what is the correct intake if..........

The short track/circle track guys seem to like the shorter ratios for some reason.
From what I have seen, as a group they tend to go against the grain.
As far as the intake and cam goes, what is the intent of the engine?

road racing ... 6476 I'm turning into a gt4 for club and track events. The car is too rusted to restore to original .. not sure if we are using the 1.65's I have 2 sets ... the intake I have I need to check the numbers but dont remember it having a water outlet. Its an SVO number to match the heads.


R

Ron,

Give your mechanic a call, or Mark McKeown, let them spec a cam for you, there shall be no ideal cam off the shelf for your application. So have one made.

It is common these days to juggle rocker ratios, thats why there are 2 companies specializing in race car rocker arms (T&D Machine and Jessel) and a third (Crower) also competing in that market. Let your cam grinder specify the rocker ratio too. There's no need to make those decisions when you're paying an "expert" to make them for you. Dan Jones can provide an explanation if he catches this topic.

The C302 heads (you lucky guy) can route the coolant outlet 3 different ways, into the block Cleveland style, into the intake manifold Windsor style or out the front. Theres a nifty remote thermostat housing on the market, offered by CHI and at least one other company, that mounts to the top 2 water pump bolts to provide a nice t-stat housing & outlet for applications like yours if the intake lacks a coolant outlet (the SVO intakes for yuor application did not have a coolant outlet, the NASCAR boys plumbed the coolant out the front of the heads). HOWEVER, there is an intake manifold made by good ol' Vic that is made exactly for your application, and it includes the Windsor style coolant outlet / t-stat housing.

your friend on the DTBB

The intake(s) with integral waternecks that were made for C302Bs and offered by FMS were the M-9424-D351 (9.2" Deck) and the C351 (9.5" deck). Here's an example I'm selling. The AHII is also an option that has slightly different runner and plenum characteristics.

KellyC351 Intake

I have a Cleavor set up with the C302B's and I'm using a Manifold made for Ford by Roush that has the water neck on the intake

yeah, I remember the intakes in Kelly's link now, I stand corrected. They did have the coolant crossover in the manifold. 50 year old guy trying to remember 20 year old parts. that's my story & I'm sticking to it.

Your friend on the ....

what do we call this place now.....

the PIDC

> Also whats the necessary mods needed to install the JESEL rocker system in a
> set of these heads ? is it worth the work ?

There are bolt on rockershaft systems available, and also paired rockers
(two rockers paired on a common shaft). Only necessary if the spring rates
and RPM are high enough.

> Cam selection ... I dont have much faith in the cam co's ..... I want a solid
> roller ... we are running 11 to 1

11:1 is low compression for many solid roller grinds. You'll likely be
looking at a cam with narrow lobe centers. 105 degrees or so would
be best with duration to suit your RPM range. Lift will likely be 0.650"
and you'll probably want a circle track lobe versus a drag race lobe.

> Also why would the used heads I purchased ... have 1.63 rockers .. i thought
> factory was 1.73..

The standard ratio is 1.73:1 but there are also 1.65:1 and 1.8:1 ratios
(and others). The exhaust is relatively insensitive to lift but is
sensitive to duration. Many builders like to run a shorter rocker on
the exhaust side.

> The C302 heads (you lucky guy) can route the coolant outlet 3 different
> ways, into the block Cleveland style, into the intake manifold Windsor
> style or out the front.

Yup. I'm using the one from PME, taking the water out the front of the
heads. My C302B's were never drilled for the 351W water passage so we
decided to go out the front.

> Theres a nifty remote thermostat housing on the market, offered by
> CHI and at least one other company,

The other company is Price Motorsport Engineering near Indy.

> HOWEVER, there is an intake manifold made by good ol' Vic that is made
> exactly for your application, and it includes the Windsor style coolant
> outlet t-stat housing.

That would be the Victor AH-II. Also the Motorsport D-351 would have the
integral waterneck. The D-351 was prefered by short track guys.

Dan Jones

George Dan thanks .... I have to get back down to see Charlie Olsen to see which intake # was there .. The heads and intake were ion a high hp drag car ... I want to go road racing. only problem is the intake it has a bunch of nitrous thread o lets installed on the runners. so they have to be grinded and filled .. it may be better to get another intake.

Was there an intake that was lower to match the C302b head ???

again thanks guys.

Dan do you have any Oliver rods ?? Cranks ?? for sale ?

Ron

There is a small port Weber intake Hall makes (for the A3's). It will definately fit and chances are yout heads were opened up a little bigger at the gasket surface and you won't have a terrible mismatch to deal with.
Of course it is for a Cleveland and has no water ports.
It is $650 and can be used as an IR FI setup with bolt on throttle bodies. The complete setup from Redline, inclusing thier big port manifold (which you could resell) is $4250.
I have not purchased any FI yet.
Seperately the throttle bodies are $650 each (you need 4), Hallteck is $850, plus fuel rails, injectors and harness.
There is a plug it in and run it program in the computer already and you can tune it to your own program with a laptop in the car.
Eventually I'm going to go to it. I'm still reading through the setup instructions to find the pitfalls.
I doubt it makes 500hp out of the box with generic settings but eventually I'll find out.
Of course this depends on finding another money tree out there somewhere. It isn't here in Westchester, maybe it's in Rockland?

Excepting a lot of mod work, I think you're SOL. To my knowledge, the only low profile intake made for high port FMS heads was the Edelbrock M-9424-A331. It's essntially a Torker for A3 (1 3/4 wide port) port sizes, not C302B. They would need epoxy work on the sides but the floor and roof would match.

You could try to mod a Cleveland intake. Most 2v intakes don't have a runner to suuport the performance you're likely looking for. 4V intakes take a bunch of work.

As a suggestion, though I've never seen one, I understand Scott Cook (try 335 series web site)makes a dual plane intake for the CHI heads that may have a port size and position that is closer.

Good luck.

Doug,

My goal is to start the car with a single 4 and then go on to webers and ultimately FI but yes the money tree stopped growning here in the since COWBOY GEORGE got in office. So we will see .. I have not done any research .. but I'm going to see how much work its would be to convert the 4V weber to indipendent runner FI and go that route.
Panterror,

Thanks I'll check those leads out and see what route to take ...

Ron

If you are looking for an Weber IDA intake for FI or Carbs, and C302B heads, I can help with the intake all 9.2 and 9.5 deck combinations.

Kelly

Yes that would be the best. I have a 9.2 G351SVO block with C302B heads being built.

I want a IR intake for EFI ...would it have the cross over tube and water neck like a windsor ??

email me with $$ or if you prefer to post thats OK also.

ronmarl@optonline.net

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by Panterror:
If you are looking for an Weber IDA intake for FI or Carbs, and C302B heads, I can help with the intake all 9.2 and 9.5 deck combinations.

Kelly

You brought up an intersting subject Kelly. I had two of the A331 "torker" FMS intakes. One went with an engine that I sold and the one I have left is a small port.
I was told by John Vermersch that although it says Ford etc on the outside, it wasn't cast for them.
Apparently it's a cheater that was made to made to port match to the small C heads.
Even the plenium under the carb is much smaller in volume.
It most likely is a one of a kind. For a race application it is what should have been made so you could open iy upnywhere you want.

Ya-know, anything is possible in regard to specials in those days. The race teams asked for a lot of stuff outside the norm and often were accomodated by either Ford or Ford's suppliers. This is the one I was referring to. I've had six of these through my hands and still have one. I actually had one that was unported that had ports mid way between the A3 and C3 port width. I didn't know if that was just the way they were cast or not.

Kelly

As far as the IR intake, you can have it pretty much any way you want it. Have a look at the castings below. They can be machined 9.2 or 9.5 and also have the runner internals ball end milled to perfection. I'll contact you off board when I get back. I make them in small lots so they're not cheap compared to production intakes but much less expensive than custom sheet metal or modifying another intake (if you value your time at all).

Kelly

Here's what the "small port" A331 looks like. From the oustside, no differences.

I think that you can see the size of the runner in the plenum here. You can't really see the floor but it's been filled something like 1/2".

The real signifigance to me was the size of the runner exit, check this one out. You can port this thing to fit just about any of the A3, B3, C3 heads.
I think it weighs about 5 pounds more then the same maifold for the A3 heads.
That should give you some indication of how much fill there is.
I wonder if they made any magnesiums? I haven't come across any yet.

quote:

Originally posted by Panterror:
Ya-know, anything is possible in regard to specials in those days. The race teams asked for a lot of stuff outside the norm and often were accomodated by either Ford or Ford's suppliers. This is the one I was referring to. I've had six of these through my hands and still have one. I actually had one that was unported that had ports mid way between the A3 and C3 port width. I didn't know if that was just the way they were cast or not.

Kelly

I had one of these new in the box. I traded a set of 7 & 8" Campi wheels for it. I got this and a magnesium Doug Nash split manifold for Autolite inlines.
It was a pretty good deal for me.
My ports were A3 ports. It looked just like this pic.
I thought that it pulled pretty well. The Edelbrock would come in around 4000. This would come in around 3500.
Gary Hall was telling me that there was only one order (of 100) made by Edelbrock for Ford.
I called John Vermersch (chief operating engineer of FMS) and he agreed.
It sounds like there are a few more then that kicking around now though.

Wow, never seen an A331 with a C3 series port. Thanks for the picture. I had heard the same thing about there being a run of 100 or so. I was bit skeptical thinking that I'd had my grubby hands on 6% of the lot. You mentioned Doug Nash IR and Autolite inlines. Ever run them? I have a bunch of inline stuff. I liked fooling with them in IR configuration.

Kelly & Doug, shame on you guys for taunting me with the pictures of your A331 intakes like that. I've been trying to get a line on one for a year now.

George

quote:

Originally posted by Panterror:
Wow, never seen an A331 with a C3 series port. Thanks for the picture. I had heard the same thing about there being a run of 100 or so. I was bit skeptical thinking that I'd had my grubby hands on 6% of the lot. You mentioned Doug Nash IR and Autolite inlines. Ever run them? I have a bunch of inline stuff. I liked fooling with them in IR configuration.

I could never put the intake and the carbs together as a set to run them.
I had the carbs first and sold them for lack of a manifold, then couldn't get a set of carbs when I had the manifold. Very frustrating.
Not enough info available on results, none actually.
I strongly suspect they would run just like the Webers. Streetable but not really a street setup.
That's a setup that will run under the stock deck of a Pantera. No small port manifolds available for them. Lots of Devcon needed for them.

Sorry George. I'm a bad boy. I'm not going to say that I have the only A331-C3 but never saw another. I think it's like the horse of a different color...only one of 'em and 'e's it.

> Was there an intake that was lower to match the C302b head ???

There were a series of intakes with C302B ports sizes but all were fairly
tall and won't fit under a stock screen. Kelly Coffield has a Weber/EFI
lower that will fit under a stock screen with short stacks. There were
also some rare versions of intakes like the A331 that may have had smaller
ports. I have a set of A3 heads that had narrower ports, as well. I've
also heard of taller versions of the A331 that were more like a Scorpion
than a Torker (the Scorion was a taller version of the Torker, the Edelbrock
A331 was a high port version of the Torker). Apparently these were made for
specifc race teams.

If you're going racing, I'd run one of the taller intakes with a taller
screen.

> Dan do you have any Oliver rods ?? Cranks ?? for sale ?

I'm using my Oliver rods but I do have a set of 6" Carrillos, a forged steel
crank and Wiseco domed pistons (4.030" bore by 3.5" stroke). The assembled,
balanced reciprocating assembly is in an XE block at the moment but I'd be
willing to sell the assembly separate from the block. I also have a dry
sump set up.

> I had two of the A331 "torker" FMS intakes. One went with an engine that I
> sold and the one I have left is a small port.

Can you turn it upside down and look for a 4 digit number?

> I was told by John Vermersch that although it says Ford etc on the outside,
> it wasn't cast for them.

Interesting. I've heard there were some variations on these intakes
for specific race teams but I would have thought they would work through
Ford. Maybe they went directly to Edelbrock who cast the Torker version
of the A331. Roush cast the C302B specific version.

Dan Jones

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel_Jones:




Can you turn it upside down and look for a 4 digit number?

Sure can, 2760.

> I was told by John Vermersch that although it says Ford etc on the outside,
> it wasn't cast for them.

Interesting. I've heard there were some variations on these intakes
for specific race teams but I would have thought they would work through
Ford. Maybe they went directly to Edelbrock who cast the Torker version
of the A331. Roush cast the C302B specific version.

>>John thought that it was cast by the "guy" currently casting SVO blocks, at least that's who he wanted to "blame" it on.
As you can see it's just an A331 with small ports.

Dan Jones

George I was going to ask ... but I already know the answer ... IS IT FOR SALE ...DOUG LOL

Beware some day .... and maybe sooner then we think some of these parts may be obsolete ...

Ron

[> Sure can, 2760.

That's the Torker part number. My A331 has it as well. The Scorpion is
part number 2765.

> John thought that it was cast by the "guy" currently casting SVO blocks,
> at least that's who he wanted to "blame" it on.

The cast-in part number would lead me to believe Edelbrock had a role in
it and Edelbrock molds were used, possibly lent to a third party. My XE
Ford steel crank was like that. Ford owned the tooling but lent it to a
third party to make the small batch of cranks.

Thanks,
Dan Jones

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
... IS IT FOR SALE ...DOUG LOL
Ron

It's my only spare Ron. If I find another I'll keep you guys in mind. Since it's now obsolete, it is now a collectors item. That makes them just a little more then just difficult to find.

FYI, If you take the Edelbrock Torker and use Devcon Aluminum Epoxy, you can close the manifold down to what you need and it will work fine.

Doug exactly .... I was thinking of closing up the weber inatke with epoxy and use it with IR EFI .... depending on the cost to cast an intake.

I would think that your manifold could be sold for $500.
Hall has the small port for $650. He does have only one size though, for the A3's.
If your port entrances on the heads are stock size on the C3's then you would have a mismatch on that one too.
I've got an Edelbrock torker closed down to the A3 ports.
There are at least two pounds of Devcon in there and it is about $28 per pound at Grainger.
It works well, is grindable and stays in place so it is a very viable alternative to another manifold.
The main advantage to Kelley's manifold is that you can run two sets of injectors.
One set would be just an Idle set, the second on the seperate throttle bodies would be for wahooing the throttle.
Or you could also rifle bore it and put the throttles plates right into the manifold.
Then you can run the stock covers and decklid.
He's a cleaver kid that Coffield.

PD,

Apologies in advance for the long response but I’ve been away for a while. This may be more than anyone wants to know about these details, but I’ve beat it to death during my intake project. Nevertheless, I’m always open to learning something new if someone else has differing info…..

>I would think that your manifold could be sold for $500.

If you are referring to my IDA intake, it will probably need to be closer to the Hall price in the unported state. The production quantities are just too small to maintain the interest of any foundry or machine shop unless the prices are such. As it is, my suppliers are friends and car enthusiasts themselves and making them is more of a favor than business proposition. With the time and material I have into the project versus the market opportunity, this is not business but more therapy and enjoyment for me. There's a lot of material in my intake ports/runners as cast because I always intended to machine the internal runner surfaces to accommodate different heads, so it had to be material rich. Just the same, they're pretty close to how the old C3 series high port FMS intakes ports came as cast. The upside is you get perfect runner symmetry and very good transitional geometry after machining. With the internal runners cnc ball-end milled ported we’re probably in the $850 range. It's a lot of coin, but not compared to a sheet metal intake (~$2k), or compared to the hours you'd have or save in porting or adapting another intake properly, especially considering what Cleveland IDA intakes fetch to start with.

>Hall has the small port for $650.

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by small port? To my knowledge I have only seen the Hall intake with 4V port and A3 port. The A3 “Hall” intake is a somewhat cobbled up version of the 4V. Extra material was added to the top exterior of the runner so the internal roof could be raised to the A3 height. The roof of A3, B3, and C3 series heads are actually a good ¼” higher (as measured from the deck) than 4V heads. The high port floor however is considerably than 4V (1 1/8” versus 7/16” from the deck). The floor and the roof of the port window were the same on all the early high ports heads, only the widths change. They got progressively smaller from the A3s (about 1 ¾” same as 4v width) to C3 series which were about 1 1/8” widew as cast on the intakes. C3 series heads may have had slightly wider port windows than this as cast. I had a set of NOS C302Bs 5 or 6 years ago but never bothered to measure. I do have a set of raw A3 head castings and their ports are definitely 1 ¾” wide by 2 1/8” tall, however there were narrower versions. Besides that, all C series heads I’ve seen have been ported so who knows how they started life.

>FYI, If you take the Edelbrock Torker and use Devcon Aluminum Epoxy, you can close the manifold down to what you need and it will work fine. I've got an Edelbrock torker closed down to the A3 ports. There are at least two pounds of Devcon in there and it is about $28 per pound at Grainger. It works well, is grindable and stays in place so it is a very viable alternative to another manifold.

IMO, it’s a helluva lot of work. A 4V Torker’s ports are approximately the same width as A3s but as you indicate, need to be filled considerably on the sides and floor to C3 dimesions. Have you tried to adapt a 4V port intake to a C3 series high port? I ask because I have heard people mention that the only mismatch is the sides and floor. I’ve compared a bunch of intakes and found that as they naturally land on the deck, the roof of the 4V runner sits well below the port roof of the high port heads. I mounted a 4V Torker on a 9.2” deck Cleveland with my A3s and the highest point on the external flange was only 1/8” above the roof of the port window on my head! If you try to remove the material from the intake roof in any manner that smoothly transitions to port roof, you break through the external runner surface. The intake face of a high port head is actually taller than a 4V head ( 3 ¾” versus 3 ½”). If you set many of the high port intakes on an engine with a 4V head, the intake flange often protrudes above the valve cover rails on a 4V head. I’ve compiled a bunch of dimensional data for various 335 series heads in regard to intake port size, position and mounting hole locations for 2V, 4V, A3, B3, C3, CHI, Blue Thunder, Yates, etc. heads. I’ve been meaning to post it but haven’t gotten around to it.

>The main advantage to Kelley's manifold is that you can run two sets of injectors. One set would be just an Idle set, the second on the separate throttle bodies would be for wahooing the throttle.

It was actually Dennis Quella who encouraged me to proceed with the intake project. I liked his low profile IR EFI set up and was going to put one on my car. He told me how much work it took to adapt it to high port heads. I thought maybe the world needed another IDA intake. So my primary motivation for making the intake was accommodating high port heads with low profile IR EFI that would fit under the deck lid of a (my) Pantera and other cars without notching or putting a hole in your hood. The injector position on my intake is less than ideal, but even at high states of “streetable tune”, it makes little difference. IMO, same goes for the reduction in combined runner and stack length for the low profile system. In very high states of tune, I would concede this point that it may compromise performance. The injector pockets can be omitted and the intake can be used with tall throttle bodies or IDA carbs if desired. You are correct however, that injectors in throttle bodies and in the manifold is an interesting capability. You can also buy dual pocket throttle bodies from TWM.

>He's a cleaver kid that Coffield.

“Clevor”? Now that’s clever. –Guilty as charged. Always liked 335 series heads.

Kelly

A lot of work and a lot of epoxy. I have a Torker here that I did to A3 ports. I speak from experience. It sure is.
Halls small port Weber is for A3's, so he has two, big port and A3.
The small port is the same exterior molds with the interior or the runners filled.
Personally I am using A3 heads so I need to go no further.
Dan Jones mentioned the two injector per port possabilaty and it is a little intreaging.
I'm doing my research first but I SUSPECT that it is anything but easy to program such a system.
The variables could turn it into a dog chasing its own tail.
Since this isn't a current F1 intake I doubt that optimum injector location or less then optimum is very signifigant.
I suppose that it could only be answered by a battle of the dynos.
That really serves no purpose at this point.
The IR FI set ups are notorious for unexplicable starting problems. I don't know if that was fixed.
I only see the Haltech processor aftermarket. I don't know what Redlines is.
More information is required.
Gotta go workies now, see ya".