Vintage racing brakes

Nice work, I had no clue where you were going with this initially.

It's a really beautiful set up. I really wish they would fit under my original Campi's.

I did not catch this originally, must have mixed it with another thread on monster calipers. The calipers shown by Kid are the same as on late Mangusta (Girling BR)

Same as big block Cobras and Lister Jag I was told.

quote:

Originally posted by JTpantera:
Nice work, I had no clue where you were going with this initially.

Some more pictures then :-)

The steering arm cut off earlier on covers the bracket. Position of second caliper mounting hole now precisely defined.



I could have had this all machined of course, but doing this manually gives more satisfaction, and in the end more cast-like parts - i.e, as if things came out of the factory this way. Later on the entire assemblies will get powder coated, which will cover up even more this is not stock :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Denis C:
I did not catch this originally, must have mixed it with another thread on monster calipers. The calipers shown by Kid are the same as on late Mangusta (Girling BR)

Same as big block Cobras and Lister Jag I was told.

Well, sort of. The BB street Cobras were made of iron, the Comp Cars got 'luminum. So did the GT40's under Ford, Shelby and Holman-Moody.

When they became the "Gulf's" under John Wyer in '68 (if you called them GT40's then Wyer would sue you), they used the Girling 18-4, and 16-4 which were aluminum also.

It is unclear, but highly NOT likely that any of these other than the stock Pantera Girlings will fit the "production" Pantera wheels.

The size of the calipers pretty much explains that. The stock Pantera calipers are very compact by comparison.

To me, there are three things that any aftermarket caliper needs on MY Pantera. 1) it fits the stock wheels, 2) they are light weight, 3) they are multi-pistoned, 4) the pads themselves have a significantly larger pad surface area than stock, 5) I can afford them!

OK! ...five things, but don't get me started on counting, I'll probably think of more?

@ KID...I absolutely love the adapters that you made!

A weekend full of files and sandpaper...

Perfectly mirrored parts.
Bottom section (that ugly square) still needs to be finished, but the last hole to be drilled first.

quote:

OK! ...five things, but don't get me started on counting, I'll probably think of more?

PanteraDoug, you're a one-man Monty Python show...

With a Pantera, you need to have a sense of humor. It's better too if YOU DO NOT own a handgun.

Done - except for coating.

Quite some hours of work, but happy with the result

And once the entire assemblies coated, it will be hard to spot this is not stock

Beautiful! Tell me this setup fits with the stock 15" Campi wheels...please?

I make you believe anything for $100 Doug... lol

15" wheels yes, Campi's, I dunno... I have no clue of how Campi's look on the inside/backside.

So radial wise they'll fit 100%, but whether they'll fit axial wise - with or without use of a spacer, that really depends on the wheel inner shape.

quote:

Originally posted by Kid:
I make you believe anything for $100 Doug... lol

That's easy. It does seem that I will believe anything sometimes?



I agree that it is the inner profile of the wheel that would determine clearance.

Probably there is enough room in the rear with the 10" Campi to run the 16-4 but the front caliper is so thick that I think not.

Considering what those calipers cost, I wouldn't want to buy a set, then be disappointed that the 8 x 15 Campi will not fit without a thick spacer, if at all?

I think that probably a 1/2" thick spacer would still allow the tire to clear the fender lip but why take chances on speculation?



Where's Bosswrench? What do you think? Will those "Girling" 18-4 aluminum calipers fit inside of that wheel? Do I remember correctly in you stating that you have worked on that setup before?

Few have actually seen or worked on that particular combination in person. Very difficult to find that answer without just experimenting "yourself".

THEN you have to go make adapters!


Incidentally does anyone know if the Girling #'s on the 18-4 and 16-4 calipers refer to anything specifically like the thickness of the rotors used with them etc?

The 18-4 uses the 1.25" (31.75mm) thick rotor, the rear is 7/8" (22.2mm) right?



What was the outside diameter of the rotors that you wound up with Kid? The 12.19" od number keeps popping up but I haven't done specific research yet on this?

Well, I had no clue at all whether I would get this working before I bought the calipers...lol.

For my application, I went for 28mm vented discs in front, 12,7mm thin solid ones in the back.

As for diameters - in the back I went down from 297 to 290mm, in combination with the new calipers/pads, the best combination (imo).

As for the front - the initial plan was using 304mm ones, but had them machined back to 290mm.

Reasons for this were a better use of the available disc area, and adaptor design.
With the adaptor as I had it in mind, I had unused disc surface (on the outside radial wise), which made no sense.

One going for 304's should have hats made with a larger diameter than I did, otherwise there would be too much unused disc surface on the inside of the disc (radial wise), and which is what I would do if I were to do this again. And since alloy is much lighter than steel...

Have the 304's machined back down to 290mm saved me 780Gr/disc.

I worked on iron-caliper Girling GR-3 brakes on a non-GR-3 car with Gotti 15 x 10" wheels running Hoosier tires. With different wheels/tires and aluminum Girlings (stock on Mangustas but not Panteras except GR-4s), you simply have to try it. I own a machine shop so yes- I COULD make the combo fit. It may not look 'stock' at the end but that word is never applied to race cars- or their brakes- anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:
I worked on iron-caliper Girling GR-3 brakes on a non-GR-3 car with Gotti 15 x 10" wheels running Hoosier tires. With different wheels/tires and aluminum Girlings (stock on Mangustas but not Panteras except GR-4s), you simply have to try it. I own a machine shop so yes- I COULD make the combo fit. It may not look 'stock' at the end but that word is never applied to race cars- or their brakes- anyway.

I did that with a set of Lincoln/Big Ford/Thunderbird calipers on my 68 GT350.

In order to get the calipers to clear the inside the wheel, they had to machined down to clear.

They looked beautiful and cleared but the first time I tried the brakes the caliper cracked through the casting into the piston bore.

It had been machined down so far that the hydraulic pressure from the brake system cracked the cast iron caliper.

Those aluminum Mangusta calipers are the same I believe as on the big block 427 comp Cobras.

Big bucks just for that reason.

Comes back to Wilwood or leave them stock. I would like to run 1.25" front rotors and go with vented in the rear with the hats over the flanges.

Using any kind of Girling brakes is just too expensive for little gained.

I don't need to satisfy the vintage racing rules.

I saw one US raced Pantera (pictures) with the 67 Tbird calipers and rotors adapted.

I'll go that route if I can find the aluminum calipers. So far they have been very elusive.

I'm not sure I like the configuration of the adapter they would need though?

Girling are 3" center to center and the KH are 5". That is actually so close it makes the adapter complicated to make.

Wilwoods are simpler, can be purchased with the right 3" bolt spacings and any hat can be made to use any rotor that they make.

Lots of weight savings there, just whether or not the calipers clear the wheels?

I, like Kid, like the "engineering challenge" to make everything fit and work.

We will see. Perfect time wise to do it. Temperature wise, the garage is too cold. I mean after all it is 18 F outside with 50 mph winds?

Radiant heat in the floor would have been perfect. Turn on the "happy light" and I'd think I was in Florida.

I could even dump all the glass bead from the blast cabinet on the floor and think I'm on the beach in Miami?

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I, like Kid, like the "engineering challenge" to make everything fit and work.

Isen't driving a DeTomaso one big challenge...

Hi Kid
Did you make drawings of your parts ?
cheers
Philippe

Philippe,

For now I only have the basic drawings of the alloy blocks I started with, but can see to make some time to put the finished pieces on paper, or at least for instance the most important dimensions and sizes like for instance the bolt pattern etc...

quote:

Originally posted by Kid:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I, like Kid, like the "engineering challenge" to make everything fit and work.

Isen't driving a DeTomaso one big challenge...

No I don't think so. Stock L's are relatively trouble free. Issues develop when they get "modified" or "improved".

By the time the L was in production Detomaso pretty much had it all solved.

Well, mine is for sure a challenge, and I don't even drive the thing (for now)...lol

Rear hubs are out for the last necessary mods to get the rear brakes fit (I needed a drill press, which I don't have). Hopefully I got the measurements right, or they are wasted, ha, ha...