Does anyone know if the early 911 boxes are built by ZF?
Steve
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
I would think that they were. I had a 89 Corvette, even it had a ZF transmission in it. They made a lot for many companies. ZF is German made.
why do pantera always have zf when other cars like gt 40 repicas & diablos are using audi o16 & 5n and porshe g50 with a few mods done some of these guys are running large hp numbers ?
I guess it has something to do with originality.
I have been discussing other options for replacing the ZF with a couple of Porsche Shop/Racing teams I've known and raced with for years. We are working on a couple alternatives now. Most likely will be one of the G50 series boxes.
We have built Porsches with V8's over the years and have used various Porsche gearboxes in these applications that have withstood 500+ HP easily.
It's something I am seriously considering giving a try.
I have been discussing other options for replacing the ZF with a couple of Porsche Shop/Racing teams I've known and raced with for years. We are working on a couple alternatives now. Most likely will be one of the G50 series boxes.
We have built Porsches with V8's over the years and have used various Porsche gearboxes in these applications that have withstood 500+ HP easily.
It's something I am seriously considering giving a try.
quote:Originally posted by fly:
why do pantera always have zf when other cars like gt 40 repicas & diablos are using audi o16 & 5n and porshe g50 with a few mods done some of these guys are running large hp numbers ?
quote:Originally posted by fly:
why do pantera always have zf when other cars like gt 40 repicas & diablos are using audi o16 & 5n and porshe g50 with a few mods done some of these guys are running large hp numbers ?
Probably because there is not much money to be saved by replacing a ZF with a G50 or something. I know of at least one car that replaced their ZF with a quaife 6-speed sequential transmission that apparently held up to silly horsepower...
Actually Charlie, There are many G50 boxes around that can be had for 2500.00 to 3500.00 with very little milage on them.
And that is way way cheaper than rebuilding a ZF. You can get 3 G-50's for the price of rebuilding a ZF.
The Quaife 6 speed your talking about cost 16 grand.
QUOTE]Probably because there is not much money to be saved by replacing a ZF with a G50 or something. I know of at least one car that replaced their ZF with a quaife 6-speed sequential transmission that apparently held up to silly horsepower...[/QUOTE]
And that is way way cheaper than rebuilding a ZF. You can get 3 G-50's for the price of rebuilding a ZF.
The Quaife 6 speed your talking about cost 16 grand.
QUOTE]Probably because there is not much money to be saved by replacing a ZF with a G50 or something. I know of at least one car that replaced their ZF with a quaife 6-speed sequential transmission that apparently held up to silly horsepower...[/QUOTE]
Are these 6 speed transaxles? Thanks.
Michael
Michael
rebuild labor, gaskets, seals, and ring gear bolts is $1200 if you service your ZF when is first has a problem it's not so painfull but people run them into the ground and do more damage so the cost go up. Lloyd @RBT
But it never is just the ring gear bolts, it's always synro's at 300.00 each, gears at 1200.00 each and a host of other things at major $$$$$$.
Not putting down what you do Lloyd, you are the best at it, no doubt about it. I just don't see where the ZF is worth the money for what it does when there are other choices that do the same thing for less.
The 930 Turbo Boxes will handle the HP and can be had for 3500 to 5000 rebuilt for the 5 speed. They also come in 6 speeds, for a little more. Far less than 16 grand for a 6 speed in Quaife or a ZF.
I suppose if I ever had a ZF that was right from the beginning I might feel different. I have had 2 different ZF's in my car and neither one has been right from the start. But I am in no position to spend the major $$$$$ to find out what a good box would be like. Besides, I've heard too many horror stories already to even take the chance of getting trapped into a major $$$$ bill fixing a ZF after the fact. I'd end up having to sell my car to pay for it. So what would be the point.
I just think it would be easier and cheaper now and in the long run to do a conversion if at all possible. But this is just my personal opinion from putting Porsche boxes to V-8's as I've done several times in the last 20 years.
The box I have now was suppose to have been just rebuilt. Paid 5 grand for it. It needs a 1st/reverse & second gear synro, may even need a gear or two. And that's how it came. That alone would probably cost 5 grand not including anything else that would be found once inside. To scary for me.
I love my Pantera, but not that much, can't afford too when it comes to the ZF. It seems to be the weakest and most expensive part of the Pantera.
I sincerely don't mean to offend anyone here, just saying what's on my mind, what I am being faced with and what I am about to deal with one way or another. Most of you guys know who I am and know that I would give the shirt off my back for any of you and our cars, so I hope you understand I am not attacking anyone here, specially Lloyd who has every right to make a living and do what he does so well.
This is probably the worst time I've ever had to deal with fixing my Pantera, for me anyway, all I can do is cringe at the thought of sending my ZF anywhere to be fixed.
Unless I figure out something, this could very well be the parting point for me and my Pantera.
Not putting down what you do Lloyd, you are the best at it, no doubt about it. I just don't see where the ZF is worth the money for what it does when there are other choices that do the same thing for less.
The 930 Turbo Boxes will handle the HP and can be had for 3500 to 5000 rebuilt for the 5 speed. They also come in 6 speeds, for a little more. Far less than 16 grand for a 6 speed in Quaife or a ZF.
I suppose if I ever had a ZF that was right from the beginning I might feel different. I have had 2 different ZF's in my car and neither one has been right from the start. But I am in no position to spend the major $$$$$ to find out what a good box would be like. Besides, I've heard too many horror stories already to even take the chance of getting trapped into a major $$$$ bill fixing a ZF after the fact. I'd end up having to sell my car to pay for it. So what would be the point.
I just think it would be easier and cheaper now and in the long run to do a conversion if at all possible. But this is just my personal opinion from putting Porsche boxes to V-8's as I've done several times in the last 20 years.
The box I have now was suppose to have been just rebuilt. Paid 5 grand for it. It needs a 1st/reverse & second gear synro, may even need a gear or two. And that's how it came. That alone would probably cost 5 grand not including anything else that would be found once inside. To scary for me.
I love my Pantera, but not that much, can't afford too when it comes to the ZF. It seems to be the weakest and most expensive part of the Pantera.
I sincerely don't mean to offend anyone here, just saying what's on my mind, what I am being faced with and what I am about to deal with one way or another. Most of you guys know who I am and know that I would give the shirt off my back for any of you and our cars, so I hope you understand I am not attacking anyone here, specially Lloyd who has every right to make a living and do what he does so well.
This is probably the worst time I've ever had to deal with fixing my Pantera, for me anyway, all I can do is cringe at the thought of sending my ZF anywhere to be fixed.
Unless I figure out something, this could very well be the parting point for me and my Pantera.
quote:Originally posted by Lloyd Butfoy:
rebuild labor, gaskets, seals, and ring gear bolts is $1200 if you service your ZF when is first has a problem it's not so painfull but people run them into the ground and do more damage so the cost go up. Lloyd @RBT
Sorry to hear about your troubles Coz. Like the majority of Pantera owners, my ZF experience has been very, very positive! I replaced the seals and verified that it was safety wired when I first got the car. Although we have a number of great ZF repair folks supporting the Pantera, like Lloyd Butfoy, I did that work myself. For preventive maintenance, I just change the gear oil, keep the shift linkage lubed and check the clutch adjustment and it works great. The ZF is one of the most bullet proof parts on the Pantera and the -2 close ratio gearing is absolutely fantastic. When I first got interested in owning a Pantera the fact that it had a ZF and 351C power gave me a lot of confidence that it was the right exotic for me. The stunning looks and sound helped a little too! I realize that all this positive talk is not a big help to your situation but I just wanted you to know that what you are going through is unusual.
COZ, no man, don't give up. You are one of my favorite guys here. It seems to me more and more cars are coming out with transaxle designs even if they have a front engine. Please dude, don't quite cause sooner or later they will be available and adaptable to our cars. Heck if you want, maybe we can work out a real cheapo design. We could take a C-6 and run it underneath a straight axle 9 inch ford rear end with the input shaft facing backwards. Then run either straight tooth gears or a chain drive to hook them up. We may have to sit the motor a lot lower to line things up, but lower is better anyway. Don't bail now when we have a visual on the runway. 
Thanks Mike. Other than the ZF, it's been a great car and I've had a great time with it in every way. Met a lot of great, I mean GREAT people because of this car. But I never have had a good ZF from day one in this car and have had 2 in it.
Right now it shifts without grinding as long as I am slow shifting into second going forward. All other forward gears are fine. When down shifting, I have to go very, very slow into second and give it a chance to whine down before going into gear and 1st is none at all unless I am stopped. I get what feels like a slip and clunking noise occasionally when going from backing up to going forward. Now I think I'm also grtting a vibration in it as well. I'm at a point with it I don't trust the ZF anymore and just waiting for it to finally stop working altogether.
I'm going to pull it over the next couple of weeks and check my clutch disc, pressure plate, T/O bearing and the flywheel and see if anything is going on there. If need be, I will replace everything there. But this clutch only has maybe 8000 miles on it. I'll pull the ZF bottom plate and the side plates and see if if there is anything obvious going on. I have replaced the Slave, Master and adjusted the peddles, master linkage and bleed and adjusted the clutch a 100 times. I am getting 1" of throw at the slave piston and .40 gap between the disk and flywheel. However I notice 2 seperations on the disk, one at the flywheel and one in the disk. I've talk to Greorge at MeLoed and he tells me it's not a seperating disk because it goes into first at a stop so it's disengaging. And he's probably right considering it does shift. I have had others look at it and tell me it couldn't be adjusted any better than I've done 100 times. Other than that the only choice I would have is to send the ZF out and have it rebuilt and I can't afford the major bill that is going to cost. I go into shock when I even think about it. I have changed the oil every 10 months in the last 5 years and am using Redline now. Still doesn't make a difference. The ZF has been the most fustrating part of this car for me and will probably be the straw the breaks the camels back unless I can work something out with one of the Porsche racing teams/shops I've known for years and do a conversion. I'm working on a deal to get it done on a trial basis and pay as I go plan. It's the only way I'll get this gearbox problem fixed once and for all since I don't have another 6 to 10 grand to throw at it out of pocket. I won't keep this car just to have it sit in my garage undrivable because of a gearbox, it will be time to take the loss and just move on to something different. If this one goes, I'll probably build another Porsche that just doesn't have the problems the Pantera does. It's a bitch after having come so far and spent so much money on this car. It's very fustrating and very dishearting. Such is life. :-)
Thanks Mike for caring. The people involved have been the greatest part of owning a Pantera without a doubt.
Thanks DeTom. With or without the car, I'm not going anywhere....
Besides, I'm the VP for the Phoenix Chapter of POCA and have committed to doing the POCA Raffle again next year.. :-) I may give up the car, but I will never give up the friends I've made because of the car. That would be a bigger loss than giving up the car to me.
Right now it shifts without grinding as long as I am slow shifting into second going forward. All other forward gears are fine. When down shifting, I have to go very, very slow into second and give it a chance to whine down before going into gear and 1st is none at all unless I am stopped. I get what feels like a slip and clunking noise occasionally when going from backing up to going forward. Now I think I'm also grtting a vibration in it as well. I'm at a point with it I don't trust the ZF anymore and just waiting for it to finally stop working altogether.
I'm going to pull it over the next couple of weeks and check my clutch disc, pressure plate, T/O bearing and the flywheel and see if anything is going on there. If need be, I will replace everything there. But this clutch only has maybe 8000 miles on it. I'll pull the ZF bottom plate and the side plates and see if if there is anything obvious going on. I have replaced the Slave, Master and adjusted the peddles, master linkage and bleed and adjusted the clutch a 100 times. I am getting 1" of throw at the slave piston and .40 gap between the disk and flywheel. However I notice 2 seperations on the disk, one at the flywheel and one in the disk. I've talk to Greorge at MeLoed and he tells me it's not a seperating disk because it goes into first at a stop so it's disengaging. And he's probably right considering it does shift. I have had others look at it and tell me it couldn't be adjusted any better than I've done 100 times. Other than that the only choice I would have is to send the ZF out and have it rebuilt and I can't afford the major bill that is going to cost. I go into shock when I even think about it. I have changed the oil every 10 months in the last 5 years and am using Redline now. Still doesn't make a difference. The ZF has been the most fustrating part of this car for me and will probably be the straw the breaks the camels back unless I can work something out with one of the Porsche racing teams/shops I've known for years and do a conversion. I'm working on a deal to get it done on a trial basis and pay as I go plan. It's the only way I'll get this gearbox problem fixed once and for all since I don't have another 6 to 10 grand to throw at it out of pocket. I won't keep this car just to have it sit in my garage undrivable because of a gearbox, it will be time to take the loss and just move on to something different. If this one goes, I'll probably build another Porsche that just doesn't have the problems the Pantera does. It's a bitch after having come so far and spent so much money on this car. It's very fustrating and very dishearting. Such is life. :-)
Thanks Mike for caring. The people involved have been the greatest part of owning a Pantera without a doubt.
Thanks DeTom. With or without the car, I'm not going anywhere....
Besides, I'm the VP for the Phoenix Chapter of POCA and have committed to doing the POCA Raffle again next year.. :-) I may give up the car, but I will never give up the friends I've made because of the car. That would be a bigger loss than giving up the car to me.
Coz, I know this may sound insulting and I don't mean for it to, but have you rechecked your linkage?? I have been working on mine for two months now and tonight I am putting in a new trunion bearing. I do know that if you don't have quite enough forward throw it will grind. Also I know it is a pain, but I have always been told to double clutch the ZF as the synchroes back in the day were nothing like a modern transmission. Remember how Steve Mcqueen had to shift his Mustang back in the Bullet movie?? That is just the way it was done.
Please just try moving your linkage forward just a skoosh and see what she does???
Please just try moving your linkage forward just a skoosh and see what she does???
Yes DeTom. Have adjusted the linkage several times as well and have a new Trunion bearing in it. Everything is as it should be adjustment wise.
On a side note, many, many years ago I used to race Porsches with Steve McQueen in California. Got to know him pretty well over the years. It's really ashame he died so young. he was a great guy when you got to know him.
We used and raced for the same shop, Max Bochoski's. (Can't remember Max's correct spelling of his last name :-)
On a side note, many, many years ago I used to race Porsches with Steve McQueen in California. Got to know him pretty well over the years. It's really ashame he died so young. he was a great guy when you got to know him.
We used and raced for the same shop, Max Bochoski's. (Can't remember Max's correct spelling of his last name :-)
quote:Originally posted by Coz:
Yes DeTom. Have adjusted the linkage several times as well and have a new Trunion bearing in it. Everything is as it should be adjustment wise.
On a side note, many, many years ago I used to race Porsches with Steve McQueen in California. Got to know him pretty well over the years. It's really ashame he died so young. he was a great guy when you got to know him.
We used and raced for the same shop, Max Bochoski's. (Can't remember Max's correct spelling of his last name :-)
Holy Cow!! You raced with McQeen?? I just found me a new hero. Sorry for the suggestion I made earlier. I need not go in to any explanation of the heel and toe technique now. Forgive me for being so impertannent.
Wait till I tell everyone I post with a living legend.
Any and all advise is great and well taken. There are many out there that have forgotten more than I'll ever know. Without the help from so many as you get here, the learning curve would be way harder than it already is. Advise just gives more options to check out in case you've missed or didn't think of something. :-)
Legend ? Yea right, maybe in my own mind. :-) (what's left of it anyway) I'm just like the rest of us that own a Pantera....No big deal.
He was just a friend many years ago that I happened to race and play with. Just another guy like the rest of us at the track and shop. No big deal really. In fact he was very private and didn't like, actually hated being treated any differnetly than anyone else.
QUOTE] Holy Cow!! You raced with McQeen?? I just found me a new hero. Sorry for the suggestion I made earlier. I need not go in to any explanation of the heel and toe technique now. Forgive me for being so impertannent.
Wait till I tell everyone I post with a living legend.[/QUOTE]
Legend ? Yea right, maybe in my own mind. :-) (what's left of it anyway) I'm just like the rest of us that own a Pantera....No big deal.
He was just a friend many years ago that I happened to race and play with. Just another guy like the rest of us at the track and shop. No big deal really. In fact he was very private and didn't like, actually hated being treated any differnetly than anyone else.
QUOTE] Holy Cow!! You raced with McQeen?? I just found me a new hero. Sorry for the suggestion I made earlier. I need not go in to any explanation of the heel and toe technique now. Forgive me for being so impertannent.
Wait till I tell everyone I post with a living legend.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks Coz. This is what makes you such a great poster and pillar of the Pantera community. But getting back to your transaxle problem have you kind of looked aroun at what others might work? I think the newer Corvettes used a transaxle, although they had this software thing that makes them skip from first to fourth. Maybe you can adapt something like that?? Or an Olds torinado axle?? Every single front wheel drive car used some kind of transaxle. Surely something would be cheap and adaptable.
If I do this, I will use a Porsche Gearbox. Either a 5 or 6 speed. Going to take the car to the shop in the next few weeks and actually map it out with a couple of different gearboxes they have onhand and see what fits best and what modifications are going to need to be done.
If I go this way, we'll take pictures and process notes throughtout the conversion, keep track of all costs and let everyone know how it runs after it's done.
If I go this way, we'll take pictures and process notes throughtout the conversion, keep track of all costs and let everyone know how it runs after it's done.
quote:Originally posted by DeTom:
Thanks Coz. This is what makes you such a great poster and pillar of the Pantera community. But getting back to your transaxle problem have you kind of looked aroun at what others might work? I think the newer Corvettes used a transaxle, although they had this software thing that makes them skip from first to fourth. Maybe you can adapt something like that?? Or an Olds torinado axle?? Every single front wheel drive car used some kind of transaxle. Surely something would be cheap and adaptable.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Coz:
If I do this, I will use a Porsche Gearbox. Either a 5 or 6 speed. Going to take the car to the shop in the next few weeks and actually map it out with a couple of different gearboxes they have onhand and see what fits best and what modifications are going to need to be done.
If I go this way, we'll take pictures and process notes throughtout the conversion, keep track of all costs and let everyone know how it runs after it's done.
Godspeed to you my good man. Porsche makes some good stuff. A little pricey maybe, but top drawer.
Did you ever drive one of those 917s?? I have heard some things about them and those 930 Can-Am cars that were just plain unbelievable. Like having over 1000 horsepower on tap. It took a real man to drive on of those babies. If you did can you tell me your driving impressions??
If I do this, I will use a Porsche Gearbox. Either a 5 or 6 speed. Going to take the car to the shop in the next few weeks and actually map it out with a couple of different gearboxes they have onhand and see what fits best and what modifications are going to need to be done.
If I go this way, we'll take pictures and process notes throughtout the conversion, keep track of all costs and let everyone know how it runs after it's done.
Godspeed to you my good man. Porsche makes some good stuff. A little pricey maybe, but top drawer.
Did you ever drive one of those 917s?? I have heard some things about them and those 930 Can-Am cars that were just plain unbelievable. Like having over 1000 horsepower on tap. It took a real man to drive on of those babies. If you did can you tell me your driving impressions??
Never had the chance to drive a 917. Drove a 908 for about 6 months at one time. That was really a nice car, a little under powered, but fun to drive.
quote:Originally posted by DeTom:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Coz:
If I do this, I will use a Porsche Gearbox. Either a 5 or 6 speed. Going to take the car to the shop in the next few weeks and actually map it out with a couple of different gearboxes they have onhand and see what fits best and what modifications are going to need to be done.
If I go this way, we'll take pictures and process notes throughtout the conversion, keep track of all costs and let everyone know how it runs after it's done.
Godspeed to you my good man. Porsche makes some good stuff. A little pricey maybe, but top drawer.
Did you ever drive one of those 917s?? I have heard some things about them and those 930 Can-Am cars that were just plain unbelievable. Like having over 1000 horsepower on tap. It took a real man to drive on of those babies. If you did can you tell me your driving impressions??
Coz, the prices you are talking about for rebuilding ZF's sounds very very high to me. Much higher than anything I've ever heard of. Don't give up yet, I think you'll find everyone here believes the ZF to be the absolute best thing on the car. Yes, expensive, but not expensive enough I would replace it with 5 and 6 grand Porsche trannys, which I feel to be VERY expensive in relation to the ZF.
Synro's are 300.00 each, gears are 1200.00 each, just ask Lloyd. Then there is the other parts that aren't any cheaper.
I have talked to several people that have had their boxes worked on and got hammerd with 6000.00 to 8000.00 bills.
It's not so much the labor, Lloyd is very reasonable on that. It's the parts that are the killer.
No Kevin, it's not normal. Sorry to be the one to tell you that....
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Matt Bradley:
Coz, the prices you are talking about for rebuilding ZF's sounds very very high to me.
I have talked to several people that have had their boxes worked on and got hammerd with 6000.00 to 8000.00 bills.
It's not so much the labor, Lloyd is very reasonable on that. It's the parts that are the killer.
No Kevin, it's not normal. Sorry to be the one to tell you that....
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Matt Bradley:
Coz, the prices you are talking about for rebuilding ZF's sounds very very high to me.
ASk Lloyd What, you have never brought your box direct to me. Someone JACKED UP the INVOICE if you got charged that much, I will sell a Brand new ZF with your choice ratios for $8800.00
Do you take trade in's Lloyd ?
How much are your syncro's and gear sets then ?
How much are your syncro's and gear sets then ?
quote:Originally posted by Lloyd Butfoy:
ASk Lloyd What, you have never brought your box direct to me. Someone JACKED UP the INVOICE if you got charged that much, I will sell a Brand new ZF with your choice ratios for $8800.00
quote:Originally posted by Lloyd Butfoy:
ASk Lloyd What, you have never brought your box direct to me. Someone JACKED UP the INVOICE if you got charged that much, I will sell a Brand new ZF with your choice ratios for $8800.00
That is half the price as what I was told it would cost. I remember hearing it was 15 grand for a new one and ten grand for a rebuild. My wife told me if anything goes south on the tranny we will have to sell the car for scrap. (She hates the car anyway and would love to see a car crusher go to work on it).
Me too DeTom. Except I've been told the 6 speed new is about 16 grand. Many have told me that their rebuilds have cost them 6000.00+ that needed a couple gears and syncro's.
Guess the saying Believe none of what you hear and 1/2 of what you see applies to rebuilding the ZF if you hear it from anyone but Lloyd.
[/QUOTE]
That is half the price as what I was told it would cost. I remember hearing it was 15 grand for a new one and ten grand for a rebuild. My wife told me if anything goes south on the tranny we will have to sell the car for scrap. (She hates the car anyway and would love to see a car crusher go to work on it).[/QUOTE]
Guess the saying Believe none of what you hear and 1/2 of what you see applies to rebuilding the ZF if you hear it from anyone but Lloyd.
[/QUOTE]
That is half the price as what I was told it would cost. I remember hearing it was 15 grand for a new one and ten grand for a rebuild. My wife told me if anything goes south on the tranny we will have to sell the car for scrap. (She hates the car anyway and would love to see a car crusher go to work on it).[/QUOTE]
Synchro are $225 and gear sets are $900 no trade in's. REMEMBER you can always call and ask. (714)516-1216 RBT
This is great news. I won't have to have my car crushed after all. Still I hope my ZF holds up untill I get my second morgatge paid off from replaceing the motor. I think by then my wife will be talking to me again. 
Still I hope my ZF holds up untill I get my second morgatge paid off from replaceing the motor. I think by then my wife will be talking to me again.
Thanks Lloyd....Maybe it's not so scary after all. I'll be calling you.
Thanks.
Thanks.
quote:Originally posted by Lloyd Butfoy:
Synchro are $225 and gear sets are $900 no trade in's. REMEMBER you can always call and ask. (714)516-1216 RBT
quote:Originally posted by DeTom:
This is great news. I won't have to have my car crushed after all.
Coz. So in the end, I guess you were just thinking aloud! I often find that our wonderful Pantera vendors have simple and cost effective solutions for us. Thank goodness for our vendors and great news for you!
Mike
Yes Mike. Was going on what I'd been hearing for the last year from others and figured it would be easier to just bring it out in the open and see what others had to say.
Great news, absoultely.... bad news, still can't afford to have my ZF rebuilt. Just don't have the cash to throw into right now. My car is my daily driver, when it's down, so am I. I don't even own a second car. Don't want one. In all of the 8 or 9 Porsches, 2 Ferrari's, 2 Lamborghini and 2 Pantera's I've owened in the last 38 years, they have all been daily drivers. If they can't be or become too big a pain in the butt, then I get rid of them. I've had this one since 2000, longer than I've ever owned any car like this, and I can tell you for sure, it's been a piece of work and very fustrating at times. I've put up with more from this car than I have any others I've ever owned. I almost feel that I have had to rebuild this car, wait, I pretty much have, it's still not done and I really don't believe it ever will be anymore.. It might have been easier to have just gone with my fisrt thought which was to by a GT40 kit back in 2000. I look back on all the money spent, rebuilds, time, upgrades, redo's and everything else owning this car has put me through and cost me. I wish I had just bought a GT 40 kit which I was going to do before buying this car and built my own from the ground up. Which I will finally do if I sell this one. Like I said, looking back, I wish I would have gone that way now rather than straighten out someone else's nightmare. Then I can set it up the way I want right from the beginning using the drivetrain and parts I know work right from the beginning. Of course, I'll finally have to break down and by a second car which would become my first car for awhile if and when I do this :-)
Going to pull the box next week and see what's going on with the clutch set up, I really think this is where my problem is, well, I'm hoping anyway. I'll have it out in a matter of hours, a day for getting parts if I need them and back in the next day. a 3 day time period. Will also check the ring gear bolts and pull the side covers and see if there is anything noticable going on. If it's not the problem, I'll just drive it carefully as long as I can until the ZF dies and then decide if I sell the car as is or work out the deal with a conversion to a Porsche box and keep the ZF to take apart and learn from over time as I go through it myself.
It's the only part of the car I haven't been into, so maybe it's time for that too. If I had to pay the vendors to do all my work, I'd be even broker than I am now driving my Pantera. It's been that way with all my cars. But really with me, my enjoyment comes from working on it as much as driving it, most of the time anyway :-)
But I agree, the vendors most of the time are what keep us going and on the road. As with all vendors, no matter what you drive. But the Pantera vendors do go that extra mile considering these cars are 30+ years old. They are great people.
Great news, absoultely.... bad news, still can't afford to have my ZF rebuilt. Just don't have the cash to throw into right now. My car is my daily driver, when it's down, so am I. I don't even own a second car. Don't want one. In all of the 8 or 9 Porsches, 2 Ferrari's, 2 Lamborghini and 2 Pantera's I've owened in the last 38 years, they have all been daily drivers. If they can't be or become too big a pain in the butt, then I get rid of them. I've had this one since 2000, longer than I've ever owned any car like this, and I can tell you for sure, it's been a piece of work and very fustrating at times. I've put up with more from this car than I have any others I've ever owned. I almost feel that I have had to rebuild this car, wait, I pretty much have, it's still not done and I really don't believe it ever will be anymore.. It might have been easier to have just gone with my fisrt thought which was to by a GT40 kit back in 2000. I look back on all the money spent, rebuilds, time, upgrades, redo's and everything else owning this car has put me through and cost me. I wish I had just bought a GT 40 kit which I was going to do before buying this car and built my own from the ground up. Which I will finally do if I sell this one. Like I said, looking back, I wish I would have gone that way now rather than straighten out someone else's nightmare. Then I can set it up the way I want right from the beginning using the drivetrain and parts I know work right from the beginning. Of course, I'll finally have to break down and by a second car which would become my first car for awhile if and when I do this :-)
Going to pull the box next week and see what's going on with the clutch set up, I really think this is where my problem is, well, I'm hoping anyway. I'll have it out in a matter of hours, a day for getting parts if I need them and back in the next day. a 3 day time period. Will also check the ring gear bolts and pull the side covers and see if there is anything noticable going on. If it's not the problem, I'll just drive it carefully as long as I can until the ZF dies and then decide if I sell the car as is or work out the deal with a conversion to a Porsche box and keep the ZF to take apart and learn from over time as I go through it myself.
It's the only part of the car I haven't been into, so maybe it's time for that too. If I had to pay the vendors to do all my work, I'd be even broker than I am now driving my Pantera. It's been that way with all my cars. But really with me, my enjoyment comes from working on it as much as driving it, most of the time anyway :-)
But I agree, the vendors most of the time are what keep us going and on the road. As with all vendors, no matter what you drive. But the Pantera vendors do go that extra mile considering these cars are 30+ years old. They are great people.
I look forward to someday being able to buy the COZ ULTRA transaxle for Panteras. An infinitly variable wonderment that is garunteed to 12,000 horsepower and enables an unlimited top end.
When you find one, be sure to let us all know.
quote:Originally posted by DeTom:
I look forward to someday being able to buy the COZ ULTRA transaxle for Panteras. An infinitly variable wonderment that is garunteed to 12,000 horsepower and enables an unlimited top end.
Coz,
You're breakin' my heart. I won't change your mind, but I can't imagine any of those cars you've owned (except for the Porsches) being your every day driver: dropping the kids off at school, taking gramps to the doctor, sitting in rush hour traffic, rainstorms and all ther other things that would kill me, or my Pantera. But all I've spent on ZF in the past 20 years or so was $3,000 for the following:
2nd Gear
Thrust Washer
Split Shim
Bearing Bushing
Synchro Body
Thrust Washer
4th Gear Set
5th Gear Set
Safety Wire Kit
Gasket and Seal Kit
Stainless Vent Tube
You're breakin' my heart. I won't change your mind, but I can't imagine any of those cars you've owned (except for the Porsches) being your every day driver: dropping the kids off at school, taking gramps to the doctor, sitting in rush hour traffic, rainstorms and all ther other things that would kill me, or my Pantera. But all I've spent on ZF in the past 20 years or so was $3,000 for the following:
2nd Gear
Thrust Washer
Split Shim
Bearing Bushing
Synchro Body
Thrust Washer
4th Gear Set
5th Gear Set
Safety Wire Kit
Gasket and Seal Kit
Stainless Vent Tube
I'm OK Deeb. Just one of those down times when it seems everything goes wrong at the same time when cash on hand is low. The Ferrari's & Lamborhini's didn't work out at all as daily drivers, that's why I got rid of them. All the Porsches did very well as daily drivers. The Pantera has been doing ok as well up until recently, but I am working on fixing that problem right now.
Took it over to a friends house today that custom builds ZF's for Corvette's and he took a look at was going on. Different ZF in the Corvette, but he knows both types very well. He builds about 50 Corvette boxes a year. Without going inside yet, he believes I may have a seperating clutch disc as I expected, He also thinks I may have a problem with the passenger side output drive axle, drive gear, pinon gear or cross shaft and that assembly area and possibly a 1st & 2nd gear Synchro's. He's not real sure yet and won't really know anything until he get's inside. But he's going to go through it for me while I watch, help and learn. The best part about it is he lives 30 miles from my house and he has a 1st class shop on his property.
So I am going to wait until we have it out and a part before making any decisions of what course of direction I'm going to take next as to doing a conversion or fixing the ZF. It's a real pity the Corvette ZF wouldn't work in the Pantera. They can be had all day long, very custom built with several enhancements for 3500.00 complete.
I plan on pulling it next week and the adventure will begin.
You've made out real well with the work you've had done. It must have been some time ago that you had all this done for 3000.00. The 3 gear sets and synchro alone today would cost you 2925.00 plus the 1200.00 for the labor, per Lloyd's post about pricing. Today that would cost over 4100.00 without the other parts you mentioned.
I haven't given up yet on the ZF.... :-)
Took it over to a friends house today that custom builds ZF's for Corvette's and he took a look at was going on. Different ZF in the Corvette, but he knows both types very well. He builds about 50 Corvette boxes a year. Without going inside yet, he believes I may have a seperating clutch disc as I expected, He also thinks I may have a problem with the passenger side output drive axle, drive gear, pinon gear or cross shaft and that assembly area and possibly a 1st & 2nd gear Synchro's. He's not real sure yet and won't really know anything until he get's inside. But he's going to go through it for me while I watch, help and learn. The best part about it is he lives 30 miles from my house and he has a 1st class shop on his property.
So I am going to wait until we have it out and a part before making any decisions of what course of direction I'm going to take next as to doing a conversion or fixing the ZF. It's a real pity the Corvette ZF wouldn't work in the Pantera. They can be had all day long, very custom built with several enhancements for 3500.00 complete.
I plan on pulling it next week and the adventure will begin.
You've made out real well with the work you've had done. It must have been some time ago that you had all this done for 3000.00. The 3 gear sets and synchro alone today would cost you 2925.00 plus the 1200.00 for the labor, per Lloyd's post about pricing. Today that would cost over 4100.00 without the other parts you mentioned.
I haven't given up yet on the ZF.... :-)
quote:Originally posted by deeb:
Coz,
You're breakin' my heart. I won't change your mind, but I can't imagine any of those cars you've owned (except for the Porsches) being your every day driver: dropping the kids off at school, taking gramps to the doctor, sitting in rush hour traffic, rainstorms and all ther other things that would kill me, or my Pantera. But all I've spent on ZF in the past 20 years or so was $3,000 for the following:
2nd Gear
Thrust Washer
Split Shim
Bearing Bushing
Synchro Body
Thrust Washer
4th Gear Set
5th Gear Set
Safety Wire Kit
Gasket and Seal Kit
Stainless Vent Tube
May I offer a little different way of thinking? I'll offer some stories (experiences) and give the moral of the story...how to think about it.
I have two vehicles, a Pantera and a Toyota. One's for fun the other for transportation. The transportation vehicle, the Toyota, is just to get from point A to point B and back everyday, unless I decide I want to four wheel it once in a while, which isn't often. It's desirable qualities are reliability, economy, resale value, comfort, visibility, easy to drive, and it's got the style package, TRD stuff, options, so I think it's got some style too. I pulled the front wheels and brake calipers last weekend to put new disk brake pads on before the old ones wore down and harmed the rotors. At 60,700 miles, the front calipers were 65% as thick as the new brake pads I was going to install, so they were 35% worn down. I didn't need to replace them, but will, only I can wait a couple of years before I do it and still I'll have 50% wear only.
So I drive the Toyota easy in traffic, don't rev it too high, don't race to the next stop light, since I've got them all timed out already and 5 mph over the speed limit gets me green lights all the way there and back, usually. It keeps wear on my machine to a minimum, keeps me from having virtually any maintenence costs, keeps my driving record clean, and keeps me out of accidents driving it like that. Good gas mileage too. Just the routine costs of gas, oil changes (4x/yr), air filters (3x), spark plugs (1x), and it's in tip top shape, since I keep it washed and parked in a garage.
The Pantera is for sport. It's to drive, and secondarily all that other stuff, like getting photographed and generally stared at and the awe factor. Sometimes I want to drive it but avoid all the stares, sometimes I like all the attention. What I want to do is avoid getting tickets when I drive it, and people staring at it sometimes makes me want to oblige and show off, like a little performance demo, for the masses stuck bact at the newly green light I was at and they're still at, as they shrink to small dots in my rearview. That's fun. But it can be costly.
I think you see the moral of the stories.
May I be permitted to suggest that you can just double clutch it to get the performance while waiting to do the overhaul? Figure out where the rpm's are that allow the silkiest smooth operation of the ZF, speed/rpm's for each shift point, there's only 5 so it's easy to figure out. Most of the time, drive like that. It's easy on the equipment, and you'll get more miles between overhauls like that. Most of the time, it's just point A to point B anyway, so you may drive it like I drive my Toyota, and get way better service life and economy from your Pantera & ZF. The more I push my cars in the past, the more repairs they needed. And race cars get overhauled from front to rear spoiler between every racing event, polar opposite to the point A to point B vehicle.
And, since I like to get that sport driving adrenaline rush, I'm prepared to track my Pantera and do the obligatory repairs and maintenance which goes with that behavior pattern.
When I do, ultimately, have to R&R my ZF, I'd like to be able to upgrade it to the state-of-the-art, so I'm sort of making a few suggestions to our usual ZF guy to maybe look that direction and see if them triple cone rings can be adapted to the ZF. His bro already did the air shift rapido update to his experimental ZF, and it gnashes gears. So, I know he wants to look around and see if he can get the latest and greatest in his tricked out ZF sport machine.
And even though I sort of drive gently in the Toyota, on cold mornings it doesn't shift as amoothly as it's supposed to. Oil viscosities inhibit the synchros at low temp, so I just wait until it wants to slide in gear easily instead of forcing it. I wish to delay, not accelerate any repairs schedule for my daily driver.
One last story. I drove my very first vehicle until the wheels nearly fell off. An Econoline 200, 1969 Ford Van. I drove it from 150,000 miles until I sold it with 300,000 miles. Back then, I was in love with it and going to keep it forever. I drove it like it was a Pantera, which was what I dreamed of. I had to replace everything, and I mean everything on that van, with the cheeziest of hand tools, too.
No more. I don't even drive my Pantera as hard as I drove that Econoline Van. It would be way too expensive. Unlike the Econoline Van, I've never had my Pantera's wheels airborn! Guess I wanted that van to be a 4x4, like the Baja 1000 racer, along with the Pantera function, along with the daily driver function. I grew up and now think, "If I'm pushing machinery to 100% or 110% of design performance, I should expect 50% to 25% of the 'life expectancy' of a normal vehicle of the same make,model, year, mileage, etc. I also know it's really hard for one vehicle to 'do-it-all' and serve each function well.
Finally, you got a beefy motor, Coz. This means you can put more stress on the ZF's innards, which means you can make it need repair just that much quicker. Just ignore them stares for a while, and don't show everybody what it'll do. Just when you want to, which the more often, the more expensive.
I'm thinkin' "triple cone synchro rings" for speed shiftin' the ZF, that's what I wanna see someday. You too? If you're gonna tear her down, learn all about it, maybe it would be kool to trick it out while doin' all the talkin', learnin' and searchin' and finally the wrenchin'. I don't know if it can be done to a ZF, but I know there's commercially avaiable triple cone ring synchros for the purchase price, just not for the ZF, that I know of.
Just a few ideas for you to kick around is all.
I have two vehicles, a Pantera and a Toyota. One's for fun the other for transportation. The transportation vehicle, the Toyota, is just to get from point A to point B and back everyday, unless I decide I want to four wheel it once in a while, which isn't often. It's desirable qualities are reliability, economy, resale value, comfort, visibility, easy to drive, and it's got the style package, TRD stuff, options, so I think it's got some style too. I pulled the front wheels and brake calipers last weekend to put new disk brake pads on before the old ones wore down and harmed the rotors. At 60,700 miles, the front calipers were 65% as thick as the new brake pads I was going to install, so they were 35% worn down. I didn't need to replace them, but will, only I can wait a couple of years before I do it and still I'll have 50% wear only.
So I drive the Toyota easy in traffic, don't rev it too high, don't race to the next stop light, since I've got them all timed out already and 5 mph over the speed limit gets me green lights all the way there and back, usually. It keeps wear on my machine to a minimum, keeps me from having virtually any maintenence costs, keeps my driving record clean, and keeps me out of accidents driving it like that. Good gas mileage too. Just the routine costs of gas, oil changes (4x/yr), air filters (3x), spark plugs (1x), and it's in tip top shape, since I keep it washed and parked in a garage.
The Pantera is for sport. It's to drive, and secondarily all that other stuff, like getting photographed and generally stared at and the awe factor. Sometimes I want to drive it but avoid all the stares, sometimes I like all the attention. What I want to do is avoid getting tickets when I drive it, and people staring at it sometimes makes me want to oblige and show off, like a little performance demo, for the masses stuck bact at the newly green light I was at and they're still at, as they shrink to small dots in my rearview. That's fun. But it can be costly.
I think you see the moral of the stories.
May I be permitted to suggest that you can just double clutch it to get the performance while waiting to do the overhaul? Figure out where the rpm's are that allow the silkiest smooth operation of the ZF, speed/rpm's for each shift point, there's only 5 so it's easy to figure out. Most of the time, drive like that. It's easy on the equipment, and you'll get more miles between overhauls like that. Most of the time, it's just point A to point B anyway, so you may drive it like I drive my Toyota, and get way better service life and economy from your Pantera & ZF. The more I push my cars in the past, the more repairs they needed. And race cars get overhauled from front to rear spoiler between every racing event, polar opposite to the point A to point B vehicle.
And, since I like to get that sport driving adrenaline rush, I'm prepared to track my Pantera and do the obligatory repairs and maintenance which goes with that behavior pattern.
When I do, ultimately, have to R&R my ZF, I'd like to be able to upgrade it to the state-of-the-art, so I'm sort of making a few suggestions to our usual ZF guy to maybe look that direction and see if them triple cone rings can be adapted to the ZF. His bro already did the air shift rapido update to his experimental ZF, and it gnashes gears. So, I know he wants to look around and see if he can get the latest and greatest in his tricked out ZF sport machine.
And even though I sort of drive gently in the Toyota, on cold mornings it doesn't shift as amoothly as it's supposed to. Oil viscosities inhibit the synchros at low temp, so I just wait until it wants to slide in gear easily instead of forcing it. I wish to delay, not accelerate any repairs schedule for my daily driver.
One last story. I drove my very first vehicle until the wheels nearly fell off. An Econoline 200, 1969 Ford Van. I drove it from 150,000 miles until I sold it with 300,000 miles. Back then, I was in love with it and going to keep it forever. I drove it like it was a Pantera, which was what I dreamed of. I had to replace everything, and I mean everything on that van, with the cheeziest of hand tools, too.
No more. I don't even drive my Pantera as hard as I drove that Econoline Van. It would be way too expensive. Unlike the Econoline Van, I've never had my Pantera's wheels airborn! Guess I wanted that van to be a 4x4, like the Baja 1000 racer, along with the Pantera function, along with the daily driver function. I grew up and now think, "If I'm pushing machinery to 100% or 110% of design performance, I should expect 50% to 25% of the 'life expectancy' of a normal vehicle of the same make,model, year, mileage, etc. I also know it's really hard for one vehicle to 'do-it-all' and serve each function well.
Finally, you got a beefy motor, Coz. This means you can put more stress on the ZF's innards, which means you can make it need repair just that much quicker. Just ignore them stares for a while, and don't show everybody what it'll do. Just when you want to, which the more often, the more expensive.
I'm thinkin' "triple cone synchro rings" for speed shiftin' the ZF, that's what I wanna see someday. You too? If you're gonna tear her down, learn all about it, maybe it would be kool to trick it out while doin' all the talkin', learnin' and searchin' and finally the wrenchin'. I don't know if it can be done to a ZF, but I know there's commercially avaiable triple cone ring synchros for the purchase price, just not for the ZF, that I know of.
Just a few ideas for you to kick around is all.
Yea, I'm driving it really calm right now. Things start to get weird and vibrate at 4000 RPM, so I'm keeping it 3000 RPM until I see what's going on. Letting the clutch out very easy and shifting very slowly. Mine actually shifts better when it's cold than it does when it's warmed up. Go figure.
Probably going to have to actually break down and buy a second car for awhile. :-(
Probably going to have to actually break down and buy a second car for awhile. :-(
re: vibration
Check the harmonic balancer first. Most likely culprit. Excellent discussion re: harmonic balancers in recent Pantera publication. Had that problemo before, and it just gets worse until it gets fixed. Can't even run the car without the harmonic balancer, it'll tear loose the motor if you push it. Not an expensive fix though, for a talented wrench like yourself, Yahoo Buckaroo, You Can Do It! First, though, a little reading up on the subject matter in your favorite publication(s). Yep, you're like Jimi Hendix now: Experienced...wow, gotta paint the Pantera like his guitar, dude! Dig it!
Check the harmonic balancer first. Most likely culprit. Excellent discussion re: harmonic balancers in recent Pantera publication. Had that problemo before, and it just gets worse until it gets fixed. Can't even run the car without the harmonic balancer, it'll tear loose the motor if you push it. Not an expensive fix though, for a talented wrench like yourself, Yahoo Buckaroo, You Can Do It! First, though, a little reading up on the subject matter in your favorite publication(s). Yep, you're like Jimi Hendix now: Experienced...wow, gotta paint the Pantera like his guitar, dude! Dig it!
I'll check it tomorrow. But the vibration I am feeling is coming from the axle area's. But will check to be sure. Thanks Ron.