Does anyone know if the early 911 boxes are built by ZF?
Steve
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I would think that they were. I had a 89 Corvette, even it had a ZF transmission in it. They made a lot for many companies. ZF is German made.
why do pantera always have zf when other cars like gt 40 repicas & diablos are using audi o16 & 5n and porshe g50 with a few mods done some of these guys are running large hp numbers ?
I guess it has something to do with originality.
I have been discussing other options for replacing the ZF with a couple of Porsche Shop/Racing teams I've known and raced with for years. We are working on a couple alternatives now. Most likely will be one of the G50 series boxes.
We have built Porsches with V8's over the years and have used various Porsche gearboxes in these applications that have withstood 500+ HP easily.
It's something I am seriously considering giving a try.
I have been discussing other options for replacing the ZF with a couple of Porsche Shop/Racing teams I've known and raced with for years. We are working on a couple alternatives now. Most likely will be one of the G50 series boxes.
We have built Porsches with V8's over the years and have used various Porsche gearboxes in these applications that have withstood 500+ HP easily.
It's something I am seriously considering giving a try.
quote:Originally posted by fly:
why do pantera always have zf when other cars like gt 40 repicas & diablos are using audi o16 & 5n and porshe g50 with a few mods done some of these guys are running large hp numbers ?
quote:Originally posted by fly:
why do pantera always have zf when other cars like gt 40 repicas & diablos are using audi o16 & 5n and porshe g50 with a few mods done some of these guys are running large hp numbers ?
Probably because there is not much money to be saved by replacing a ZF with a G50 or something. I know of at least one car that replaced their ZF with a quaife 6-speed sequential transmission that apparently held up to silly horsepower...
Actually Charlie, There are many G50 boxes around that can be had for 2500.00 to 3500.00 with very little milage on them.
And that is way way cheaper than rebuilding a ZF. You can get 3 G-50's for the price of rebuilding a ZF.
The Quaife 6 speed your talking about cost 16 grand.
QUOTE]Probably because there is not much money to be saved by replacing a ZF with a G50 or something. I know of at least one car that replaced their ZF with a quaife 6-speed sequential transmission that apparently held up to silly horsepower...[/QUOTE]
And that is way way cheaper than rebuilding a ZF. You can get 3 G-50's for the price of rebuilding a ZF.
The Quaife 6 speed your talking about cost 16 grand.
QUOTE]Probably because there is not much money to be saved by replacing a ZF with a G50 or something. I know of at least one car that replaced their ZF with a quaife 6-speed sequential transmission that apparently held up to silly horsepower...[/QUOTE]
Are these 6 speed transaxles? Thanks.
Michael
Michael
rebuild labor, gaskets, seals, and ring gear bolts is $1200 if you service your ZF when is first has a problem it's not so painfull but people run them into the ground and do more damage so the cost go up. Lloyd @RBT
But it never is just the ring gear bolts, it's always synro's at 300.00 each, gears at 1200.00 each and a host of other things at major $$$$$$.
Not putting down what you do Lloyd, you are the best at it, no doubt about it. I just don't see where the ZF is worth the money for what it does when there are other choices that do the same thing for less.
The 930 Turbo Boxes will handle the HP and can be had for 3500 to 5000 rebuilt for the 5 speed. They also come in 6 speeds, for a little more. Far less than 16 grand for a 6 speed in Quaife or a ZF.
I suppose if I ever had a ZF that was right from the beginning I might feel different. I have had 2 different ZF's in my car and neither one has been right from the start. But I am in no position to spend the major $$$$$ to find out what a good box would be like. Besides, I've heard too many horror stories already to even take the chance of getting trapped into a major $$$$ bill fixing a ZF after the fact. I'd end up having to sell my car to pay for it. So what would be the point.
I just think it would be easier and cheaper now and in the long run to do a conversion if at all possible. But this is just my personal opinion from putting Porsche boxes to V-8's as I've done several times in the last 20 years.
The box I have now was suppose to have been just rebuilt. Paid 5 grand for it. It needs a 1st/reverse & second gear synro, may even need a gear or two. And that's how it came. That alone would probably cost 5 grand not including anything else that would be found once inside. To scary for me.
I love my Pantera, but not that much, can't afford too when it comes to the ZF. It seems to be the weakest and most expensive part of the Pantera.
I sincerely don't mean to offend anyone here, just saying what's on my mind, what I am being faced with and what I am about to deal with one way or another. Most of you guys know who I am and know that I would give the shirt off my back for any of you and our cars, so I hope you understand I am not attacking anyone here, specially Lloyd who has every right to make a living and do what he does so well.
This is probably the worst time I've ever had to deal with fixing my Pantera, for me anyway, all I can do is cringe at the thought of sending my ZF anywhere to be fixed.
Unless I figure out something, this could very well be the parting point for me and my Pantera.
Not putting down what you do Lloyd, you are the best at it, no doubt about it. I just don't see where the ZF is worth the money for what it does when there are other choices that do the same thing for less.
The 930 Turbo Boxes will handle the HP and can be had for 3500 to 5000 rebuilt for the 5 speed. They also come in 6 speeds, for a little more. Far less than 16 grand for a 6 speed in Quaife or a ZF.
I suppose if I ever had a ZF that was right from the beginning I might feel different. I have had 2 different ZF's in my car and neither one has been right from the start. But I am in no position to spend the major $$$$$ to find out what a good box would be like. Besides, I've heard too many horror stories already to even take the chance of getting trapped into a major $$$$ bill fixing a ZF after the fact. I'd end up having to sell my car to pay for it. So what would be the point.
I just think it would be easier and cheaper now and in the long run to do a conversion if at all possible. But this is just my personal opinion from putting Porsche boxes to V-8's as I've done several times in the last 20 years.
The box I have now was suppose to have been just rebuilt. Paid 5 grand for it. It needs a 1st/reverse & second gear synro, may even need a gear or two. And that's how it came. That alone would probably cost 5 grand not including anything else that would be found once inside. To scary for me.
I love my Pantera, but not that much, can't afford too when it comes to the ZF. It seems to be the weakest and most expensive part of the Pantera.
I sincerely don't mean to offend anyone here, just saying what's on my mind, what I am being faced with and what I am about to deal with one way or another. Most of you guys know who I am and know that I would give the shirt off my back for any of you and our cars, so I hope you understand I am not attacking anyone here, specially Lloyd who has every right to make a living and do what he does so well.
This is probably the worst time I've ever had to deal with fixing my Pantera, for me anyway, all I can do is cringe at the thought of sending my ZF anywhere to be fixed.
Unless I figure out something, this could very well be the parting point for me and my Pantera.
quote:Originally posted by Lloyd Butfoy:
rebuild labor, gaskets, seals, and ring gear bolts is $1200 if you service your ZF when is first has a problem it's not so painfull but people run them into the ground and do more damage so the cost go up. Lloyd @RBT
Sorry to hear about your troubles Coz. Like the majority of Pantera owners, my ZF experience has been very, very positive! I replaced the seals and verified that it was safety wired when I first got the car. Although we have a number of great ZF repair folks supporting the Pantera, like Lloyd Butfoy, I did that work myself. For preventive maintenance, I just change the gear oil, keep the shift linkage lubed and check the clutch adjustment and it works great. The ZF is one of the most bullet proof parts on the Pantera and the -2 close ratio gearing is absolutely fantastic. When I first got interested in owning a Pantera the fact that it had a ZF and 351C power gave me a lot of confidence that it was the right exotic for me. The stunning looks and sound helped a little too! I realize that all this positive talk is not a big help to your situation but I just wanted you to know that what you are going through is unusual.
COZ, no man, don't give up. You are one of my favorite guys here. It seems to me more and more cars are coming out with transaxle designs even if they have a front engine. Please dude, don't quite cause sooner or later they will be available and adaptable to our cars. Heck if you want, maybe we can work out a real cheapo design. We could take a C-6 and run it underneath a straight axle 9 inch ford rear end with the input shaft facing backwards. Then run either straight tooth gears or a chain drive to hook them up. We may have to sit the motor a lot lower to line things up, but lower is better anyway. Don't bail now when we have a visual on the runway. 
Thanks Mike. Other than the ZF, it's been a great car and I've had a great time with it in every way. Met a lot of great, I mean GREAT people because of this car. But I never have had a good ZF from day one in this car and have had 2 in it.
Right now it shifts without grinding as long as I am slow shifting into second going forward. All other forward gears are fine. When down shifting, I have to go very, very slow into second and give it a chance to whine down before going into gear and 1st is none at all unless I am stopped. I get what feels like a slip and clunking noise occasionally when going from backing up to going forward. Now I think I'm also grtting a vibration in it as well. I'm at a point with it I don't trust the ZF anymore and just waiting for it to finally stop working altogether.
I'm going to pull it over the next couple of weeks and check my clutch disc, pressure plate, T/O bearing and the flywheel and see if anything is going on there. If need be, I will replace everything there. But this clutch only has maybe 8000 miles on it. I'll pull the ZF bottom plate and the side plates and see if if there is anything obvious going on. I have replaced the Slave, Master and adjusted the peddles, master linkage and bleed and adjusted the clutch a 100 times. I am getting 1" of throw at the slave piston and .40 gap between the disk and flywheel. However I notice 2 seperations on the disk, one at the flywheel and one in the disk. I've talk to Greorge at MeLoed and he tells me it's not a seperating disk because it goes into first at a stop so it's disengaging. And he's probably right considering it does shift. I have had others look at it and tell me it couldn't be adjusted any better than I've done 100 times. Other than that the only choice I would have is to send the ZF out and have it rebuilt and I can't afford the major bill that is going to cost. I go into shock when I even think about it. I have changed the oil every 10 months in the last 5 years and am using Redline now. Still doesn't make a difference. The ZF has been the most fustrating part of this car for me and will probably be the straw the breaks the camels back unless I can work something out with one of the Porsche racing teams/shops I've known for years and do a conversion. I'm working on a deal to get it done on a trial basis and pay as I go plan. It's the only way I'll get this gearbox problem fixed once and for all since I don't have another 6 to 10 grand to throw at it out of pocket. I won't keep this car just to have it sit in my garage undrivable because of a gearbox, it will be time to take the loss and just move on to something different. If this one goes, I'll probably build another Porsche that just doesn't have the problems the Pantera does. It's a bitch after having come so far and spent so much money on this car. It's very fustrating and very dishearting. Such is life. :-)
Thanks Mike for caring. The people involved have been the greatest part of owning a Pantera without a doubt.
Thanks DeTom. With or without the car, I'm not going anywhere....
Besides, I'm the VP for the Phoenix Chapter of POCA and have committed to doing the POCA Raffle again next year.. :-) I may give up the car, but I will never give up the friends I've made because of the car. That would be a bigger loss than giving up the car to me.
Right now it shifts without grinding as long as I am slow shifting into second going forward. All other forward gears are fine. When down shifting, I have to go very, very slow into second and give it a chance to whine down before going into gear and 1st is none at all unless I am stopped. I get what feels like a slip and clunking noise occasionally when going from backing up to going forward. Now I think I'm also grtting a vibration in it as well. I'm at a point with it I don't trust the ZF anymore and just waiting for it to finally stop working altogether.
I'm going to pull it over the next couple of weeks and check my clutch disc, pressure plate, T/O bearing and the flywheel and see if anything is going on there. If need be, I will replace everything there. But this clutch only has maybe 8000 miles on it. I'll pull the ZF bottom plate and the side plates and see if if there is anything obvious going on. I have replaced the Slave, Master and adjusted the peddles, master linkage and bleed and adjusted the clutch a 100 times. I am getting 1" of throw at the slave piston and .40 gap between the disk and flywheel. However I notice 2 seperations on the disk, one at the flywheel and one in the disk. I've talk to Greorge at MeLoed and he tells me it's not a seperating disk because it goes into first at a stop so it's disengaging. And he's probably right considering it does shift. I have had others look at it and tell me it couldn't be adjusted any better than I've done 100 times. Other than that the only choice I would have is to send the ZF out and have it rebuilt and I can't afford the major bill that is going to cost. I go into shock when I even think about it. I have changed the oil every 10 months in the last 5 years and am using Redline now. Still doesn't make a difference. The ZF has been the most fustrating part of this car for me and will probably be the straw the breaks the camels back unless I can work something out with one of the Porsche racing teams/shops I've known for years and do a conversion. I'm working on a deal to get it done on a trial basis and pay as I go plan. It's the only way I'll get this gearbox problem fixed once and for all since I don't have another 6 to 10 grand to throw at it out of pocket. I won't keep this car just to have it sit in my garage undrivable because of a gearbox, it will be time to take the loss and just move on to something different. If this one goes, I'll probably build another Porsche that just doesn't have the problems the Pantera does. It's a bitch after having come so far and spent so much money on this car. It's very fustrating and very dishearting. Such is life. :-)
Thanks Mike for caring. The people involved have been the greatest part of owning a Pantera without a doubt.
Thanks DeTom. With or without the car, I'm not going anywhere....
Besides, I'm the VP for the Phoenix Chapter of POCA and have committed to doing the POCA Raffle again next year.. :-) I may give up the car, but I will never give up the friends I've made because of the car. That would be a bigger loss than giving up the car to me.
Coz, I know this may sound insulting and I don't mean for it to, but have you rechecked your linkage?? I have been working on mine for two months now and tonight I am putting in a new trunion bearing. I do know that if you don't have quite enough forward throw it will grind. Also I know it is a pain, but I have always been told to double clutch the ZF as the synchroes back in the day were nothing like a modern transmission. Remember how Steve Mcqueen had to shift his Mustang back in the Bullet movie?? That is just the way it was done.
Please just try moving your linkage forward just a skoosh and see what she does???
Please just try moving your linkage forward just a skoosh and see what she does???
Yes DeTom. Have adjusted the linkage several times as well and have a new Trunion bearing in it. Everything is as it should be adjustment wise.
On a side note, many, many years ago I used to race Porsches with Steve McQueen in California. Got to know him pretty well over the years. It's really ashame he died so young. he was a great guy when you got to know him.
We used and raced for the same shop, Max Bochoski's. (Can't remember Max's correct spelling of his last name :-)
On a side note, many, many years ago I used to race Porsches with Steve McQueen in California. Got to know him pretty well over the years. It's really ashame he died so young. he was a great guy when you got to know him.
We used and raced for the same shop, Max Bochoski's. (Can't remember Max's correct spelling of his last name :-)
quote:Originally posted by Coz:
Yes DeTom. Have adjusted the linkage several times as well and have a new Trunion bearing in it. Everything is as it should be adjustment wise.
On a side note, many, many years ago I used to race Porsches with Steve McQueen in California. Got to know him pretty well over the years. It's really ashame he died so young. he was a great guy when you got to know him.
We used and raced for the same shop, Max Bochoski's. (Can't remember Max's correct spelling of his last name :-)
Holy Cow!! You raced with McQeen?? I just found me a new hero. Sorry for the suggestion I made earlier. I need not go in to any explanation of the heel and toe technique now. Forgive me for being so impertannent.
Wait till I tell everyone I post with a living legend.
Any and all advise is great and well taken. There are many out there that have forgotten more than I'll ever know. Without the help from so many as you get here, the learning curve would be way harder than it already is. Advise just gives more options to check out in case you've missed or didn't think of something. :-)
Legend ? Yea right, maybe in my own mind. :-) (what's left of it anyway) I'm just like the rest of us that own a Pantera....No big deal.
He was just a friend many years ago that I happened to race and play with. Just another guy like the rest of us at the track and shop. No big deal really. In fact he was very private and didn't like, actually hated being treated any differnetly than anyone else.
QUOTE] Holy Cow!! You raced with McQeen?? I just found me a new hero. Sorry for the suggestion I made earlier. I need not go in to any explanation of the heel and toe technique now. Forgive me for being so impertannent.
Wait till I tell everyone I post with a living legend.[/QUOTE]
Legend ? Yea right, maybe in my own mind. :-) (what's left of it anyway) I'm just like the rest of us that own a Pantera....No big deal.
He was just a friend many years ago that I happened to race and play with. Just another guy like the rest of us at the track and shop. No big deal really. In fact he was very private and didn't like, actually hated being treated any differnetly than anyone else.
QUOTE] Holy Cow!! You raced with McQeen?? I just found me a new hero. Sorry for the suggestion I made earlier. I need not go in to any explanation of the heel and toe technique now. Forgive me for being so impertannent.
Wait till I tell everyone I post with a living legend.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks Coz. This is what makes you such a great poster and pillar of the Pantera community. But getting back to your transaxle problem have you kind of looked aroun at what others might work? I think the newer Corvettes used a transaxle, although they had this software thing that makes them skip from first to fourth. Maybe you can adapt something like that?? Or an Olds torinado axle?? Every single front wheel drive car used some kind of transaxle. Surely something would be cheap and adaptable.
If I do this, I will use a Porsche Gearbox. Either a 5 or 6 speed. Going to take the car to the shop in the next few weeks and actually map it out with a couple of different gearboxes they have onhand and see what fits best and what modifications are going to need to be done.
If I go this way, we'll take pictures and process notes throughtout the conversion, keep track of all costs and let everyone know how it runs after it's done.
If I go this way, we'll take pictures and process notes throughtout the conversion, keep track of all costs and let everyone know how it runs after it's done.
quote:Originally posted by DeTom:
Thanks Coz. This is what makes you such a great poster and pillar of the Pantera community. But getting back to your transaxle problem have you kind of looked aroun at what others might work? I think the newer Corvettes used a transaxle, although they had this software thing that makes them skip from first to fourth. Maybe you can adapt something like that?? Or an Olds torinado axle?? Every single front wheel drive car used some kind of transaxle. Surely something would be cheap and adaptable.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Coz:
If I do this, I will use a Porsche Gearbox. Either a 5 or 6 speed. Going to take the car to the shop in the next few weeks and actually map it out with a couple of different gearboxes they have onhand and see what fits best and what modifications are going to need to be done.
If I go this way, we'll take pictures and process notes throughtout the conversion, keep track of all costs and let everyone know how it runs after it's done.
Godspeed to you my good man. Porsche makes some good stuff. A little pricey maybe, but top drawer.
Did you ever drive one of those 917s?? I have heard some things about them and those 930 Can-Am cars that were just plain unbelievable. Like having over 1000 horsepower on tap. It took a real man to drive on of those babies. If you did can you tell me your driving impressions??
If I do this, I will use a Porsche Gearbox. Either a 5 or 6 speed. Going to take the car to the shop in the next few weeks and actually map it out with a couple of different gearboxes they have onhand and see what fits best and what modifications are going to need to be done.
If I go this way, we'll take pictures and process notes throughtout the conversion, keep track of all costs and let everyone know how it runs after it's done.
Godspeed to you my good man. Porsche makes some good stuff. A little pricey maybe, but top drawer.
Did you ever drive one of those 917s?? I have heard some things about them and those 930 Can-Am cars that were just plain unbelievable. Like having over 1000 horsepower on tap. It took a real man to drive on of those babies. If you did can you tell me your driving impressions??
Never had the chance to drive a 917. Drove a 908 for about 6 months at one time. That was really a nice car, a little under powered, but fun to drive.
quote:Originally posted by DeTom:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Coz:
If I do this, I will use a Porsche Gearbox. Either a 5 or 6 speed. Going to take the car to the shop in the next few weeks and actually map it out with a couple of different gearboxes they have onhand and see what fits best and what modifications are going to need to be done.
If I go this way, we'll take pictures and process notes throughtout the conversion, keep track of all costs and let everyone know how it runs after it's done.
Godspeed to you my good man. Porsche makes some good stuff. A little pricey maybe, but top drawer.
Did you ever drive one of those 917s?? I have heard some things about them and those 930 Can-Am cars that were just plain unbelievable. Like having over 1000 horsepower on tap. It took a real man to drive on of those babies. If you did can you tell me your driving impressions??