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Attachments
To answer some other questions. The stuff that blew away with the blasting was filler. Ther stuff that stayed are dramatic welds and holes filled with weld then covered in undercoating. A magnet sticks to that. And a hamer on it will feel solid.
The engine bay at the day of the sale.
Attachments
I may be wrong, but my guess is that the link below is related to the fellow Michel bought his car from, and this may actually be the car itself (a yellow '71)
http://roxboroughinfo.com/pantera.htm
Michel,
My hope would be that the seller will deal quickly and fairly with you in this situation to avoid damaging his reputation with future buyers.
As was done.
quote:Originally posted by Vereeken:
A magnet sticks to that. And a hamer on it will feel solid.
quote:Originally posted by #5754:
I may be wrong, but my guess is that the link below is related to the fellow Michel bought his car from, and this may actually be the car itself (a yellow '71)
The article says that Keith has restored or refurbished over 165 cars and favors Panteras. So Will, I'd say 'yes' there are probably a few out there that Keith has worked on.
http://roxboroughinfo.com/pantera.htm
Michel,
My hope would be that as someone who restores and resells cars, Keith will deal quickly and fairly with you in this situation to avoid damaging his reputation with future buyers.
Thanks, indeed the same guy and probably car (I knew it was originally yellow).
Michel
Michel,
Post the link to the e-bay ad or send it to me, I would like to review it.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vereeken:
Post the link to the e-bay ad or send it to me, I would like to review it.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vereeken:
quote:Originally posted by comp2:
What does dead mean? I see some badly rusted areas, but I have not seen a part on this car which could not be fabricated.
The issue is how much has to be fabricated, weather you are going to do the fabrication yourself, or have some one else do it, how much time and money you have. This is not to say this is the best choice but it also means not all is lost if you can or wish to tackle it.
I only saw the one photo but the frame and the uprights them self are not to hard to repair. The issue I am guessing is most of the car is this way.
My hat off to you sir.
Michel
Michel,
This is indeed sad to see and I like others here sympathize with your plight. I suppose it's a case of when to cut you losses which itself depends how much $$ you have in this car already and what you feel you can recoup by parting her out.
Even with the latest photo's I see a car that can be fixed, let's face it at least you know exactly what you are in for here. You could go out and be back in the same position in 6 months, even some of those cars at $50K you never really know what your purchasing unless there is a complete documented photographic restoration. If this car were rebuilt you would have piece of mind and know exactly what you have... the very best. Patch panels although time consuming are fairly easy to fabricate.
If you do decide to pass then a first attempt at selling the car whole rather than parting out piece by piece may be in order.
FWIW my '74 was a very solid car, had a few rust spots on the front valance, well when I stripped off all the bitumen I found more (or less car) than I bargained for and spent a couple months welding. It's always a roll of the dice.
Good luck,
Julian
This is indeed sad to see and I like others here sympathize with your plight. I suppose it's a case of when to cut you losses which itself depends how much $$ you have in this car already and what you feel you can recoup by parting her out.
Even with the latest photo's I see a car that can be fixed, let's face it at least you know exactly what you are in for here. You could go out and be back in the same position in 6 months, even some of those cars at $50K you never really know what your purchasing unless there is a complete documented photographic restoration. If this car were rebuilt you would have piece of mind and know exactly what you have... the very best. Patch panels although time consuming are fairly easy to fabricate.
If you do decide to pass then a first attempt at selling the car whole rather than parting out piece by piece may be in order.
FWIW my '74 was a very solid car, had a few rust spots on the front valance, well when I stripped off all the bitumen I found more (or less car) than I bargained for and spent a couple months welding. It's always a roll of the dice.
Good luck,
Julian
I did a "keyword" search on this board for '1447'. A few results popped up as this car has been discussed before.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...270049584#4270049584
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...410068044#1410068044
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...890000715#8890000715
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...670023384#5670023384
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...270049584#4270049584
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...410068044#1410068044
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...890000715#8890000715
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...670023384#5670023384
Here is one that is a little more telling of the guys character.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...820073754#7820073754
Weird though he makes these comments about not buying the car if he had done a better inspection originally, supposedly sells the car, then buys it back several months later in Oct 2007.......
Coz is right in what he stated!! I would like him to respond to these allegations but I doubt he is still on this forum.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...820073754#7820073754
Weird though he makes these comments about not buying the car if he had done a better inspection originally, supposedly sells the car, then buys it back several months later in Oct 2007.......
Coz is right in what he stated!! I would like him to respond to these allegations but I doubt he is still on this forum.
Quoting the seller below, it's obvious his idea of fixing it was covering up the problems, which he did very well, and not fixing it at all.
Posted Nov 03, 06 19:34
I purchased my Pantera without first seeing the car and I've been repairing rust and rot for months! But I can fix it cheaply, just tons of fabricating. Rust is hard to repair and likely on most cars in wet climates! I would have passed on my present car if I looked at it first.
Posts: 131 | Location: Bailey, Colorado | Registered: July 04, 2006
quote:Originally posted by Fahrenheit351:
Here is one that is a little more telling of the guys character.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...820073754#7820073754
Weird though he makes these comments about not buying the car if he had done a better inspection originally, supposedly sells the car, then buys it back several months later in Oct 2007.......
Coz is right in what he stated!! I would like him to respond to these allegations but I doubt he is still on this forum.
Sorry to see the problems with your car Vereeken. Most Panteras have some minor rust hiding away someplace but yours is pretty sad indeed. But not the worst I’ve seen.
The difficulty in fixing monocoque cars like the Pantera is finding someone that can do the work and create a proper repair that cannot be deducted so the car stays original and unmolested. This means the person doing the repair has factory parts or exact reproduction parts or can make them. Someone that can hammer weld is also a must if you need to insert pieces into existing parts. I expect Cos must have access to that type support and parts but it is can be time consuming and very costly. On the other hand I’ve seen many Pantera repairs that absolutely scream cheap sloppy repair and you can see them for miles even with undercoat on top of them.
An example of the complexity of monocoque repair. When I was having my front valance replaced along with the front cross member I ordered a triangle part from one of the Pantera vendors. It arrived but it did not have the proper flange areas on it for the spot weld reproductions. Apparently the vendor expected it to be seam welded in!! My repair guy said it was trash and made his own part that was an exact copy of the original. Take a look at an example of how it should be done by one of the masters of monocoque repair http://www.panteraplace.com/page44.htm Note the reproduction of the spot welds that show on both sides.
Absolutely amazing work!
Mike
The difficulty in fixing monocoque cars like the Pantera is finding someone that can do the work and create a proper repair that cannot be deducted so the car stays original and unmolested. This means the person doing the repair has factory parts or exact reproduction parts or can make them. Someone that can hammer weld is also a must if you need to insert pieces into existing parts. I expect Cos must have access to that type support and parts but it is can be time consuming and very costly. On the other hand I’ve seen many Pantera repairs that absolutely scream cheap sloppy repair and you can see them for miles even with undercoat on top of them.
An example of the complexity of monocoque repair. When I was having my front valance replaced along with the front cross member I ordered a triangle part from one of the Pantera vendors. It arrived but it did not have the proper flange areas on it for the spot weld reproductions. Apparently the vendor expected it to be seam welded in!! My repair guy said it was trash and made his own part that was an exact copy of the original. Take a look at an example of how it should be done by one of the masters of monocoque repair http://www.panteraplace.com/page44.htm Note the reproduction of the spot welds that show on both sides.
Absolutely amazing work!
Mike
Have pictures of other areas? I still have not seen a show stopper if the skills money and desire is there. I understand that's a big question but it only takes a moderate metal skill to do the kind of work you show so far.
This was posted before but it would be an eye opener just how far you could go with one. I know this is a GR4:
http://picasaweb.google.com/Ja.../DeTomasoPanteraGR4#
This was posted before but it would be an eye opener just how far you could go with one. I know this is a GR4:
http://picasaweb.google.com/Ja.../DeTomasoPanteraGR4#
That is great work Mike...
quote:Originally posted by Pantera 1887
Absolutely amazing work!
Mike
How many hours do you figure that took ?
quote:
Alot no doubt. I don't think I would go that far with a car but it does have a lot of good photos of different areas. As I work on mine every part looks re-creatable. Just hate to see cars parted out which in scope are re-buildable. It looks daunting, all I saw were photos in the tub area but all of that looked do-able with moderate skills.
The problem I see here is what's not seen. This car is rusting from the inside out. There are many area's that can be fixed but it's the inside area's that cannot be seen that make me doubt it's worth the time and cost involved to repair.
I would hate to see Michel invest the time and money into a situation only to be a temporary band aide in the sense of what will show up 2-3 years from now and have to go through this again.
When I see what this car needs I would find it hard to trust the integrity of the car down the road unless it went through what your post did with that link that shows the repairs that were done to that Pantera and it's refabrication.
It's bad enough we bought a car in this condition, I would not want to have to worry about Michel driving this car down the road and have it structurally unsafe unless it was totally gone through completely. I would not want to see Michel get hurt and know I could have stopped it from happening.
I haven't even removed the interior yet, god knows what I'm going to find under the carpets.
The man hour costs for fabricating and repairs would far out weigh the value of the of this car when completed I believe.
Now if this was a very rare Pantera such as a Push Button, GTS, 4 or 5, then yes, it might be worth the expense involved.
But with this car, I believe we would be just throwing good money after bad and chasing something that would be far more costly than it's worth.
I was faced with this EXACT situation and decided to sell (at a loss 
), my pre "L", so I understand completely. I took a loss of < $5K and estimate I would have 'lost' a minimum of > $10K or higher by going the restoration route. RUST = NOT GOOD
), my pre "L", so I understand completely. I took a loss of < $5K and estimate I would have 'lost' a minimum of > $10K or higher by going the restoration route. RUST = NOT GOOD