(do you remember ?)
Doug, "Yes they can !" (do you remember ?)
(do you remember ?)quote:Originally posted by "72 GTS:
Doug, "Yes they can !"
What?
I actually never tried to push the pistons back, so I can't really tell...
They came with the pistons flush back from BG after the modification.
They came with the pistons flush back from BG after the modification.
It's by far the nicest looking "period correct" caliper available. Even so, my question of whether or not it will fit the 15x8 Campi cannot be answered.
I would take an educated guess and say no.
These could be used on the flared fender cars with the Gp4 wheels I think.
There is a reason why the iron Girlings were used by the factory even on the race cars. It has to be that they fit better and with very minor modifications to the stock suspension?
There is only so much that the rotor can be offset inbound before it hits something on the suspension that cannot be moved or changed.
Probably also, the rules must not have permitted locating the hat of the rotor on top of the wheel hub as we would do today?
That just makes so much sense for ease of access to servicing the brakes quickly.
I don't understand how Girling works at all? Almost all of their calipers are variations of basic modules, as in modular design, and reassembled to suit an application more specifically.
Considering they are on virtually every European vehicle of the era, I would have thought they would have cast up light weight versions in aluminum of the existing iron components?
Bosswrench has mentioned "some aluminum Girling calipers". I have never seen any accept the ones that were used on the Competition Cobras and Ford GT40's. Even so, those calipers are nothing to write home about at all.
I do remember a remark I read where Shelby refered to "Girling's crappy brakes". I think I understand where that remark is coming from considering all of these factors?
The Wilwoods are looking better and better. Thanks for posting. This is like attending a "by invitation" brake seminar and the value of this information "is priceless". Thanks.
I would take an educated guess and say no.
These could be used on the flared fender cars with the Gp4 wheels I think.
There is a reason why the iron Girlings were used by the factory even on the race cars. It has to be that they fit better and with very minor modifications to the stock suspension?
There is only so much that the rotor can be offset inbound before it hits something on the suspension that cannot be moved or changed.
Probably also, the rules must not have permitted locating the hat of the rotor on top of the wheel hub as we would do today?
That just makes so much sense for ease of access to servicing the brakes quickly.
I don't understand how Girling works at all? Almost all of their calipers are variations of basic modules, as in modular design, and reassembled to suit an application more specifically.
Considering they are on virtually every European vehicle of the era, I would have thought they would have cast up light weight versions in aluminum of the existing iron components?
Bosswrench has mentioned "some aluminum Girling calipers". I have never seen any accept the ones that were used on the Competition Cobras and Ford GT40's. Even so, those calipers are nothing to write home about at all.
I do remember a remark I read where Shelby refered to "Girling's crappy brakes". I think I understand where that remark is coming from considering all of these factors?
The Wilwoods are looking better and better. Thanks for posting. This is like attending a "by invitation" brake seminar and the value of this information "is priceless". Thanks.
Disc offset is indeed something to be careful with.
The more offset inwards, the less wheel spacer you might need, but the thicker your caliper adapter will need to be.
Except for that, the offset is both limited by the steering rack pivot point, and as Doug does mention, the possibility your caliper will hit suspension parts.
Weight and sizes:
Front:
Original calipers (2) without pads 10,92Kg
Modified 18/4 BG calipers (2) without pads 7,48Kg
Original discs 280mm solid (2) 13,28Kg
BG discs alloy hats - 304x28mm vented (2) 13,6Kg
Back:
Original calipers (2) without pads 6,55Kg
BG ORA calipers incl handbrake (2) without pads 7,82Kg
Original discs 297mm solid (2) 14,28Kg
BG discs alloy hats - 290x12,7mm solid (2) 9,24Kg
As for the Campi wheels - dunno...
Would depend on the inside (back) shape of the wheel.
I combine everything with 15X8 and 15x10 steel wheels, and that just barely fits - some things get really close...
The more offset inwards, the less wheel spacer you might need, but the thicker your caliper adapter will need to be.
Except for that, the offset is both limited by the steering rack pivot point, and as Doug does mention, the possibility your caliper will hit suspension parts.
Weight and sizes:
Front:
Original calipers (2) without pads 10,92Kg
Modified 18/4 BG calipers (2) without pads 7,48Kg
Original discs 280mm solid (2) 13,28Kg
BG discs alloy hats - 304x28mm vented (2) 13,6Kg
Back:
Original calipers (2) without pads 6,55Kg
BG ORA calipers incl handbrake (2) without pads 7,82Kg
Original discs 297mm solid (2) 14,28Kg
BG discs alloy hats - 290x12,7mm solid (2) 9,24Kg
As for the Campi wheels - dunno...
Would depend on the inside (back) shape of the wheel.
I combine everything with 15X8 and 15x10 steel wheels, and that just barely fits - some things get really close...
I like Wilwoods, but there is a caveat (which also applies to BG calipers). Neither caliper uses rubber dust shields. They're intended for racing and racing calipers don't stay on a car more than a few minutes past the last race. So dust shields are un-necessary. But on the street, they keep brake pad dust, road grime and who-knows-what away from the pistons.
For the guy who already has a set, could you check the BG caliper pistons? For unknown reasons, most Euro calipers including Ferrari, Porsche and Cobra use nickel-plated mild steel pistons, in place of the almost universal use in the U.S of corrosion-resistant stainless steel. Which is non-magnetic. If your pistons are magnetic, they are almost certainly plated and may pit in low (or no) maintenance street use.
For the guy who already has a set, could you check the BG caliper pistons? For unknown reasons, most Euro calipers including Ferrari, Porsche and Cobra use nickel-plated mild steel pistons, in place of the almost universal use in the U.S of corrosion-resistant stainless steel. Which is non-magnetic. If your pistons are magnetic, they are almost certainly plated and may pit in low (or no) maintenance street use.
quote:Originally posted by Bosswrench:
I like Wilwoods, but there is a caveat (which also applies to BG calipers). Neither caliper uses rubber dust shields. They're intended for racing and racing calipers don't stay on a car more than a few minutes past the last race. So dust shields are un-necessary. But on the street, they keep brake pad dust, road grime and who-knows-what away from the pistons.
For the guy who already has a set, could you check the BG caliper pistons? For unknown reasons, most Euro calipers including Ferrari, Porsche and Cobra use nickel-plated mild steel pistons, in place of the almost universal use in the U.S of corrosion-resistant stainless steel. Which is non-magnetic. If your pistons are magnetic, they are almost certainly plated and may pit in low (or no) maintenance street use.
I'm aware of the "race" only consideration of the engineering on the aftermarket brakes.
I'd prefer to go with a "production based" component. Particularly the calipers.
The aftermarket two-piece rotors with the aluminum hats are less problematic.
I do know that Cobra Automotive, which is a race based Shelby/Ford GT/Cobra shop will not use Wilwoods. Simply put, they have found them of a questionable quality for their purposes.
They used the term "crap" for the Wilwood hats and rotors.
At this point in the discussion, no one has dealt with the actual cost of looking "period" correct for these brakes.
It would appear at this point that using the Girlings that are sourced from other production cars is going to be cost prohibitive?
Even the GT5 Pantera brakes at $1900 each from Wilkinson are out of the question for me.
I did see one Pantera that was raced in the US in the early '70s.
It had the US "big Licoln" calipers and rotors adapted to the front with fabricated adapter plates.
Those Lincoln/T-bird rotors fit right on the Pantera front hubs since they were adapted originally from the production US Mustang. Similarl to what is done on the rear of the Pantera by using the '65 Mustang front rotor back there.
This was the system Shelby used on the '68 Mustang Trans Am Coupes.
The most complicated part to put them on a Pantera is the adapter to go from the Girling bolt pattern to the Kelsey-Hayes US pattern.
The rotors were the original 12" x 1.25" T-bird rotors. Those are no longer available that size. They were cut down to 11-3/4"od.
The rear used the 65 Mustang front vented rotor with the original Pantera front Girling caliper mounted to the front available upright mounting holes, and left the original Pantera rear caliper in place to be used as a hand brake.
It certainly is worthy of the consideration at this point?
quote:If your pistons are magnetic, they are almost certainly plated and may pit in low (or no) maintenance street use.
The pistons in the BG's are non magnetic.
quote:Originally posted by "72 GTS:
Kid
What are your wheels specs ? I have Bassett wheels too ... I ´m surprised you had to cut the calipers so much...
Philippe,
The size/specs of the Bassets has little to no influence on the fitment.
It is simply the fact the calipers are quite wide.
Other than that it will depend on how much (if any - I choose not to because of my narrow bodied car) spacer you wish to run. You are building a Gr4 rep (wider track), so you should have less issues.
The backside of the wheels does rub the caliper, and an as big issue, the caliper does hit the valve!
With the mods now made, I got rid of these two issues, but still not 100% sure I can get away without spacer - if not, it will be a very thin one (max 2mm).
If I would have thought about the valves, I had the valve holes relocate before I had the (brandnew) wheels sandblasted, powder- and clearcoated!
A test fit with the ORA's in the back - there is about a 2mm gap in between caliper and wheel only...
Since these calipers have an integrated handbrake system, I wanted to get rid of the for me useless extra mounting holes.
This too is mostly a hand job Doug - a handsaw, some files, a Dremel, and sandpaper ;-)
I need to correct too that I'm running 16/4's in front (same size as 18/4's though, but with smaller pistons), and ORA calipers in the back.
First test fit of the front ones - which made clear the spacing issues...
BG discs - readily available discs, but with custom hats. Undrilled, and no slots for me because the period correct look I'm after.
BG discs - readily available discs, but with custom hats. Undrilled, and no slots for me because the period correct look I'm after.
Kid
The front wheels are 10inches and rear are 13inches wide on my car, I will check when I have the car back to the workshop ...
Regards
The front wheels are 10inches and rear are 13inches wide on my car, I will check when I have the car back to the workshop ...
Regards
ORA's? Bosswrench mentioned these. Have you got anymore pictures to post of them?
Aren't these the same as run on the Comp Cobras and GT40s? They are single pistons?
Aren't these the same as run on the Comp Cobras and GT40s? They are single pistons?
Sure.
What is the diameter of the pistons in the ORAs?
Twice a 44,4mm piston, whereas the original back caliper has a single 36mm piston.
A 1 to 1 comparison of the front calipers (before the mods), which shows how much room the BG's require...
A 1 to 1 comparison of the front calipers (before the mods), which shows how much room the BG's require...
It is amazing that you got them to fit at all. I think you could have used the 18/4. The stock master cylinder has enough volume to power them.
Usually increasing the bore of it is to balance the feel for the driver. I ran a 1-5/16" bore on my gt350. Stock was 15/16. I like 1" at the moment.
Usually increasing the bore of it is to balance the feel for the driver. I ran a 1-5/16" bore on my gt350. Stock was 15/16. I like 1" at the moment.
Brake info from FIA Homologation Paper
Stock Brakes
Girling 4 Piston Front Brake Rear Brake
Pistons / Wheel 4 1
Outside Diameter of Piston 2x 42,85 mm 1,68 in 42,8 mm 1,68 in
Outside Diameter of Piston 2x 33,96 mm 1,33 in
Outside Diameter of Disc 282 mm 11,10 in 297 mm 11,7 in
Thickness of Disc 20 mm 0,79 in 18,5 mm 0,73 in
Length of Pads 93 mm 3,63 in 62 mm 2,44 in
Width of Pads 48 mm 1,89 in 48 mm 1,89 in
Total Area of Pads / wheel 89 cm2 13,8 sq. in 59,4 mm 9,2 sq. In
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GR4 Brakes
Girling 4 Piston Apr-72 Front Brake Rear Brake
Pistons / Wheel 4 4
Outside Diameter of Piston 4x 35 mm 29,5 mm
Outside Diameter of Disc 304 mm 304 mm
Thickness of Disc 28 mm 28 mm
Length of Pads 97 mm 97 mm
Width of Pads 49 mm 49 mm
Total Area of Pads / wheel 95 cm2 95 cm2
Front Caliper part no 31/32
Rear Caliper part no 33/34
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GR4 Brakes
Lockheed 4 Piston Apr-74 Front Brake Rear Brake
Pistons / Wheel 4 4
Outside Diameter of Piston 4x 44,5 mm 1,75 in 41,25 mm 1,625 in
Outside Diameter of Disc 304 mm 11,97 in 304 mm 11,97 in
Thickness of Disc 28 mm 1,10 in 28 mm 1,10 in
Length of Pads 130 mm 5,12 in 130 mm 5,12 in
Width of Pads 50 mm 1,97 in 50 mm 1,97 in
Total Area of Pads / wheel 120,8 cm2 18,7 in 120,8 cm2 18,7 in
Front Caliper part no 507.33.041/042
Rear Caliper part no 507.33.043/044
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GR4 Brakes
Girling 3 Piston Jul-74 Front Brake Rear Brake
Pistons / Wheel 3 3
Outside Diameter of Piston 2x 42,5 mm 1,68 in 30 mm 1,18 in
Outside Diameter of Piston 1x 60 mm 2,36 in 42,5 mm 1,68 in
Outside Diameter of Disc 288 mm 11,35 in 274,5 mm 10,8 in
Thickness of Disc 31,75 mm 1,25 in 20 mm 0,79 in
Length of Pads 114 mm 4,5 in 78 mm 3,07 in
Width of Pads 62 mm 2,44 in 45 mm 1,77 in
Total Area of Pads / wheel 115 cm2 17,825 sq. In 64 cm2 9,92 sq. in
Front Caliper part no 506.3.3.064/065
Rear Caliper part no 506.3.3.066/067
Brake Booster 506.4.2.007
Master Cylinder 506.4.2.008
Adj valve 503.3.3.119
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GR3 Brakes
Girling 3 Piston Jan-75
(From GR4 except rear disc)
Front Brake Rear Brake
Pistons / Wheel 3 3
Outside Diameter of Piston 2x 42,6 mm 1,68 in 30 mm 1,18 in
Outside Diameter of Piston 1x 60 mm 2,36 in 42,5 mm 1,68 in
Outside Diameter of Disc 288 mm 11,35 in 297 mm 10,693 in
Thickness of Disc 31,75 mm 1,25 in 18,5 mm 0,728 in
Length of Pads 114 mm 4,5 in 78 mm 3,07 in
Width of Pads 62 mm 2,44 in 45 mm 1,77 in
Total Area of Pads / wheel 115 cm2 17,825 sq. In 64 cm2 9,92 sq. in
Front Caliper part no 506.3.3.064/065
Rear Caliper part no 506.3.3.066/067
Brake Booster 506.4.2.007
Master Cylinder 506.4.2.008
Adj valve 503.3.3.119
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GR4 Brakes
Lockheed 8 Piston Apr-75 Front Brake
Pistons / Wheel 8
Outside Diameter of Piston 4x 28,575 mm 1 1/8 in
Outside Diameter of Piston 4x 31,75 mm 1 1/4 in
Outside Diameter of Disc 304 mm 11,97 in
Thickness of Disc 28 mm 1,10 in
Length of Pads 101,6 mm 4 in
Width of Pads 49,53 mm 1,95 in
Total Area of Pads / wheel 214,4 cm2 33,23 sq. in
Pads / Caliper 4
Front Caliper part no 507.33.047/048
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quote:506.3.3.064/065
Those must be detomaso part numbers? Nothing comes up in a Google search for Girling.
I'm still working on the installation of the brakes...lol.
Did not like the use of an additional adaptors for the front calipers, so I had the original parts modified, and the steering arms cut off.
I had the rough shapes - yet to become the final caliper brackets - machined. From now on, the only tools used will be as usual a handsaw, a set of files, and sandpaper :-) Yes, there is still one caliper mounting hole missing, but that's because I was not for a 100% sure where to have it drilled yet.
The hand work started...
Did not like the use of an additional adaptors for the front calipers, so I had the original parts modified, and the steering arms cut off.
I had the rough shapes - yet to become the final caliper brackets - machined. From now on, the only tools used will be as usual a handsaw, a set of files, and sandpaper :-) Yes, there is still one caliper mounting hole missing, but that's because I was not for a 100% sure where to have it drilled yet.
The hand work started...
Progress...
