The never ending cooling saga

Ok, time to give everyone an update.   I waited until it hit 100 here to verify results.  This turned out to be a new (to this forum) issue.

So after some encouragement from JimF in WIlcox I called up Ron (really nice guy) at Ron Davis Radiators and described my problem.   He said the radiator should have no problems cooling my 427 and suggested I try an Edelbrock water pump.  Next I called Mark the manufacture of the TItus block and asked him what water pump he recommended.  He also suggested the Edelbrock water pump.  Then we talked about the differences between a Cleveland block and his aftermarket block.   That when I had the ah ha moment  that I'll get to later.

While I had requested a Weiland water pump the invoice and description from JimW tells me the one on the left that I'm replacing is a Flowcooler (F) and the one on the right is a Edelbrock (E) water pump.  The Flowcooler has no obvious labeling on it to indicate what vendor it is.

The impeller diameter for (E) is 3.75 and (F) 4.2

The number of impeller paddles for (E) is 6 and (F) is 16.

The side clearances for (E) very tight at around .04 and for (F) it's .125-.188.

The (F) has open area in the center of the impeller.

While the differences are interesting, pretty much any of the normally recommended Cleveland water pumps would have worked.  In fact had the Weiland Cleveland water pump been installed unmodified I would not have had any issues.

Here's the front of my block with the water pump removed.  It looks very similar to what you'd find on all Cleveland blocks.

The stock temp sender is on the front above and the Fitech temp sender is above and to the left.  Both measuring  what I believe to be the outgoing water.  Here's the problem with this picture.  This is a Titus block and it uses a Windsor thermostat and does not have the Cleveland bypass circuit.  That big hole below and between the two temp senders should NOT be there!!!  That's how much water is bypassing the block and going right back out and to the radiator.  This also dilutes the water with what's being returned from the heads causing lower readings than it would otherwise.   

I taped the hole, put a pipe plug in it, and since I'd already bought the Edelbrock water pump I went ahead and installed it.  Ran a few laps around the block, blew the water hose off of the lower water pipe, put 4 gallons of pre-mix radiator fluid in it, bled it, and went to bed.   The next morning with no time to test, packed up the car and the wife and I went to Yuma with the rest of the AZPOCA team.  I was nervous the whole way there and back.  A/C didn't work but it was a very mild weekend for AZ and everything turned out great.  On the freeway there and back it was running mostly in the 180-189 and in traffic with no A/C in Yuma the highest it got was 201.

In the last month I've done a couple of 30 minute runs around town and from ambient temperatures in the 95-105 range it takes 30 minutes to slowly climb to 201.  Before it'd take less than 30 seconds with the a/c on or higher rpm to take it to 215.  I need to take some longer around town drives to see how high it'll get and if it'll stabilize at some threshold that's reasonable.

The a/c is now fixed.  Two coolant leaks at the condenser and an electrical issue at the compressor.   Now I've got an oil leak coming from between the engine and transmission.  The oil dye indicates it's the motor.  Odds are the rear main seal.  We'll see...

In case you missed the unmodified Weiland reference, apparently it comes without the bypass port drilled in it and the TItus block comes without the bypass port drilled in it.  Allowing that much water to bypass the block was a serious cooling problem. :-( 

Rick,

Glad to hear that you finally found the cooling issue problem!  

With the Titus block plugged, it would be interesting to know if there are any coolant temp differences between the Edelbrock and the FlowKooler water pumps.  I suspect that comparison won't happen because it's a lot of extra work!!

John

Rick? I have a 427 Titus on order. Did you take a pic of it plugged before you installed the pump?

id like to request they do that at Titus

Dan.

I'm in Phoenix also, installing AC condenser in the front.  I'll be using the Holley sniper stealth

You don't need to worry about that specific issue.  Mark doesn't drill the hole for the bypass.  That was done by my builder thinking it was missed and fixing it. :-(  Without the hole drilled any Cleveland water pump works.

If you want to come by the house to review my install so you can plan yours feel free.  Plan on taking a few notes. ;-)

@rick posted:

I was surprised when it gurgled at 230 with a 20psi cap on the swirl tank.  I'd have thought the boiling point would have been a bit higher.  No I didn't install the 20psi cap. My Pantera mechanic "upgraded" my 16psi cap...

The Ron Davis radiator comes with two fully shrouded 13 inch Spal sucker fans wired correctly and blowing in the right direction. It's a common radiator used by many Pantera owners.

I may need to confirm there's nothing else on that 25amp fuse.

I would bet that the cap isn't sealing.  Even mechanics do not test for the cap holding pressure and the correct cap for the tank. They just presume that because it is new and just out of the box that it is the right one and it seals correctly.

1.  On many Panteras, the swirl tank cap neck is poorly soldered from the factory, leaving lumps at the bottom internal joint- right where the cap seals. A fresh, flexible rubber on a new cap may seal OK but soon begins to leak with age.

2.  20 psi is too high a pressure rating cap and can wreck a street radiator by "ballooning" the core. Those are for NASCAR with a welded aluminum radiator! 16 psi is all the pressure most street rads are rated for- if that much. Genuine Euro caps will be marked "1.1-bar" which converts to about 15.8 psi U.S.

3.  On stock swirl tanks, the height of the cap neck fitting is for European caps which are a little longer than U.S. caps. To fix both these factory screw-ups, take your stock tank to any radiator shop and have them desolder the tank neck and add a new U.S. made tank neck. Bingo- no cap leaks. I've also seen cracked overflow hose spigots which leak in the same area. This also causes no water expansion into the big overflow tank during running..

4.  Incidentally, swirl tank cap leaks will run down the swirl tank, over the mounting bracket and inner fender, directly into an oval frame hole! This often results in loss of coolant with no tell-tale spots on the garage floor. But of course, the frame is sealed EXCEPT where the top hole is, so the coolant sits there and slowly rusts out your frame! All the above is NOT speculation it has happened to quite a few stock Panteras.

5.  The secondary fix is to drill three 3/8" holes spaced along the BOTTOM of the frame rails, on each side. Splashed up rainwater will also fill the frame rails. I've seen frames full to the brim in wet weather!  Be prepared for a cascade of rusty water, fine rust, sand and god-knows-what else from your fresh drill holes! A long flexible magnet down the oval top hole may find larger debris; I found a broken spark plug inside our car's frame! Such finds may solve an elusive rattling noise....