Some good...some bad! It passed the MoT test ... But it over heated on the way home.

Are you using a correct 351C thermostat with the hat? Sounds like you could have a 351W thermostat which is allowing the water to merely circulate through the engine without forcing it to the radiator. Marlin Jack on this board sells the correct thermostat with a precision machined hat.

I don't think I explained that very well...the is water in the lower tank but I can't see the upper tank but I think that's just for expansion anyway..the pipes going towards the front of the car are hot..but the ones returning to the radiator are cold...is there an electric pump or is it belt driven, is it possible I've got and air lock? Coolant is not leaking anywhere either so I'm stuck...but I do have an mot!...they must have missed the cracked windscreen that I'm still waiting on the replacement.

Great to hear you are legal...too bad on the roll back home

the original coolant system is a belt driven water pump off the engine's front pulley

Congratulations on you getting the MOT, not an easy accomplishment in the UK.
Did the water tank spit out water or did it read high on the temp gauge?
The water pump is driven off the engine pulley with a belt that also drives the alternator. If your battery was charging / amp meter reading or alternator lamp not on, your belt is most likely installed and running. Water pumps generally leak when they fail, they normally don't stop moving water.
The thermostat being stuck closed is the most common reason for over heating. The 351c thermostat is unique to this engine and if the incorrect one is used, it can also cause overheating. Have a look at George's post in this link which have pictures..
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...50045562/m/346105744

A stuck thermostat will cause overheating pretty quickly. Remove the engine cover over the air filter, remove the air filter and you should be able to see / touch the engine water outlet pipe and see where it connects to the water tank. Start the car and let it idle, watch the water temp gauge (hopefully the water temp sensor is located in the engine block right next to where the water outlet pipe bolts to the engine, which holds the thermostat). After a couple of minutes if you are touching the water pipe you will feel it get a little warmer. When the water temp gauge starts to get near half way, the water pipe will or should suddenly get very warm as the thermostat opens. You can use an IR heat gun if you have one, your gauge may read lower when the thermostat opens. Don't let the car over heat.
In the link above is a diagram of the water flow, only the system tank has a pressure cap.
Or you can look at JFB's post who beat me to it..

You sir are a great help....even I can understand those instruction...as soon as I get back from work tomorrow I'll have a go and let you know...thanks again for the advice

I am so reluctant to ask this because it make me sound like a complete hairdresser...but. In the diagram there appears to be two radiators...I've only seen and checked the one in the extream rear of the car ...the one with an electric fan and a tank at the side that looks like an oil cooler....is this the only rad or is there another?

quote:

I've only seen and checked the one in the extream rear of the car

That's not a rad. It' part of the Air Conditioning system. The little tank beside it is the dryer. The much larger cooling radiator is up front. The heater core is enclosed in a box under the dash and you can't really see it.

Doug M

And don't worry about sounding like a hairdresser. The only way to learn about the car is to ask.

Doug M

So what's wrong with sounding like and being a hairdresser? You don't like my hair?

I seem to have lost some of the links...regarding the access and position of the thermostat...can anyone help please

If you not seeing images in the threads (including Doug's monkey), you are most likely not logged into the forum. I see the pictures and the threads work for me.
If you still having problems, attach a picture of what you are seeing.

quote:

Originally posted by bdud:
If you not seeing images in the threads (including Doug's monkey), you are most likely not logged into the forum. I see the pictures and the threads work for me.
If you still having problems, attach a picture of what you are seeing.

MONKEY? Don't you know an Orangutan when you see us?

The link missing is the one explaining where the thermostat is and how to gain access...other than using a garden spade and crowbar as is my usual preferred access method of access to cars that throw a tantrum after $65k and 1 mile....maybe I should buy a Toyota!

Still can't see the thermostat !

The thermostat is not easy to see or get to on a Pantera, not sure it will show it in any of those links. It is at the front of the engine under that metal pipe that goes to the system tank. 2 bolts hold that pipe down onto the engine block. Here is a picture of mine from the inside with the bulkhead cover removed.

No need to be rash and get a Toyota, life is not that bad. I would try to get to the thermostat from the back by crawling on top of the gearbox. Remove the engine cover, air filter - put a rag or tape over the carb to stop dropping parts in the engine, you may have to remove the distributor cap or disconnect some leads - may sure you note where they go.
Disconnect a pipe from underneath or just all the water / antifreeze come out when you remove the thermostat 2 bolts. It is normally treated as a hazardous waste, don't get it in your eyes, you will know why.
To fill up use the older "green" style anti freeze. The modern stuff is not compatible with the copper / lead / solder in the heater and engine radiator. It also needs to be replaced every couple of years to prevent corrosion.
Picture from the back. Still not easy to see..

it looks do-able..I'll get my spoons and spanners out tonight and have a go...the missing link advised going in through the rear bulkhead...is this not an option without using oxy-acetlene?

If you have the stock style swirl and overflow tanks, you might make a little less of a mess by using a thin piece of tubing and syphening the coolant our of both tanks as low as it will go.

The coolant has to come out somehow - better to catch as much of it as you can versus pouring it out through the radiator pipe connection into your interior.


Rocky

quote:

Originally posted by Pishadeperro:
it looks do-able..I'll get my spoons and spanners out tonight and have a go...the missing link advised going in through the rear bulkhead...is this not an option without using oxy-acetlene?

Put down the torch and crowbar and step away from the car.. Or I will set Doug's Orangeetange on you.
You can get to the front of the engine for changing belts, water pump etc by removing the cover behind the seats. Some cars are different on what panels are installed and some cars have been modified.
On my car I slide the 2 seats forward, tilt the seat backs forward, remove the top seatbelt retractor guides, a couple of thin long screws holding the upholstered cover at the bottom and then lift the complete cover up over thin metal hooks that are located at the top near where you removed the seatbelt bolts. Underneath is a metal dished cover that has many bolts around its edge. You can then see the front of the engine.

I was only joking about the crowbar...I have a fully comprehensive set of mechanic tools

If you want to get the thermostat out you're going to need a bigger hammer

Doug M

Isn't there a Pantera friend nearby that can help you?

I'm not sure the Pantera is the best car to learn on. It is possible to do more damage than good if you're not careful. For example, a relatively simple problem could be resolved easily for an experienced mechanic, however, someone that has no experience troubleshooting a car could be tearing it apart needlessly, thus causing more problems than they started with...

I applaud your willingness to learn but learning over the internet isn't the best method. A friend with a Pantera that can come over and help would be better IMO.

BUT, we are here to help if you don't have a mechanic friend nearby...

Thanks for your concern and your offer of help...but I'm like pork..I Can't be educated and experience over many years has taught me that I'm never going to be a mechanic..that's why I became an electrician...but I have an large advantage now I'm older ...a mobile phone and a great credit card...I therefore am confident enough to be able to f..k anything up and pay someone to fix it...but I get a great deal of pleasure f..king it up first though.
I have an impressive collection of cars And eventually I've got them all running like a cheap Swiss watch....it's been done by a process of elimination...sooner or later I get it right!

Ps I live in Doncaster...nobody here has a Pantera...or a car...but there is a pony in the next village

LOL... I like your attitude!

And boy is it beautiful there!

We are here to help...

You could try the UK DeTomaso owners club, if they are still around, some links don't seem to work.
http://www.detomasodc.co.uk/contact

I am a Brit and bought my Pantera when Phil Stebbings was starting the club. Norman Ashton from Newark with a Mangusta was #2, I was #3. They had nice meetings, good times.

quote:

Originally posted by Pishadeperro:
Thanks for your concern and your offer of help...but I'm like pork..I Can't be educated and experience over many years has taught me that I'm never going to be a mechanic..that's why I became an electrician...but I have an large advantage now I'm older ...a mobile phone and a great credit card...I therefore am confident enough to be able to f..k anything up and pay someone to fix it...but I get a great deal of pleasure f..king it up first though

I have an impressive collection of cars And eventually I've got them all running like a cheap Swiss watch....it's been done by a process of elimination...sooner or later I get it right!

I feel ya, I could have written this myself

Hi Andy, I met Ropger last week, a relly nice but busy guy...I spent an enjoyable hour with him discussing cars and he said he'd call me when he has time and space to look at the car.
Regards to the club...I found the website but it appeared to be dormant for the past couple of years so I presumed it was defunct...as with every make of car I own..all the social meeting are down south...us poor northerners get forgot about..even the Northen Austin Club meets are in Coventry...which is as far south as I've ever been as there be giants down there...and they all speak in "tongues"

quote:

Originally posted by Pishadeperro:
....there is water in the first header tank and the pipes are hot but the pipe work to the rad and the rad itself are clad cold...anyone got any ideas?

Brass restrictor plate missing, wrong thermostat installed, low coolant level and/or air pocket in the system

some/all these conspire to recirculate Hot coolant through the engine but not be able to send any to the radiator

first check is to make sure the Brass plate is in place under the T-stat, and the T-tat is the correct type with the 'bell' on the bottom of the temp sensor doo-dad

can you post up pics?

quote:

Originally posted by Pishadeperro:
Hi Andy, I met Ropger last week, a relly nice but busy guy...I spent an enjoyable hour with him discussing cars and he said he'd call me when he has time and space to look at the car.
Regards to the club...I found the website but it appeared to be dormant for the past couple of years so I presumed it was defunct...as with every make of car I own..all the social meeting are down south...us poor northerners get forgot about..even the Northen Austin Club meets are in Coventry...which is as far south as I've ever been as there be giants down there...and they all speak in "tongues"

I know, I have one of them southerners living with my daugther, still, they make lovely grandchildern

#1154

Ok...I've taken the thermostat out....it opens and close's fine....but is it the correct one for my engine?

Not correct.

Plus it appears to be a 160 degree unit, not what many of us use.

Larry

Your style on the left.

Proper Cleveland style with the additional "hat" on the right.

Is there a name for the correct one...I may have to buy it from the U.S. by someone must sell them in the UK if I knew what to ask for

Marlin Jack on this forum sells them plus the brass plate which sits underneath, on eBay..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/351C-C...?hash=item2a52e4ab23

Do you know what water pump you have installed? Some water pumps have the bypass blocked, mainly Weiand pumps. If you have one of those pumps you can use a regular thermostat, but the bypass could have been drilled... You can also use a plate with just a small bleed hole and then also use a regular thermostat. It is still recommended to use the correct one..
Do you have the brass plate under the thermostat?
This thread has some nice pictures..
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...562/m/7101010346/p/1
The Robertshaw thermostat is considered a high flow thermostat.

Apparentley the correct one looks like the one on the right....so now I'm total confused!!

So did they jam 2 thermostats in there?
What is the temperature markings on the Robertshaw thermostat?
Do you have a brass plate under where the thermostat sits?

The thermostat on the right is the correct Cleveland style to use with the brass plate, and the bypass hole drilled in the water pump.

Some people also like to drill a 1/8" hole into the thermostat itself but I don't really think you need that in the Cleveland cooling design?

I would not worry much about using a 160 thermostat vs a 182. I use a 160. It is fine for this car.

It is almost insignificant in this car. Your water temp will reach 230 to 240 regardless of which thermostat you use.

My idling temps are right around 212 with the 160.

The significant temperature is the oil temp. That is as long as your coolant doesn't boil over. That would be more significant? That shouldn't happen until 252 with 50/50 coolant and a 16 psi cap.

The OIL needs to reach 212 F to boil out the moisture. You will START to cook out other contaminants at 180 but you will not remove the moisture until it boils.

If you don't get hot enough you will cause undue wear and tear, can score the piston bores, over stress other components.

The water thermostat does not control that. Particularly in a Pantera. The quantity of fluid is calculated to arrive at operating temperatures, considering the pressure of the water pump and the distance the fluid needs to travel.

The last photo is one I nicked from another site...I'm just trying to confirm which is the correct one...The original photo is the one I've taken out of the car....I just need info on what type to fit...