with the 'Flat Shorty Pulley'.

I know I can Lower the Alternator 4-5 Inches, by Flipping it 180, and it Only must be Re-Positioned Back 1.0", to Align with the Inner sheeve  of the Crank Pulley. It will clear the Lower Angle of the Firewall at 8 Degrees.

Stay Tuned   

What does the engine side of the W pump look like v. the C pump? It would simplify a solution if the base castings are the same

What impeller is the shortie pump using?

...I'll be sure to let You Know! When I Know.

...Doug, Try This! The Answer is Yes!! Search the Internet and get this:

can a 351w waterpump be fitted to a 351c?

AND This is extremely informative!!

Water Pump Compatibility Between Ford 302 and 351C Engines

The '302' pump seems to be the same as the '351 Windsor' pump.

LAST:

we build 351c water pumps

...On EBAY!

Small Block Ford Extra Short Water Pump 289 302 351W High Flow Aluminum SBF

I have a 302 water pump here, a 351w pump and gasket and the  gaskets do not match up at all.

OK. I've got a 351c pump here apart. What do we do with the bearing assembly? I'm stumped on that one?

It does not look like it can be reduced in size by 1-1/2"? Cutting down the housing is child's play.

What did Ford Racing do with theirs?

...No picture? I assume the Bearing and shaft would be Mounted in a press and the bearings pressed together, pressing on the Inner race. Then Mounted in a Lathe, 'Between Centers', and the Shaft is parted off to length, leaving a shoulder for the Hub to seat on the Shaft, as is Original. Then the Housing neck, that is cut down to your measurement, must have the Inside diameter Bored with a 'Boring Bar' (in a Lathe) to your measured depth, and with a Shoulder to 'Hold' the Twin Bearings in Place and to the measurement!! You'll have to mount and dial-in the Casting on a Lathe 'Face-Plate', to bore it, or on a Mill using a Vertical boring head, and dialed-in. When pressing the Bearings, Shaft and Seals back into the Casting, you press on the Outer Race! And, don't forget the 3 different Sealants! You would Not use Lube on the Bearings to Press-in.

Your problem, after all of this, will be, trying to get the Seals to actually SEAL!

Good-Luck with it.

See my next posting with a Photo and explanation.

...This 'Timing Cover Plate' has been hanging on the wall in My Garage for 24 years. It' off the original 351 Cleveland. When I purchased and built-up a second block, I left this plate of and purchased a New one.

Now I have a 'Model' of the Exact Bolt Pattern, I have to Adapt the Shorty Windsor Pump, Too. The pump is due to arrive tomorrow (Monday).

This endeavor will either GO!! Or NO GO! I'm in it for a few bucks, all returnable. In the Very Least...I will be able to Answer Long Standing Questions, asked over Benches and Bar Tables...for Decades!!

Ladies and Gentlemen, may I introduce one of the First FLAT Pantera 'Hatches'! This 1/8" Aluminum Sheet will be trimmed to Snap right in. But 1.0" proud of the original mounting face with Square Tube.

Looks as if I will be Machining the Pulley as the 'Flat' Pulley, may be too large in Diameter.

Enjoy the pics, I'll get back to you to tomorrow. The Pump with the Blue Impeller is the Cleveland pump for comparison, and it, ofcourse does  Line up with the Plate. The Last Picture is of the Windsor 'Shorty' Pump.

...The Bracket for Lowering the Alternator, is on the way. I will space it Back the 1.0" to Align with the Crank Pulley.

This set of pictures shows the bulkhead face with a Straightedge.

On top of the Vinal, it is 1-1/4" from the Mounting face of the original cover.

You can get an idea of how far back the Pump Sheave must be Adjusted to.

...One square tube can be seen at the Bottom Channel, the hatch will mount to the front face. See, once the Alternator is lowered 5-6 Inches and back 1", there is more than enough clearance for the Flat Plane.

Questions?...I'll be Here.

...If one still has the AC Compressor still in place, Moving the Alternator Down is Not Doable.

In the beginning, Did I say this would be a DIY Do-It-Yourself Project! Well I bit my Toung. Should have wrote Best to Hire Your Local Machinist. he'll Know What to Do!! 

@marlinjack posted:

...No picture? I assume the Bearing and shaft would be Mounted in a press and the bearings pressed together, pressing on the Inner race. Then Mounted in a Lathe, 'Between Centers', and the Shaft is parted off to length, leaving a shoulder for the Hub to seat on the Shaft, as is Original. Then the Housing neck, that is cut down to your measurement, must have the Inside diameter Bored with a 'Boring Bar' (in a Lathe) to your measured depth, and with a Shoulder to 'Hold' the Twin Bearings in Place and to the measurement!! You'll have to mount and dial-in the Casting on a Lathe 'Face-Plate', to bore it, or on a Mill using a Vertical boring head, and dialed-in. When pressing the Bearings, Shaft and Seals back into the Casting, you press on the Outer Race! And, don't forget the 3 different Sealants! You would Not use Lube on the Bearings to Press-in.

Your problem, after all of this, will be, trying to get the Seals to actually SEAL!

Good-Luck with it.

See my next posting with a Photo and explanation.

   

Picture? Have three.

This is the bearing/impeller assembly. The seal is on the bottom of the bearing.

I am unclear how this thing is assembled? It looks like it is a hollw barrel with sealed bearings at each end and I see a retaining ring at the top of the top bearing.

It needs to be shortened 1-1/2". If it can't be, then it is an no-can-do.

@panteradoug posted:

OK. I've got a 351c pump here apart. What do we do with the bearing assembly? I'm stumped on that one?

It does not look like it can be reduced in size by 1-1/2"? Cutting down the housing is child's play.

What did Ford Racing do with theirs?

...Doug, You Have to Draw It Up!! As In a Precisely Measured Blueprint/Diagram. Start with what You Have and End Up with What You Need. You're Just Subtracting 1.50", but the Boring Must Be Absolute!

Get the Instruments Out, you're going to Need Everyone of them. Don't have them...Beg, Borrow or Steal!

@panteradoug posted:

Picture? Have three.

This is the bearing/impeller assembly. The seal is on the bottom of the bearing.

I am unclear how this thing is assembled? It looks like it is a hollw barrel with sealed bearings at each end and I see a retaining ring at the top of the top bearing.

It needs to be shortened 1-1/2". If it can't be, then it is an no-can-do.

...I would try: Do this correctly or risk shattering the Impeller.

Push the Bearing 'Cylinder' Down towards the Impeller, so the Shaft protruding from the 'Top', is exposed it's full length. Chuck this section into the lathe and Part-off 1.5". BUT BEFORE CUTTING off, first turn the Shaft Portion (that will now become the Hub Mounting Point) Turn it to size for the Hub to be pressed back on it. I recommend a Heated/Expansion fit of .003"-.005" (Kinda Tight) and watch the hot Hub around those seals! Make sense?? Draw it Up!! Then cut the Casting Down...1.5". If the shaft is too hard for the Parting tool, you'll need to use a 'Friction' saw disk. Back to the Lathe with a Carbide Insert tool to turn to a Shoulder, (if) there was one. Turn 'between centers' with the Impeller End in the Chuck, contacting the shaft only. As always, Mind the Heat and what you are pressing on.

'Machining' over the Internet...that's all I have for You.

That Ford Racing pulley is nice. Looking at all of this, used in combination with the "shortie pump" may be exactly what you need for the flat cover?

IF the Ford Racing shortie 302/351 pump can be made to fit simply, that would be the simple solution.

Or, if I can get a "short bearing" replacement assembly from Ford Racing AND it is the same OD as what I have, that would work also in my pump housing.

The pump solution is just not going to happen overnight unfortunately.

Machining my bearing assembly down makes little sense since everything is going to be unknown such as will the seal work and will the single bearing be sufficient? Plus, it won't be easy to do either.

I'd rather have Ford Racing do the hard work and developement work rather then me screw this all up Royally which seems highly likely?

Thanks for posting your pictures.  The next step is just to get a hold of the Ford Racing short 351w pump and see if it can be adapted to the 351c?

The OD of the bearing out of my 302 pump is 1-5/16". The OD of the C pump is 1-3/8". There are all sorts of issues pointing towards a no can do on shortening this pump. The housing is easy. It is the cutting of the bearing that is the issue.

I haven't given up on it yet though.

I think that it is not coincidental that the short pump is 1-1/2" shorter then stock, that pulley is machined back for the correct amount of offset and the number that I came up with needed for the flat bulkhead is 1-1/2" shorter? I don't think that is all magic?

There is seemingly always a complication in stuff like this. I didn't expect it to be the bearing design.

It seems to me that one of the reasons for the long bearing assembly in the water pump snout, and the lengthy bearing assembly (that Doug showed in his picture, a few posts above) is to react the sideways loads on the water pump shaft caused by the belt tension.

Nevertheless – if you could find robust bearings, you could mount them inside a shortened sleeve (with a slight interference fit for the whole assembly). This would require very precise boring for a consistent fit.

Or you could  just make a spacer tube (like a crush sleeve) that fits between the two bearings.

The shaft, seal and the inner bearing would press in from the impeller side, and the outer bearing would press in from the snout side.

It seems like the seal is the most critical part, to keep water out of the whole assembly…

But all this is just a guess from looking at Doug’s picture.

Doug - if you take the snap ring off of the non-sealed side, can you get a puller on the seal & both bearings, or mount it in a press?

At the moment, I do not see how to remove the "snap ring". It appears to be a press on and there is no way to get under it with a gear separator that I can see?

It seems apparent that it was never intended to be disassembled?

It does appear engineering wise, that if the shaft is shorter, then it likely is not necessary to need this length of this long bearing assembly to support the shafts axial loading?.

This is where I came to the conclusion that the "technology" being currently used on EXISTING short nose water pumps is the way to go. The wheel does not need to be reinvented. It still can only be round, no matter how abstract of a thinker you are?

Therefore, THE SOLUTION IS to use an existing short nose pump on a Cleveland so I repeat my question, AGAIN, can the existing short 351w pump be adapted to the Cleveland very simply?

I'd prefer to seek out the existing knowledge base on this subject rather then NEEDLESSLY repeat the same course of exploration. For that, it is just letting this play out to DISCOVER something that already exists, but not in the avenues known to me (as of yet) ?

That is where I am ATTEMPTING to look, so far, unsuccessfully while ATTEMPTING to not interfere with Marlin's thread. Too late for that I guess? OOPS!

He can't get me with a stun gun. I'm too far away.

Here are some pictures of my 351c water pump housings. Maybe that will keep all of you off of the subject and totally distracted?

It is pretty. I guess I'm going to mess it up soon?

...Doug! You're 'Half-way Home'!! How about getting a 'Short' Pump Bearing Assembly from CVF Racing Water pumps, Rebuild Kit? If the Bearing Diameter is Larger, Bore the Casting to fit. If Diameter is Smaller, turn a 'Sleeve' on the Lathe, use Locktite RED.

I want to see You Succeed!! Call them up, I'll bet they can help You! Perhaps they would be willing to Custom Build a Bearing Assembly for You, Or, Already Have One in Stock! 'Ask and Yea Shall Receive'.

When it comes to taking Measurements for Cutting the Casting Neck. I Quote..."You Better be Right Mister! You Better Be Right!!

The Shorty Pump arrives in a few hours! You will hear from Me soon.

@marlinjack posted:

...Doug! You're 'Half-way Home'!! How about getting a 'Short' Pump Bearing Assembly from CVF Racing Water pumps, Rebuild Kit? If the Bearing Diameter is Larger, Bore the Casting to fit. If Diameter is Smaller, turn a 'Sleeve' on the Lathe, use Locktite RED.

I want to see You Succeed!! Call them up, I'll bet they can help You! Perhaps they would be willing to Custom Build a Bearing Assembly for You, Or, Already Have One in Stock! 'Ask and Yea Shall Receive'.

When it comes to taking Measurements for Cutting the Casting Neck. I Quote..."You Better be Right Mister! You Better Be Right!!

The Shorty Pump arrives in a few hours! You will hear from Me soon.

I would love to see you disassemble that new short pump to see what they did with the bearing but would never ask you too?

A short bearing assembly is all that is needed, and some plywood for the cover!

Cutting the neck of the casting is not even a high school shop project. Maybe a sixth grade thing? But the bearing, don't mess with the bearing! Not only is it a can of worms, it's probably radioactive too!

...NO need to disassemble any Short Pump!! I have It taken care of.

...I just received the 351 Windsor 'Extra Short' Water Pump, late this evening.

The Hub Height is at 4.375" Making it shorter by 1.375" from the Clevelands' 5.75". 1/8" Higher than expected.

After a thorough Inspection and Comparing, For this Machinist the Verdict is...

This Adaptation is Doable! With WORK! Well Planned WORK!

6-7 Major Bolts Line-up perfectly, 3 bolt holes in the Block, do Not and will need to be Plugged. And I will be Machining a Specialized Smaller Pulley.

The 'Heater' Port, only on the Cleveland Must Be Blocked-Off. The Pump will still Circulate as Intended, from the Radiator, through the Block and Heads.

Saturday, I took the Kat out for a 'Final' run. Tomorrow I start tearing eveything Apart!

No Doug! Not 3/4" Plywood!  1.0" Square Aluminum Tubing .125" wall! The Alternator will be Lowered.

The Impeller with a Back-Plate is Larger.

I'll take Photos, and keep in Touch. This is Going to Be Most Interesting! Photos and Measurements are coming, stay Tuned.

The Pic, the Target...A Flat Hatch.

All the Best,